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> It's also funny that many of the people complaining about this issue were first wave gentrifiers pushing out people before them in an effort to get to the hot

> It's also funny that many of the people complaining about this issue were first wave gentrifiers pushing out people before them in an effort to get to the hot neighborhoods. It's frustrating how many Seattleites refuse to admit their own hand in this process. This, right here, is what drives me the most nuts about all of the complaining. Of the handful of native-born Seattleites I know (yes, yes, anecdotes don't make data, I get it), they're split about half and half between "meh, who gives a rat's butt" and "holy shit my family is rich for the next nine generations because my parents got divorced in the mid-90s and both of them bought a house in [Ballard | LQA | Capitol Hill | Magnolia] and they've said that's my inheritance." There's a poster on reddit who typifies this to a T. He regularly whines and moans about the construction, traffic, noise, and people around his place on Capitol Hill. The thing is, in his rants, he gripes about how things were so much different when he moved here 20ish years ago. He refuses to see that HE was also a "dirty gentrifier" considering people didn't move to the Hill in 1997 who weren't looking for that hippy cool vibe and bar doors you could get all kinds of exotic diseases by simply walking past. Cities change. They always change. Sometimes they change in ways a particular person likes; sometimes they don't. But this whole business of "good Seattle" is just crap. > everyone in the region knows the "new Seattle" is Tacoma I've been to Tacoma several times. They can keep it.

nodamage 9y ago
> There's a poster on reddit who typifies this to a T. The Seattle subreddits (both of them, because drama) are particularly toxic as far as city forums go. Not exactly sure why, but there seem to be a lot of people who have nothing better to do than post angry rants all day. I had to unsubscribe.
- foota 9y ago
  Perhaps because it's not acceptable to be toxic in person?
  - Clubber 9y ago
    Acting like that in person yields a much higher chance of getting punched in the face than acting like that on the internet. :)
  - hrktb 9y ago
    I get the stereotype, but disagree. An awful lot of people are toxic IRL, that’s been the case for forever and nobody bats an eye. “old people rants”, “neighborhood gossip”, “backroom talk”, you call it what you want. It’s mostly accepted. Growing up we learn to ignore it, avoid these people, or enjoy getting caught up in sterile discussions.
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  Most city subreddits seem to be for the most part. I think people rant there instead of their street corners.
  - Atheros 9y ago
    I theorize that city subreddits are always terrible because in these we talk about issues due to our proximity to them rather than our expertise in them. Everyone in the /r/flying subreddit is interested enough in airplanes to read about them independently and then have intelligent discussions about them. That's not the case if a single-engine plane crashes in your city and we talk about it in the city subreddit.
- salviasloth 9y ago
  You should see the Vancouver, BC subreddit.
- nihonde 9y ago
  The culture there nurtures a nasty, cynical, mean-spiritedness into otherwise lovely people. What is the reason for it? No idea, but I know it's true because I grew up there and it took me forty years to (mostly) purge myself of that impulse. If I had to guess the reason, I think it is looks like a Venn diagram of small-minded, provincial people who harbor a deep, unfocused rage vs. people who use Reddit and similar message boards.
- subwayclub 9y ago
  Every local newspaper comments thread is basically like this. It's 4chan for old people.
sliverstorm 9y ago
Cities change. They always change. Sometimes they change in ways a particular person likes; sometimes they don't. But this whole business of "good Seattle" is just crap. Maybe if you are talking about which vibe is your favorite. But cities can definitely go the wrong direction on quality of life, with increased pollution, decreased walkability/bikeability, safety, access to nature, and so on. And that might be objectively bad/good.
nerfhammer 9y ago
> Cities change. Sometimes I think people on the west coast seem to think of a city as a place that's supposed to stay the same forever ("forever" being defined as starting at about 1960). The lower east side was a German neighborhood, then a Jewish, Italian and Ukrainian. Dutch before that, of course. Then the Italians moved to Little Italy. It mostly became a Hispanic neighborhood. The Ukrainians mostly moved away and the Jews mostly moved away. The north of the neighborhood sort of became Japanese and Chinatown sort of started encroaching on the south and Little Italy slowly declined. Artists and then eventually giant condos started moving in. As you walk around you can still see marks left behind by the groups that departed many decades ago. For example, a few buildings still have prominent German inscriptions on the front, from Little Germany's high point in the 1880s – the Germans were gone by around 1900. You have no doubt whatsoever that your turn there is temporary. A city is a place of constant change. You are every bit a part of that constant change. But the city will slowly move on without you. Don't expect anything to last longer than 10 years.
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  > Sometimes I think people on the west coast seem to think of a city as a place that's supposed to stay the same forever ("forever" being defined as starting at about 1960). In my experience this isn't a west coast thing - it's just the cities here are "newer" (compared to the east coast) so haven't quite graduated to the density and usage characteristics that modern large metropolises have. I find that what you're describing is the standard Boomer longing for the "good old days" applied to the cities they probably showed up in during their 20s. Or how they pictured them anyhow. Usually they're the worst NIMBYs.
  - tigershark 9y ago
    I'm always amazed when I'm remembered how extremely young is US. The little city where I was born is almost 3000 years old. Reading that for some people forever starts not even 50 years ago is quite weird.
    - abritinthebay 9y ago
Clubber 9y ago
>Cities change. Living in a growing city is much better than living in a dying city. Ask Detroit or the hundreds of them in middle America. They'd swap in a hot minute.
- closeparen 9y ago
  Where do you think gentrifiers come from? The smart kids from the Rust Belt, the ones who got out. We are swapping.
  - JBlue42 9y ago
    If they're arriving in a city that's already unbearably expensive, and it up doing normal life things (coupling, planning for kids), they might end up leaving back to either that Rust Belt city, that might have a 'revitalized' downtown (microbrewery, craft coffee shop, pricey ice cream place) or two one of the burgeoning smaller cities that has better amenities than the Rust Belt one (Portland, Austin). Then there are forgotten cities, that have good employment and affordable housing, but aren't as sexy such as Minneapolis, Raleigh-Durham, maybe even Chicago. I'm currently in LA and the exodus is real. It sucks for people that grew up here since the wages aren't great in most jobs, housing is out of reach, and they want to be around their family.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Will the last person to leave Seattle please turn out the lights? Seattle has been dying before, particularly when it was more dependent on Boeing who would go bust every 10 or so years. Seattle will probably die and be reborn again.
- smelterdemon 9y ago
  There are people in Detroit mourning gentrification too
consentfactory 9y ago
> Cities change. They always change. Sometimes they change in ways a particular person likes; sometimes they don't. But this whole business of "good Seattle" is just crap. I echo this sentiment here in Boise, Idaho, and we seem to be in the middle of this change. Companies all over being recruited into the Treasure Valley, and the cities here are dealing with these growing pains of being an attractive place to live that has jobs and low unemployment. Some of the "locals", however, seem to think we can have economic prosperity and growth without the negative externalities that sometimes accompany it. I think the "locals" would be happier in small towns a few hours outside of Boise, where they're not really changing (although brain drain is a bit of an issue in rural America).

