9 ms·

Memoir of Growing Up Fat Forces France to Look in the Mirror

50 points by SREinSF 9y ago

bsaul 9y ago
As a french, I don't think the blame is upon fat people, but more about obese people. I think the general view on obesity is that it is a health issue you can clearly do something about with just a little bit of will. I have no idea if this view is correct or not from a medical standpoint though. On the other hand, i am a bit skeptical about the "you're fine no matter how you are" mentality in the US regarding obesity. It is a health issue, so it's great not to blame people but saying "you can stay like this for how long as you want" is also a bit weird imho...
- mdanger007 9y ago
  It's a public and personal health issue.
- Pica_soO 9y ago
  Well, if a health issue hits a majority, that majority can change how it is discussed. If a majority where addicted to narcotics, you would get codeine-pride parades and house M.D. T-Shirts.
  - RodgerTheGreat 9y ago
    See: the relationship most modern societies have with caffeine, alcohol, and, to a lesser extent, nicotine.
- Retric 9y ago
  I doubt people's willpower has changed much over time. Yet Obesity rates are in a dramatic upswing worldwide suggesting external forces are playing a major role. Off the top of my head. One possibility is people are eating less nutritious food causing their bodies to crave more food to make up the difference. Another possibility is companies have gotten better at hitting people's reward centers to drive more consumption and thus profits. Another is simply less active lifestyles. Such as the removal of many gym classes and the emergence of video games. Shopping online vs walking around a mall. Etc.
  - vacri 9y ago
    > I doubt people's willpower has changed much over time. I doubt that peoples' capacity for willpower has changed, but that the exercise of that capacity has. There's a lot less personal discipline than there used to be, across the board, and the less you exercise your personal discipline, the harder it is when you try to.
    - blt 9y ago
      ... or maybe not. Parent post's "another possibility" is also a plausible explanation. Your claim is very strong and requires some evidence.
      - vacri 9y ago
        Why are you asking for evidence for my claim, and not the parent's "another possibility"? I'm getting tired of this new fad of dismissing someone's comment by demanding evidence for it.
        trgv 9y ago
        > I doubt that peoples' capacity for willpower has changed, but that the exercise of that capacity has. You say this so matter-of-factly but it's actually quite a claim. I think people are right to call you on it. I understand there is a general feeling that past generations "made do with less" and "had greater moral fiber" and so on, but I'm also a little suspicious of that kind of thinking.
        vacri 9y ago
        Yeah, "I doubt that" is a claim set in concrete that requires support, whereas "A possibility" requires no support for any claim at all. I made no claim about greater moral fiber, but if you think that past generations didn't "make do with less", you're now making an extraordinary against-the-grain claim. So, "give us a citation proving why you should be suspicious of that comment". See how annoying that is?
        9y ago
- aklemm 9y ago
  "you can stay like this for how long as you want" <- That is a very marginal opinion. It's not really, in any broad way, what people think in the states.
  - on_and_off 9y ago
    honest question : What is the mindset in the state ? I have just moved to San Francisco from Paris and I have got to say that the large proportion of severely obese people is a little more than weird to me. In case it is relevant I am 1.90m/6.2ft and weigh 72kgs/160 lb. I slowly gained weight until hitting 84 kgs/185 lb) and decided to lose it all. It took roughly one year (without any real effort other than reducing my rations and avoid junk food) but at my thinnest I was at 69kgs (152 lb). If anything, I should build some more mass. It is very anecdotical, I am only mentioning this because it obviously colors my vision of weight.
    - trgv 9y ago
      There isn't a single mindset about this stuff in the US, or in France I assume. I'm American and I'm bewildered as to how people can be significantly overweight, much less obese. I would note that many/most obese people have tried and failed to reduce their weight (or temporarily succeeded). So it's definitely seen as a highly negative trait. There is a "body positivity" movement here that discourages people from feeling shame about their appearance. Some people see this as a negative thing, with potential health ramifications. I'd also say that obesity in the US varies quite a bit based on geography and income bracket.
    - aklemm 9y ago
      There is a small number of people who would argue any size is fine, and there are a couple of TV shows and spokespeople saying this, but it is a tiny portion of people and media representation. The dominant "real talk" is that we're too fat and that too fat is unhealthy. The dominant, unspoken attitude (as would be the case in France, it seems) is one of active discrimination and lack of mere acceptance of the humanity of obese people.
