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I get your argument; but one of Boeing's objectives has been to try and keep Airbus out of the US (both defense and commercial). This deal with Delta will showc

I get your argument; but one of Boeing's objectives has been to try and keep Airbus out of the US (both defense and commercial). This deal with Delta will showcase, within the US, the CSeries. That could result in other US airlines following suit (particularly smaller regional airlines). Airbus is already fairly successful within the US with regional aircraft sales, this will only further cement that. Plus keep an eye on China's Comac. They're only ten years old (2008) but due to massive state investment are becoming pretty competitive, they may be eating both Boeing and Airbus's lunch by 2030 if this level of investment continues.

jquery 9y ago
If by state investment you mean the well-tread path of Chinese corporate espionage - http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20120317/ISSUE01/303179980/china-leans-on-boeing http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20120317/ISSUE01/3031... Fortunately for Boeing, a plane is not so easy to copy as many of their other successful corporate thefts.
- kuschku 9y ago
  You do realize that the Snowden papers show that Boeing did exactly the same corporate espionage, aided by the NSA steaking data from Airbus and directly giving it to Boeing? The US is just as problematic as China in these things, and has the same levels of subsidies for industries deemed important to national security.
  - adventured 9y ago
    > The US is just as problematic as China in these things, and has the same levels of subsidies for industries deemed important to national security. Let's talk about government subsidies: (July 2015) "China's Global 500 companies are bigger than ever—and mostly state-owned" "the top 12 Chinese companies are all state-owned. They include massive banks and oil companies that the central government controls through the State-Owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission of the ruling State Council (SASAC), which appoints CEOs and makes decisions on large investments. Of the 98 Chinese companies on the list, only 22 are private." http://fortune.com/2015/07/22/china-global-500-government-owned/ http://fortune.com/2015/07/22/china-global-500-government-ow... Using one example to proclaim that the US is committing as much intellectual theft as China, is comical. The US has dramatically more to lose than China does, given its general technological superiority (whether at the university lab level or the corporate R&D level). The second point is even more absurd, and very easily demonstrated to be false (as I did above). Most of China's largest corporations are State controlled entities. Most of their largest industries, such as steel, are directly controlled by the government. A very large share of the Chinese economy is operated by fully nationalized, or partially nationalized fake corporate entities. So called State corporations.
    - kuschku 9y ago
      > technical superiority And yet the US and China are both equally stealing knowledge from us Europeans. Both just want to fuck you over and steal your secrets, and do it all the time. > Subsidies And yet, the US DoD pumps trillions into the US defense and tech industry, in similar amounts to the chinese subsidies. From the European perspective, both the US and China are states that use espionage and subsidies in similar amounts to prevent fair competition, because their technology is inferior.
      - adventured 9y ago
        > And yet the US and China are both equally stealing knowledge from us Europeans Demonstrate that equality with data if you would. That the US is stealing as much intellectual property from Europe, as China is (or has been, say over the last ~10-15 years). Using one very weak example, derived from tens of billions in annual government DoD spending (in a sector - defense - that is similarly government-private across all other nations as well), is not an off-set to trillions of dollars in China's GDP deriving from state owned or state controlled entities. US military spending on actual hardware / tech, is a small fraction of US military spending. The extreme majority of the DoD's spending is on human soldiers and not on R&D or hardware (salaries, housing, offices, benefits, veterans spending etc). You're comparing trillions of dollars in China, to something closer to $100-$200 billion in the US (which also has an economy 60% larger). You're off by a comparison factor of at least 30 fold. > because their technology is inferior That's a hilarious premise given how far behind Europe's technology industry is in every regard to the US. Europe is increasingly falling behind China's rising technology industry. But hey, let's talk about how exciting SAP is! Over the last 40 years, the US has led Europe on: semiconductor technology, personal computing, mainframe tech, datacenter tech, computer graphics tech including GPU, cloud services, software, Internet, mobile, artificial intelligence, vehicle automation, storage tech, ecommerce, and even biotech and gene tech (including most things related to the human genome, stem cells, immunotherapy and crispr). Europe by contrast has led in very few segments - despite having over twice as many people as the US.
