9 ms·
Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis
- thetxef 9y agoNational media is crying outloud people are 'adoctrinated' in Catalonia in favour of independence...how that saying? like seeing the mote in one's brother's eye without noticing the beam in one's own.
- Findeton 9y agoBound to happen, to say the least.
- JaumeGreen 9y agoThe sentiment on the street is to keep pushing forward and declare independence. The opposition to this rule is huge (there has been a new huge demostration today). If this happens civil disobedience will grow. There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), but we won't obey what comes from Madrid.
- Findeton 9y agoAccording to a poll from a Catalan newspaper [0] released yesterday, 68% of Catalans prefer regional elections versus an unilateral independence declaration. [0] http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171020/encuesta-cataluna-6368599 http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171020/encuesta-cat...
- JaumeGreen 9y agoThanks for the link, didn't know that. Nonetheless I find that most sources lack my trust. There's campaigning from both sides, but the unionists have a huge influence on all the national media. There's also the big probability that some new elections will have the effect to provide a new Catalan parliament with the same number (at least) of pro-independence elected members. Then that would "solve" nothing.
- notspanishflu 9y agoThat street must be Sesame Street. Seriously now. The catalan goverment is acting illegally, against Spanish and Catalan law. What do you expect? The Spanish government must apply the law.
- JaumeGreen 9y agoThey should start with all the investigated and condemned politicians (yes, including Pujol). Those are part of the reasons to wanting to leave.
- drudru11 9y agoAt one time these little colonies in America acted illegally. They wanted representation with their taxation.
- notspanishflu 9y agoCatalonia has never been a colony.
- yellowapple 9y agoSo?
- notspanishflu 9y agoSo what?
- product50 9y agoExactly my sentiments. What is the point of the constitution if one of the country's region starts disobeying and unilaterally declare independence? These are kind of disobediences which the Spanish government must fight - even if they lose.
- golangnews 9y agoGovernment, and law, is by consent. It is not immutable, universal or objective, and if it loses the consent of a majority the social contract is broken.
- craftyguy 9y ago> There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), So it'll be a massacre? I don't believe that everyone owning firearms is even remotely close to the answer, but nations get super fucking stupid and desperate when folks try to break away from them, even if the break away process is democratic and peaceful.
- cnlevy 9y agoRajoy is not Assad. He knows there are more effective methods than just shooting at demonstrators
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- kobeya 9y ago> There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns) Myanmar has gun controls too. That’s really working out for its populace /s The ignorance and naïveté in this statement is astounding.
- avar 9y ago> We are peaceful people and have no guns. You might be peaceful, but according to Wikipedia Spain has 10.4 guns for every 100 people[1]. You're either entirely wrong, or Catalonia is an extreme statistical outlier when it comes to gun ownership in Spain. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_c...
- macspoofing 9y agoWhat does one have to do with the other?
- pjc50 9y ago> There won't be a civil war It's increasingly clear that the only two possible outcomes are either abandoning the idea altogether (possibly with an overall reduction in autonomy or proscription of the pro-independence parties); or violence. You can see even in this thread that nobody in the rest of Spain is even going to consider the possibility of peaceful secession. It's going to end up like 70s Belfast if people go down this route.
- notspanishflu 9y agoNo, the secessionists movement is deeply fueled with public funds. Now that Spanish government is going to control that, you can expect way less secessionists support.
- icebraining 9y agoHow much would you bet on that?
- notspanishflu 9y agoI don't bet but if you're interested in betting, I saw a thread in Reddit where people are betting 'reddit gold'.
- narag 9y agoI wouldn't bet a cent, not because his reasoning is wrong, but because the premise is wrong. The government doesn't control the main propaganda source: public education. That was transferred to comunidades autónomas more than 30 years ago and nationalists have used it to brainwash people. Did you know that it's impossible to have your children study in Spanish at public schools... in Spain? There were sentences from the Supreme Court and Tribunal Constitucional condemning this situation. Regional government ignored them and central governments did nothing for decades. Other propaganda sources are not going to be controled either. There are a couple of associations, the ones whose leaders are now jailed, that play a central role and, unless illegalized (that I seriously doubt will happen) will still be receiving lots of money from the very same State that they're fighting. Why? Because cutting the financing would mean reforming laws that allow national parties to give money to their own fundations in other parts of Spain. Public funded tv and radio would get new heads, but replacing the fanatics that produce the contents would need dismantling them, that most likely won't happen either. Do you know why this situation seems so confusing? Because spanish governments have done nothing for a very long time. This has allowed nationalists to create the ilusion that they're really almost independent and they only need a little push to get there. Then our current prime minister is known for its "do nothing until there's no other option" style, that made the thugs think it's the moment to make their move.