    - inferiorhuman 9y ago
- aklemm 9y ago
  "it is a health issue you can clearly do something about with just a little bit of will" <- That a little will can solve this seems obvious for thin people, but it doesn't reflect the reality of weight loss. In fact, this is the core of such discrimination; it seems so obvious to a thin person that the fat person is riddled with character flaws. Read up. Look around. If it was that easy, we wouldn't have this problem.
  - system16 9y ago
    The reality is that for the majority of obese people, it's about taking personal responsibility for what you put into your body and how you treat it. I don't think it's a coincidence that virtually every time I see an obese person in a grocery store, their cart is loaded with processed foods that are full of sugar, high fructose corn syrup, and few if any whole fruits, vegetables, grains or meats. People need to realize that just because something says "healthy choice" or "light" on the package, doesn't mean it's good for you and chances are, if it's packaged and processed at all it probably isn't. Obese people don't need to go on starvation diets or hit the gym 5 hours a day, but they should be drinking water instead of soda, and purchasing food with as few ingredients listed on the package as possible, or better yet - no ingredients listed at all because it's not processed.
    - aklemm 9y ago
      This seems much too simplistic.
      - KGIII 9y ago
        I am fit and healthy. So, I can't say how simple it is. I don't know, I'm not in their shoes. But, I'm told it is simple - for the vast majority of people who are overweight. Put fewer calories in than you use and the result is weight loss. Operate at a caloric deficit and the result is less weight. That is it. Note: That is just weight loss and doesn't imply that it is healthy eating. Obviously, it should entail more, but I understand it is pretty simple physically. I was a fat kid but I got chicken pox at the age of 15 and have been the appropriate weight ever since then.
- solidsnack9000 9y ago
  Every personal account I’ve read, suggests it takes a great deal of will. It’s not easy to eat less than you need to eat to sustain your present weight. You also need to change very much what you eat. Recently I weighed myself and found that I was 73.8 kilos. For my height, it is overweight. “Sacre bleu,” I thought (I sometimes think in French), “je suis Américain obèse.”. I bought a scale and made an effort to eat less every day. After a few weeks I realised I had to change my diet — more rice and vegetables and lean meat, less eating out and having dessert with lunch every day... This was a long, stressful period of eight or nine weeks wherein I managed to lose 7 kilos, filled with many reversals, changes of habit, and frank comings to terms with myself.
- justin66 9y ago
  > It is a health issue, so it's great not to blame people but saying "you can stay like this for how long as you want" is also a bit weird imho... Unless someone asked for your opinion about their weight, why would you say anything at all?
- AlisdairO 9y ago
  > with just a little bit of will As a once-fat guy, it's truly frustrating to read this. If there's one thing I could drill into people observing this problem, it's that different things are hard for different people. For myself, losing weight (and keeping it off long term) is by a distance the hardest thing I have ever done. I've done a reasonable range of challenging, willpower-requiring things, and I've been fairly successful academically, professionally, and as a father. The difficulty of any of the things I've done in my life pales in comparison to the challenge of stopping myself overeating (particularly sugary foods). I make no claims that I gain weight more easily than others, but I am quite positive that I want food a lot more than most - similarly, I feel no need to drink to excess, while for others it's a challenge that ends their lives. I don't advocate normalisation of fatness, but I do wish people could manage to avoid being so unpleasant to people who are struggling.
normalthrowaway 9y ago
Sorry, I’m struggling to see the problem in this. Unless you’re genetically predisposed to being overweight, it is caused by diet and lifestyle. We know this. We have all known this for a long time. If you are actively choosing to avoid changing your diet and lifestyle, and the COST of your decision will eventually become something your employer and your fellow citizens must pay, to the point that it will lead to significant strain on finances, why should they support and embrace your behavior? Should we also fake sympathy for smokers? This isn’t a race or gender issue. This is a lifestyle issue. I know my opinion is politically incorrect, but this is what a lot of us are actually thinking. Even if we openly say the opposite.
- valleyer 9y ago
  I find it interesting that you took time to mention the possibility of people being "predisposed to being overweight" yet proceeded to make no other affordance for that possibility in your comment. Is it not possible that most people who are overweight are so predisposed? This would make it not a "lifestyle issue". In fact, given all the societal and health problems associated with being overweight, I find it hard to assume that many people would be "actively choosing" that path. And yes, many of us who dislike smoking do feel sympathy for smokers. Nicotine is addictive. This is why we spend money on public health programs to help people quit. Same with other kinds of drug addicts.