nodamage 9y ago

> There's a poster on reddit who typifies this to a T. The Seattle subreddits (both of them, because drama) are particularly toxic as far as city forums go. Not exactly sure why, but there seem to be a lot of people who have nothing better to do than post angry rants all day. I had to unsubscribe.

foota 9y ago
Perhaps because it's not acceptable to be toxic in person?
- Clubber 9y ago
  Acting like that in person yields a much higher chance of getting punched in the face than acting like that on the internet. :)
- hrktb 9y ago
  I get the stereotype, but disagree. An awful lot of people are toxic IRL, that’s been the case for forever and nobody bats an eye. “old people rants”, “neighborhood gossip”, “backroom talk”, you call it what you want. It’s mostly accepted. Growing up we learn to ignore it, avoid these people, or enjoy getting caught up in sterile discussions.
abritinthebay 9y ago
Most city subreddits seem to be for the most part. I think people rant there instead of their street corners.
- Atheros 9y ago
  I theorize that city subreddits are always terrible because in these we talk about issues due to our proximity to them rather than our expertise in them. Everyone in the /r/flying subreddit is interested enough in airplanes to read about them independently and then have intelligent discussions about them. That's not the case if a single-engine plane crashes in your city and we talk about it in the city subreddit.
salviasloth 9y ago
You should see the Vancouver, BC subreddit.
nihonde 9y ago
The culture there nurtures a nasty, cynical, mean-spiritedness into otherwise lovely people. What is the reason for it? No idea, but I know it's true because I grew up there and it took me forty years to (mostly) purge myself of that impulse. If I had to guess the reason, I think it is looks like a Venn diagram of small-minded, provincial people who harbor a deep, unfocused rage vs. people who use Reddit and similar message boards.
subwayclub 9y ago
Every local newspaper comments thread is basically like this. It's 4chan for old people.