- pipio21 9y agoThe sentiment in the Street by Independentists. I was in Barcelona 4 days ago. At least 25% of the people there is clearly not independentist. So stop talking the "sentiment in the street" like there is only one "Poble" in Catalunia that wants independence. If there is a fight it is not going to be against Madrid, but Catalans over Catalans.
- JaumeGreen 9y agoWith "the sentiment on the street" I'm referring to the demostrations. Most are pro-independence, and they are always full of people. Unionists are few and with not that many people (except the one on the 8th of October). The "the fight will be catalan VS catalan" is an unionist mantra. People want to vote, not fight. Unionists would love an armed or belligerent pro-independence group, so they could repress us while giving the illusion of being right. That's why our movement will be pacifist.
- notspanishflu 9y ago>Unionists are few and with not that many people (except the one on the 8th of October). Anti-secession supporters has been afraid of Catalan government. Not anymore. >Unionists would love an armed or belligerent pro-independence group No, that's BS. By the way, such group has existed before (Terra Lliure) and nothing changed.
- peter-m80 9y agoI'm catalan and I don't want Independence.
- bassman9000 9y agowe won't obey what comes from Madrid The Constitution, you mean? Good luck when, in your newly forged Republic, some citizens don't want to obey the Rule of Law, because we won't obey what comes from Barcelona
- navigator01 9y agoGood, we can't allow the dissolution of nations.
- tqkxzugoaupvwqr 9y agoWhy not? Let them fork, iterate and improve. They have a strong identity and economy, so they must be doing something right. Maybe being tied to a monolith even hinders their progress? (Just ideas for thought.)
- navigator01 9y agoEveryone on Earth has a petty identity. If we allow secession just so every self-identifying group can 'rule' themselves then we encourage those petty identities when we should be discouraging them and instead encouraging universal humanism.
- TomK32 9y agoGermany is a federated state, stark differences between the regions (the dialects vary a lot, but not as much as the Spanish and Catalan languages differ) but it does work because the government is not centralised like in Spain or France, and the Bundesländer have their say there's a lot of respect for each other. Spain's PP has always shown disrespect to any federalization and autonomy of the spanish regions.
- iagovar 9y agoExcept the government in Spain is not centralised at all. The comparison with France is just... IDK where are you getting this ideas but is mostly the opposite. PP is disrespectful about everything but that doesn't mean that there's no autonomy, there's a reason why every region has an "autonomous government" and are called "autonomous communities", basically because they have that autonomy. More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_communities_of_Spain#Legal_powers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_communities_of_Spai...
- deleted 9y ago
- fiatjaf 9y agoDo you think any other State would allow one of its major sources of income go away like that? I really hope Catalonia makes it.
- rayiner 9y agoI think the US would let California secede.
- skinnymuch 9y agoSorry maybe it's going above my head. Is this sarcasm or there's some context?
- ghaff 9y agoI suspect he’s just saying that if California were to hold a binding referendum to secede, he doesn’t think the Federal government would send in troops to arrest the governor and take over California. I tend to agree although, at this point it’s sufficiently a hypothetical that you would need to know something of the circumstances that made it not a hypothetical to have a good opinion.
- rayiner 9y agoYes, and I think Congress would vote to let California secede.
- skinnymuch 9y agoSo seems like he was more than that with saying congress would vote to have them secede. I don't think the US would send troops of course but they wouldn't just let California secede either. As far as I know precedent says it's illegal to secede in the first place.
- ghaff 9y agoOf course, the default is that no one can secede. There was an unpleasantness in the 1860s over that. But ultimately, if a geographical region won’t do what you want it to do, the alternative is to use force. For example, the Federal government used force to enforce voting rights in the 1960s. If asking nicely, threats, and sanctions don’t work, troops are mostly what you have left.
- bitL 9y agoObligatory "the beatings will continue until morale improves".
- notspanishflu 9y agoSince when applying the law is escalating? All European Union leaders support the rule according a higher law.