  - SamReidHughes 9y ago
    It's obvious some people are predisposed to let themselves go the same way others are predisposed to commit criminal acts. That doesn't mean their behavior should be pardoned.
  - Simon_says 9y ago
    There probably is a genetic component to obesity, but that is only a thin sliver of the problem. People 200 years ago had indistinguishable genetics from today yet obesity was rare enough that it was a curiosity. Something has changed in the last 200 years and the list of suspects is basically down to diet and/or exercise. I feel sympathy for nicotine addicts, just as I do for the obese. It's hard to pin down exactly how, but society (meaning some combination of their parents, peers, education, and government) has failed them. Focus on genetic components to obesity isn't technically wrong, but it doesn't help anybody get better.
VeejayRampay 9y ago
I'm French and I hope we do not align with the American cultural doctrine of self-reinforcement, which has, I dare say, slowly drifted towards a worrying train of thought were everything is equal, any opinion has value, any choice you make is to celebrated. By all means, I don't see shaming as the sign of a healthy society and I hope for people never to have to suffer humiliation or belittling, but there should be, in my opinion, a certain level of acknowledgment that being overweight has dire consequences for not only one's health on the middle to long term, but also terrible side-effects in terms of public health and the economy at large. As we're spending dozens of billions caring for diabetes, cholesterol, hypertension, heart attacks and the myriad of other diseases that correlate heavily with the lack of exercise and an unhealthy diet, we're neglecting research, schools and the social fabric that used to make France a great country to live in. The ultimate irony is that we used to have a formula that worked just fine to gift us with one of the highest life expectancies in western societies a few decades ago, before we decided that Burger King, Coca Cola, Subway, McDonald's and KFC really were what we had been missing for so long.
- qntty 9y ago
  On average, obese people are a smaller burden on the health care system because they die quickly (from a heart attack or something similar) rather than the drawn out deaths that people of average weight have. End-of-life care is by far the most expensive (health care wise) phase of a person's life.
  - adventured 9y ago
    You're neglecting to consider scale. That is, the healthcare costs that arise when you have 30% or 40% adult obesity in a nation. People over the age of 65 are less than 15% of the population in the US as a reference. Further, a lot of those obese people still live into their late 60s, 70s, 80s. We've gotten better and better - at a high cost - at keeping them alive despite the consequences of the obesity.
    - qntty 9y ago
      I'm merely stating the conclusions that others have reached, so I certainly haven't considered these points. If you are an expert in the subject then by all means engage with the people who do this sort of research. See my other comment for a source if you're interested.
yodsanklai 9y ago
> citing a book whose French author described with horror seeing Americans eating alone, or at any time of day. > “France is a very rules-based society,” Ms. Saguy said. “There are rules about eating in France, about mealtimes, and you need to follow the rules.” I would call that BS. French people eat whenever they want and nobody cares really. That being said, my personal experience is that French (and Europeans in general) are still much more conscious of what they eat than Americans, which is probably why they are thinner. I was surprised while living in the US to see even very educated people feed their kids with junk food and sodas. However, this is gradually changing. More and more people eat junk food (e.g. Mac Donald's is extremely popular in France) thanks to food corporations propaganda and lobbying. Not surprisingly, obesity rates are increasing. Small relief, obese people won't be discriminated against when we're all fat.
- trgv 9y ago
  > More and more people eat junk food thanks to food corporations propaganda and lobbying. I think there are simpler explanations. I imagine people like the way it tastes plus it's extremely cheap and takes very little time to prepare.
  - lawpoop 9y ago
    Doesn't account for why this would be happening more recently. In the past in Europe, was fast food actually slow, expensive, and not that tasty?
    - drewm1980 9y ago
      Your question assumes the existence of fast food. The closet thing would probably be a bakery or chocolatier, but they don't really compare...
      - lawpoop 9y ago
        So fast food restaurants came into Europe without a concurrent marketing and advertising push? They just built the restaurants and people came, because it was tasty, fast, and cheap?