sliverstorm 9y ago

Cities change. They always change. Sometimes they change in ways a particular person likes; sometimes they don't. But this whole business of "good Seattle" is just crap. Maybe if you are talking about which vibe is your favorite. But cities can definitely go the wrong direction on quality of life, with increased pollution, decreased walkability/bikeability, safety, access to nature, and so on. And that might be objectively bad/good.

nerfhammer 9y ago

> Cities change. Sometimes I think people on the west coast seem to think of a city as a place that's supposed to stay the same forever ("forever" being defined as starting at about 1960). The lower east side was a German neighborhood, then a Jewish, Italian and Ukrainian. Dutch before that, of course. Then the Italians moved to Little Italy. It mostly became a Hispanic neighborhood. The Ukrainians mostly moved away and the Jews mostly moved away. The north of the neighborhood sort of became Japanese and Chinatown sort of started encroaching on the south and Little Italy slowly declined. Artists and then eventually giant condos started moving in. As you walk around you can still see marks left behind by the groups that departed many decades ago. For example, a few buildings still have prominent German inscriptions on the front, from Little Germany's high point in the 1880s – the Germans were gone by around 1900. You have no doubt whatsoever that your turn there is temporary. A city is a place of constant change. You are every bit a part of that constant change. But the city will slowly move on without you. Don't expect anything to last longer than 10 years.

abritinthebay 9y ago
> Sometimes I think people on the west coast seem to think of a city as a place that's supposed to stay the same forever ("forever" being defined as starting at about 1960). In my experience this isn't a west coast thing - it's just the cities here are "newer" (compared to the east coast) so haven't quite graduated to the density and usage characteristics that modern large metropolises have. I find that what you're describing is the standard Boomer longing for the "good old days" applied to the cities they probably showed up in during their 20s. Or how they pictured them anyhow. Usually they're the worst NIMBYs.
- tigershark 9y ago
  I'm always amazed when I'm remembered how extremely young is US. The little city where I was born is almost 3000 years old. Reading that for some people forever starts not even 50 years ago is quite weird.
  - abritinthebay 9y ago

Clubber 9y ago

>Cities change. Living in a growing city is much better than living in a dying city. Ask Detroit or the hundreds of them in middle America. They'd swap in a hot minute.

closeparen 9y ago
Where do you think gentrifiers come from? The smart kids from the Rust Belt, the ones who got out. We are swapping.
- JBlue42 9y ago
  If they're arriving in a city that's already unbearably expensive, and it up doing normal life things (coupling, planning for kids), they might end up leaving back to either that Rust Belt city, that might have a 'revitalized' downtown (microbrewery, craft coffee shop, pricey ice cream place) or two one of the burgeoning smaller cities that has better amenities than the Rust Belt one (Portland, Austin). Then there are forgotten cities, that have good employment and affordable housing, but aren't as sexy such as Minneapolis, Raleigh-Durham, maybe even Chicago. I'm currently in LA and the exodus is real. It sucks for people that grew up here since the wages aren't great in most jobs, housing is out of reach, and they want to be around their family.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Will the last person to leave Seattle please turn out the lights? Seattle has been dying before, particularly when it was more dependent on Boeing who would go bust every 10 or so years. Seattle will probably die and be reborn again.
smelterdemon 9y ago
There are people in Detroit mourning gentrification too

consentfactory 9y ago

> Cities change. They always change. Sometimes they change in ways a particular person likes; sometimes they don't. But this whole business of "good Seattle" is just crap. I echo this sentiment here in Boise, Idaho, and we seem to be in the middle of this change. Companies all over being recruited into the Treasure Valley, and the cities here are dealing with these growing pains of being an attractive place to live that has jobs and low unemployment. Some of the "locals", however, seem to think we can have economic prosperity and growth without the negative externalities that sometimes accompany it. I think the "locals" would be happier in small towns a few hours outside of Boise, where they're not really changing (although brain drain is a bit of an issue in rural America).