- ryanlol 9y ago>Since when applying the law is escalating? When it is escalating.
- jayniz 9y agoWhen shooting peaceful civilians with (illegal) rubber ammunition and kicking them in the face, for example.
- notspanishflu 9y agoSource for that?
- ryanlol 9y agohttps://twitter.com/JordiGraupera/status/914406594779205632 https://twitter.com/JordiGraupera/status/914406594779205632 https://twitter.com/JordiGraupera/status/914408451870265344 https://twitter.com/JordiGraupera/status/914408451870265344 https://twitter.com/LordRennard/status/914434884990652421 https://twitter.com/LordRennard/status/914434884990652421 Here's one of the international observers verifying too
- notspanishflu 9y agoAre you really serious with those 'sources'?
- ryanlol 9y agoSince you couldn’t discredit them, apparently I don’t need to look for better ones. I myself don’t see any particular reason to question Lord Rennard.
- lordnacho 9y agoAssuming there's a group of people who more or less agree to be separate from some larger group, it's hard to think of legitimate reasons why they shouldn't be allowed to secede. Their forefathers having signed an agreement is hardly a convincing reason to hold them in a union they no longer like. Neither are issues of the current political situation ("it would destabilize the region..."). There's still hard questions, though. How do we split the national debt? What about various government assets? Who has a choice about what nation to join? And so on. All hard questions, but none of them seems to undermine the idea that people should be allowed to decide to be separate.
- notspanishflu 9y agoInterestingly enough the same arguments secessionists state for breaking with Spain, they expressly forbid such thing inside Catalonia. V.g. Barcelona can't propose a secession from Catalonia.
- njarboe 9y ago"The people" includes a lot of people who don't want to separate. If 99% want it I would say OK, maybe. Where does one draw the line? Take a look at how the separation of India and Pakistan went if you want to get an idea of how it might go.
- syshum 9y agoHow far do to you extend that? because I highly doubt you can find a single government action, law, policy, or anything where 99% of people agree So then you find that all government is illegitimate? or is your 99% requirement only valid for separation?
- njarboe 9y agoSeparation into a new country is a huge deal. Such a big deal that I don't think any country has a legal mechanism for part of the country to leave. If set up ahead of time maybe 75% or 80% of all eligible voters, would be a good level.
- nadunez 9y ago>The unexpectedly forceful moves by Mr. Rajoy That’s not true. Catalan leaders were given a few days to make it clear whether they had declared the independence or not, because after their joke referendum, they were intentionally vague about what they were going to do. Puigdemont dodged the question again so this is it. They said they want to negotiate with the central government. In my opinion this is simply racketeering, they want a better deal with taxes. This must not stand. Nothing of this would have happened if secessionists wouldn't have had full access to the education and the media of that region since forever. They have been blasting propaganda por decades. Of course this was bound to happen. I work in the media and I know there's no way to get a grant for your small paper/radio station if you don't align with their values. There's a widespread sentiment that Spain "is robbing them". But the truth is that this is just redistributing wealth; many regions of Spain give money and others take. That's how the economy works everywhere.
- farresito 9y agoCool. Let's not negotiate. Consequences? You have a region where 50% of the people are so discontent with the situation that they are willing to go independent. Unsustainable. So you basically give them no option: they can't hold a referendum for an independence, you don't want to find an agreement with them... What kind of government would do that?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- notspanishflu 9y agoFollowing your argument: lets make happy that 50% breaching the law, and lets punish the 50% honoring the law. That doesn't make any sense.
- ryanlol 9y agoSupporting independence isn't breaking the law. Voting for independence isn't breaking the law.
- whatyoucantsay 9y agoThe interesting question is what level of brutality the EU is willing to accept before intervening.
- farresito 9y agoThey won't intervene, as it is 'domestic issues'. They are more than happy to turn a blind eye as long as there's nothing physical, since a hypothetical independence would cause instability in the EU and might give the pro-Independence movement more legitimacy.
- notspanishflu 9y agoThe European Union leaders ain't turning a blind eye, they have showed their express support to the Spanish government, and to the rule of law.