50 points by SREinSF 9y ago

As a french, I don't think the blame is upon fat people, but more about obese people. I think the general view on obesity is that it is a health issue you can clearly do something about with just a little bit of will. I have no idea if this view is correct or not from a medical standpoint though. On the other hand, i am a bit skeptical about the "you're fine no matter how you are" mentality in the US regarding obesity. It is a health issue, so it's great not to blame people but saying "you can stay like this for how long as you want" is also a bit weird imho...

mdanger007 9y ago
It's a public and personal health issue.
Pica_soO 9y ago
Well, if a health issue hits a majority, that majority can change how it is discussed. If a majority where addicted to narcotics, you would get codeine-pride parades and house M.D. T-Shirts.
- RodgerTheGreat 9y ago
  See: the relationship most modern societies have with caffeine, alcohol, and, to a lesser extent, nicotine.
Retric 9y ago
I doubt people's willpower has changed much over time. Yet Obesity rates are in a dramatic upswing worldwide suggesting external forces are playing a major role. Off the top of my head. One possibility is people are eating less nutritious food causing their bodies to crave more food to make up the difference. Another possibility is companies have gotten better at hitting people's reward centers to drive more consumption and thus profits. Another is simply less active lifestyles. Such as the removal of many gym classes and the emergence of video games. Shopping online vs walking around a mall. Etc.
- vacri 9y ago
  > I doubt people's willpower has changed much over time. I doubt that peoples' capacity for willpower has changed, but that the exercise of that capacity has. There's a lot less personal discipline than there used to be, across the board, and the less you exercise your personal discipline, the harder it is when you try to.
  - blt 9y ago
    ... or maybe not. Parent post's "another possibility" is also a plausible explanation. Your claim is very strong and requires some evidence.
    - vacri 9y ago
      Why are you asking for evidence for my claim, and not the parent's "another possibility"? I'm getting tired of this new fad of dismissing someone's comment by demanding evidence for it.
      - trgv 9y ago
        > I doubt that peoples' capacity for willpower has changed, but that the exercise of that capacity has. You say this so matter-of-factly but it's actually quite a claim. I think people are right to call you on it. I understand there is a general feeling that past generations "made do with less" and "had greater moral fiber" and so on, but I'm also a little suspicious of that kind of thinking.
        vacri 9y ago
        Yeah, "I doubt that" is a claim set in concrete that requires support, whereas "A possibility" requires no support for any claim at all. I made no claim about greater moral fiber, but if you think that past generations didn't "make do with less", you're now making an extraordinary against-the-grain claim. So, "give us a citation proving why you should be suspicious of that comment". See how annoying that is?
      - 9y ago
aklemm 9y ago
"you can stay like this for how long as you want" <- That is a very marginal opinion. It's not really, in any broad way, what people think in the states.
- on_and_off 9y ago
  honest question : What is the mindset in the state ? I have just moved to San Francisco from Paris and I have got to say that the large proportion of severely obese people is a little more than weird to me. In case it is relevant I am 1.90m/6.2ft and weigh 72kgs/160 lb. I slowly gained weight until hitting 84 kgs/185 lb) and decided to lose it all. It took roughly one year (without any real effort other than reducing my rations and avoid junk food) but at my thinnest I was at 69kgs (152 lb). If anything, I should build some more mass. It is very anecdotical, I am only mentioning this because it obviously colors my vision of weight.
  - trgv 9y ago
    There isn't a single mindset about this stuff in the US, or in France I assume. I'm American and I'm bewildered as to how people can be significantly overweight, much less obese. I would note that many/most obese people have tried and failed to reduce their weight (or temporarily succeeded). So it's definitely seen as a highly negative trait. There is a "body positivity" movement here that discourages people from feeling shame about their appearance. Some people see this as a negative thing, with potential health ramifications. I'd also say that obesity in the US varies quite a bit based on geography and income bracket.
  - aklemm 9y ago
    There is a small number of people who would argue any size is fine, and there are a couple of TV shows and spokespeople saying this, but it is a tiny portion of people and media representation. The dominant "real talk" is that we're too fat and that too fat is unhealthy. The dominant, unspoken attitude (as would be the case in France, it seems) is one of active discrimination and lack of mere acceptance of the humanity of obese people.
  - inferiorhuman 9y ago
aklemm 9y ago
"it is a health issue you can clearly do something about with just a little bit of will" <- That a little will can solve this seems obvious for thin people, but it doesn't reflect the reality of weight loss. In fact, this is the core of such discrimination; it seems so obvious to a thin person that the fat person is riddled with character flaws. Read up. Look around. If it was that easy, we wouldn't have this problem.
- system16 9y ago
  The reality is that for the majority of obese people, it's about taking personal responsibility for what you put into your body and how you treat it. I don't think it's a coincidence that virtually every time I see an obese person in a grocery store, their cart is loaded with processed foods that are full of sugar, high fructose corn syrup, and few if any whole fruits, vegetables, grains or meats. People need to realize that just because something says "healthy choice" or "light" on the package, doesn't mean it's good for you and chances are, if it's packaged and processed at all it probably isn't. Obese people don't need to go on starvation diets or hit the gym 5 hours a day, but they should be drinking water instead of soda, and purchasing food with as few ingredients listed on the package as possible, or better yet - no ingredients listed at all because it's not processed.
  - aklemm 9y ago
    This seems much too simplistic.
    - KGIII 9y ago
      I am fit and healthy. So, I can't say how simple it is. I don't know, I'm not in their shoes. But, I'm told it is simple - for the vast majority of people who are overweight. Put fewer calories in than you use and the result is weight loss. Operate at a caloric deficit and the result is less weight. That is it. Note: That is just weight loss and doesn't imply that it is healthy eating. Obviously, it should entail more, but I understand it is pretty simple physically. I was a fat kid but I got chicken pox at the age of 15 and have been the appropriate weight ever since then.
solidsnack9000 9y ago
Every personal account I’ve read, suggests it takes a great deal of will. It’s not easy to eat less than you need to eat to sustain your present weight. You also need to change very much what you eat. Recently I weighed myself and found that I was 73.8 kilos. For my height, it is overweight. “Sacre bleu,” I thought (I sometimes think in French), “je suis Américain obèse.”. I bought a scale and made an effort to eat less every day. After a few weeks I realised I had to change my diet — more rice and vegetables and lean meat, less eating out and having dessert with lunch every day... This was a long, stressful period of eight or nine weeks wherein I managed to lose 7 kilos, filled with many reversals, changes of habit, and frank comings to terms with myself.
justin66 9y ago
> It is a health issue, so it's great not to blame people but saying "you can stay like this for how long as you want" is also a bit weird imho... Unless someone asked for your opinion about their weight, why would you say anything at all?
AlisdairO 9y ago
> with just a little bit of will As a once-fat guy, it's truly frustrating to read this. If there's one thing I could drill into people observing this problem, it's that different things are hard for different people. For myself, losing weight (and keeping it off long term) is by a distance the hardest thing I have ever done. I've done a reasonable range of challenging, willpower-requiring things, and I've been fairly successful academically, professionally, and as a father. The difficulty of any of the things I've done in my life pales in comparison to the challenge of stopping myself overeating (particularly sugary foods). I make no claims that I gain weight more easily than others, but I am quite positive that I want food a lot more than most - similarly, I feel no need to drink to excess, while for others it's a challenge that ends their lives. I don't advocate normalisation of fatness, but I do wish people could manage to avoid being so unpleasant to people who are struggling.