- syshum 9y ago>>and to the rule of law. I have always found it fascinating how strongly people believe "the rule of law" to be the ethical and correct position. To uphold the rule of law no matter what. That the rule of law itself if the goal. No matter what those laws are, no matter if those laws are unethical, immoral, unjust. The rule of law itself is the goal. Not a moral society, not a just society, not a ethical society, but a society of law. Why? Almost every major atrocity in human history was legal under the laws governing the geographic zone they were committed in so why is there such strong support for this concept of "Rule of law"
- notspanishflu 9y agoAgain, we're talking about the rule of law in democratic societies, not totalitarian ones. I don't know the source of your fascination if you don't understand that.
- syshum 9y ago
- baxtr 9y agoI’ve been to Barcelona quite often. People are nice and friendly. One time though when I was out eating dinner with a Spanish friend from Madrid something strange happened: the waiter told her she could not order in Spanish, she needed to speak Catalan, which was totally weird since we ordered in Spanish right before she ordered. But our Spanish was of course quite bad with a foreign accent, he was ok with that. We thought that was quite rude and impolite and ended up dining somewhere else. I definitely don’t know enough to judge the whole thing. However, from what I know, as a European, the secession movement bewilders me. It strangely feels very un-European. How can we unite the continent if we start separating countries? Can we not all just get along together and not care so much about the details of our passport? Which problem is independence solving?
- JaumeGreen 9y agoWhich restaurant? Did you raise a complain? Sorry but these stories ring untrue, given that Barcelona is both a huge touristic destination and most servers speaking Spanish as a rule.
- notspanishflu 9y agoBarcelona's local government has been pretty aggressive against tourism lately. Edit: Ok, is impossible to have a conversation when secessionists are downvoting every comment. Fine. I prefer to post arguments, and sources. http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/talktojazeera/2017/04/barcelona-mayor-city-losing-identity-170412082645192.html http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/talktojazeera/2017/04/ba... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/11643802/Incoming-Barcelona-mayor-wants-to-introduce-tourist-cap.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/11643... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/01/barcelona-anti-tourism-activists-vandalise-bikes-and-bus https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/01/barcelona-anti...
- JaumeGreen 9y agoYou are partly right. Barcelona's major wants to make tourism more manageable because it is considered that too many tourists kill the spirit of the city, increase rent for the citizens too much and, depending on their upbringing, bring fights and low quality tourism to the city. There's also a civil movement against tourism, specially AirBnB, that has made some actions. But that movement is separate from the independence movement. There are people of all factions in that movement, and it's quite smaller than the independence one. The partly is that, at least on the other times this topic has come to hacker news, the brigading was from unionists.
- jseip 9y agoDemocracy is democracy until it's not.
- ardit33 9y agoIt looks like Spain are coming as the bad guys in the whole ordeal, trying to keep their "vassal" state at any cost. Seems like a throwback to feudal times. They could have made a reasonable deal. Referendum would be valid if there is over 50% participation and a super majority 2/3rds approve it (over 66% of YES, for independence). Most likely the independence vote would have lost, people felt they expressed their rights and Spain would move on to deal with their economy and other matters. Squashing referendums with violence made them look bad and lose the moral ground on the international scale and just embolden the separatists (who wants to live under an oppressive regime anyways). Also the EU is coming out as a loser in this case. They demonstrated that they basically don't give a fudge about their citizens (which Catalans are), and just want to preserve the political status quo.
- notspanishflu 9y agoSpanish sovereignty resides in all Spaniards, not just a part of them. It is in the Spanish Constitution. If secessionists lose an election, they'll keep asking for another, and another.
- ardit33 9y agoLol, no, it resides on the folks that live on those states. Constitutions change. (the last change was in 78, right?). Fromer Yougoslavia broke off, as the separate states wanted their own countries. Somewhere was peaceful (Slovenia), and very bloody, (the rest of the states). They are much much better off by themselves right now. Things change, and if Catalonia wants their independence they should.
- notspanishflu 9y agoThe article 1.2 of the Spanish Constitution states: > La soberanía nacional reside en el pueblo español, del que emanan los poderes del Estado. (The national sovereignty resides in the Spanish people, from which emanate the powers of the State.)