normalthrowaway 9y ago

Sorry, I’m struggling to see the problem in this. Unless you’re genetically predisposed to being overweight, it is caused by diet and lifestyle. We know this. We have all known this for a long time. If you are actively choosing to avoid changing your diet and lifestyle, and the COST of your decision will eventually become something your employer and your fellow citizens must pay, to the point that it will lead to significant strain on finances, why should they support and embrace your behavior? Should we also fake sympathy for smokers? This isn’t a race or gender issue. This is a lifestyle issue. I know my opinion is politically incorrect, but this is what a lot of us are actually thinking. Even if we openly say the opposite.

valleyer 9y ago
I find it interesting that you took time to mention the possibility of people being "predisposed to being overweight" yet proceeded to make no other affordance for that possibility in your comment. Is it not possible that most people who are overweight are so predisposed? This would make it not a "lifestyle issue". In fact, given all the societal and health problems associated with being overweight, I find it hard to assume that many people would be "actively choosing" that path. And yes, many of us who dislike smoking do feel sympathy for smokers. Nicotine is addictive. This is why we spend money on public health programs to help people quit. Same with other kinds of drug addicts.
- SamReidHughes 9y ago
  It's obvious some people are predisposed to let themselves go the same way others are predisposed to commit criminal acts. That doesn't mean their behavior should be pardoned.
- Simon_says 9y ago
  There probably is a genetic component to obesity, but that is only a thin sliver of the problem. People 200 years ago had indistinguishable genetics from today yet obesity was rare enough that it was a curiosity. Something has changed in the last 200 years and the list of suspects is basically down to diet and/or exercise. I feel sympathy for nicotine addicts, just as I do for the obese. It's hard to pin down exactly how, but society (meaning some combination of their parents, peers, education, and government) has failed them. Focus on genetic components to obesity isn't technically wrong, but it doesn't help anybody get better.

VeejayRampay 9y ago

I'm French and I hope we do not align with the American cultural doctrine of self-reinforcement, which has, I dare say, slowly drifted towards a worrying train of thought were everything is equal, any opinion has value, any choice you make is to celebrated. By all means, I don't see shaming as the sign of a healthy society and I hope for people never to have to suffer humiliation or belittling, but there should be, in my opinion, a certain level of acknowledgment that being overweight has dire consequences for not only one's health on the middle to long term, but also terrible side-effects in terms of public health and the economy at large. As we're spending dozens of billions caring for diabetes, cholesterol, hypertension, heart attacks and the myriad of other diseases that correlate heavily with the lack of exercise and an unhealthy diet, we're neglecting research, schools and the social fabric that used to make France a great country to live in. The ultimate irony is that we used to have a formula that worked just fine to gift us with one of the highest life expectancies in western societies a few decades ago, before we decided that Burger King, Coca Cola, Subway, McDonald's and KFC really were what we had been missing for so long.

qntty 9y ago
On average, obese people are a smaller burden on the health care system because they die quickly (from a heart attack or something similar) rather than the drawn out deaths that people of average weight have. End-of-life care is by far the most expensive (health care wise) phase of a person's life.
- adventured 9y ago
  You're neglecting to consider scale. That is, the healthcare costs that arise when you have 30% or 40% adult obesity in a nation. People over the age of 65 are less than 15% of the population in the US as a reference. Further, a lot of those obese people still live into their late 60s, 70s, 80s. We've gotten better and better - at a high cost - at keeping them alive despite the consequences of the obesity.
  - qntty 9y ago
    I'm merely stating the conclusions that others have reached, so I certainly haven't considered these points. If you are an expert in the subject then by all means engage with the people who do this sort of research. See my other comment for a source if you're interested.

yodsanklai 9y ago

> citing a book whose French author described with horror seeing Americans eating alone, or at any time of day. > “France is a very rules-based society,” Ms. Saguy said. “There are rules about eating in France, about mealtimes, and you need to follow the rules.” I would call that BS. French people eat whenever they want and nobody cares really. That being said, my personal experience is that French (and Europeans in general) are still much more conscious of what they eat than Americans, which is probably why they are thinner. I was surprised while living in the US to see even very educated people feed their kids with junk food and sodas. However, this is gradually changing. More and more people eat junk food (e.g. Mac Donald's is extremely popular in France) thanks to food corporations propaganda and lobbying. Not surprisingly, obesity rates are increasing. Small relief, obese people won't be discriminated against when we're all fat.

trgv 9y ago
> More and more people eat junk food thanks to food corporations propaganda and lobbying. I think there are simpler explanations. I imagine people like the way it tastes plus it's extremely cheap and takes very little time to prepare.
- lawpoop 9y ago
  Doesn't account for why this would be happening more recently. In the past in Europe, was fast food actually slow, expensive, and not that tasty?
  - drewm1980 9y ago
    Your question assumes the existence of fast food. The closet thing would probably be a bakery or chocolatier, but they don't really compare...
    - lawpoop 9y ago
      So fast food restaurants came into Europe without a concurrent marketing and advertising push? They just built the restaurants and people came, because it was tasty, fast, and cheap?