- 9y ago
- pipio21 9y agoGiven that "Catalunia leader" has dissolved the Parlament (Catalunia local congress) and declared independence(but saying that he suspended it), it is only logical what the Government has to do. The central Government is not escalating anything, on the contrary, it has been extremely weak. Imagine that some State in the US declares the president of the US has no decisions over his land, and that you follow your own local laws(made by you on the go) instead of the laws of your country. It will not take more than 5 minutes of that for the country to act. The Parlament local laws said that you need two thirds of the Parlament in order to do anything serious. Those guys wanted to declare independence with half the seats plus one. Those seats represent less people that those that were not independentists. In the case of Spain it has taken almost a month to do something, and most of the responsible people are out there free, earning a very good salary for trying to destroy the country. In China when revolution won everything that Chinese elite did was bad, even if they did some things well, like having hygienic manners. As a result, living in China today is extremely disgusting. In Spain the same happens with anything Franco dictatorship did. We always have to do the opposite of what Franco would have done. So because Franco was nationalist and brave(he risked his life over 200 hundred times in battle) politicians believe that democracy needs to be against the nation and weakness the rule. They do not consider that you could be a democracy and take your country seriously. So they made it legal for politicians that want to destroy the system be part of the System. They gave territories more autonomy, a local tv, local police, the education and health system. Local police now is acting like a private independentists police(like the SA and SS were private armies of Hitler against Germany army and police). Local TV and radio uses their airtime to put loop videos of Spanish police "brutality" (nothing compared against last Germany action in the G20 summit or Britain with Brexit protests), where the local police has not followed orders by central Government. The local health system(following also local orders) declared anyone having an anxiety crisis for watching local TV loops to be an officially "injured" by Spanish police. More than 200 "injured" by Spanish police had just watched TV.
- syshum 9y ago>>Imagine that some State in the US declares the president of the US has no decisions over his land, and that you follow your own local laws(made by you on the go) instead of the laws of your country. It will not take more than 5 minutes of that for the country to act. We have a strong Federalist Society and I think it would take much longer than 5 mins to act. While the US Federal Government has gain alot of power after the last 100 years it is still not the Top Dogs, Under the US Constitution the State governments can amend and/or abolish the Federal Government if they so choose. The US Constitution is entirely about limiting the power and scope of the US Federal Government, a fact that seems to be lost both in international understanding of the US, and sadly domestically as well since we have more and more people thinking the Constitution is about "Giving people rights" or outlining what an individual can do, instead of its original and true purpose of defining what the government is allowed to do Prime example of this is National Speed Limits, there is no way for the US Federal Government to demand a speed limit so when they wanted to establish said limit of 65, they had to do it by bribes and extortion they tied federal funding for roads to the passage of state laws establishing a 65 speed limit, states that did not pass such a law would lose billions in federal money So no I do not believe the reaction would be as you think it would be here in the States A more modern and pressing example is the ongoing conflict between several states and the US Federal Government over Marijuana where multiple states have now openly defied the federal laws on prohibition of this plant. And on Immigration where they openly resist and obstruct enforcement of Federal Immigration Law. No in the US the State government are regularly in opposition to the Federal Government
- yellowapple 9y agoIt's almost like Spain wants Catalonia to secede.
- justin66 9y agoIt's worse than that. It is as if Spain wants Catalonia to look justified in seceding in the eyes of the world. Pretty much everyone in the world would have regarded a secession referendum from Catalonia - regardless of how it was decided - as an unimportant joke until the Spanish government started beating people over it.
- icebraining 9y agoYeah, I always suspected Rajoy to be an idiot, but this really confirmed it. The handling of this situation has been just terrible.
- JaumeGreen 9y agoLook at the electoral results. PP, the current governing party in Spain, doesn't get good results in Catalonia. Its main opponents, PSOE, does get decent results there, as does the alternative, PODEMOS. So they have absolutely nothing to lose, politically speaking, losing us. Not only that, but they have used, and still use, Catalonia as a ghost whom they fight, in order to gain votes in the rest of Spain. And lastly, there are active cases against them by justice, all this is casting a smokescreen so people won't notice if they are declared guilty,or when they pardon their friends.
- synicalx 9y agoAs far as I can tell they want out for two reasons: 1. They want to preserve their own culture, which is apparently distinct from Spain's. 2. They've some issue with the Spanish government, seems to be around corruption and/or unfair treatment. Don't know enough about this to comment on it though. How does seceding make sense here? It's not the only solution, it's one of many, and it's probably one of the worst - they're going to torpedo Spain's recovering economy, and have to build a new country of their own. Who's going to run the hospitals? Where's the money/electricity/food/water/fuel etc coming from?