      - adventured 9y ago
        edit: I understand this post is unpopular with people that dislike the US and strongly dislike recognizing its technological dominance over the last half century. Downvotes can't change facts of history however. The parent's empty, absurd premise deserved a challenge and I provided it with a large, prominent list of examples. --- Let's have some fun on your inferior technology premise. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of these. Most of the modern technology world, including most of the technology you likely use on a daily basis, was invented in America. Internet/arpanet (Darpa, SRI, BBN etc). TCP/IP (Robert Kahn, Vint Cerf). Microprocessor (Ted Hoff). Transistor (Bell Labs, John Bardeen, Walter Brattain, William Shockley). Fiber optics (Corning). The laser (Bell Labs, Arthur Schawlow). The hard drive (IBM). RAM/DRAM (Robert Dennard). Router (Bill Yeager). Personal computer (CTC datapoint, MITS, Apple, Xerox, Edmund Berkeley). Smartphone (IBM, simon; Apple, iPhone). GUI (Xerox PARC, Ivan Sutherland). Mouse (Douglas Engelbart). Streaming media (John Sokol). Computer networking (JCR Licklider, BBN). Supercomputers (Cray, Seymour Cray). Email (Ray Tomlinson). SSL (Netscape). Hypertext (Vannevar Bush, Ted Nelson). Cellphone (Martin Cooper, Motorola). Unix (Dennis Ritchie, Bell Labs). C programming language (Dennis Ritchie, Ken Thompson, Bell Labs). C++ programming language (Bell Labs). Java language (Sun Microsystems, James Gosling). Javascript (Brendan Eich). Basic language (George Kemeny, Tom Kurtzas). Portable computers (Alan Kay, IBM, Xerox PARC, Adam Osborne). LED, light emitting diode (Bell Labs). LCD, liquid crystal display (George Heilmeier). Digital signal processor (Bell Labs). Ethernet (Robert Metcalfe). Relational database: (IBM, Oracle). Spreadsheet (Dan Bricklin). PDA, personal digital assistant (Judah Klausner, Apple). GPS, global positioning system (Roger Easton, US department of defense). Voicemail (Gordon Matthews, John Cayton, VMX). SSD, solid state storage (IBM). Optical digital recording & playback (James Russell). Optical disc (David Gregg). USB (Intel, Ajay Bhatt). Digital camera (Steven Sasson, Kodak). Computer graphics (Evans & Sutherland, SGI). Virtual reality (Evans & Sutherland, Oculus Rift). 3D graphics card (3dfx). GPU (nVidia). PC internet modem (Dennis Hayes). Cable modem (Rouzbeh Yassini). Qwerty keyboard (Christopher Sholes). Fax machine (Bell Labs). Synthetic speech (Bell Labs). Digital computer (Bell Labs). Solar battery cell (Bell Labs). First orbiting comm satellite (Bell Labs). First pager (Bell Labs). This list just keeps going. Your turn. Let's see your contrasting list that is so vastly superior to what the US has contributed.
adventured 9y ago
I agree, China will eventually split the global airplane market into a three way race with Boeing and Airbus. I don't think anything can stop that. No doubt Boeing and Airbus know that. As soon as it's possible, use case by use case, China's airlines will switch their purchases to mostly domestic produced airplanes (they won't have a choice for the most part, government edict will dictate that).

jquery 9y ago

If by state investment you mean the well-tread path of Chinese corporate espionage - http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20120317/ISSUE01/303179980/china-leans-on-boeing http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20120317/ISSUE01/3031... Fortunately for Boeing, a plane is not so easy to copy as many of their other successful corporate thefts.

kuschku 9y ago
You do realize that the Snowden papers show that Boeing did exactly the same corporate espionage, aided by the NSA steaking data from Airbus and directly giving it to Boeing? The US is just as problematic as China in these things, and has the same levels of subsidies for industries deemed important to national security.
- adventured 9y ago
  > The US is just as problematic as China in these things, and has the same levels of subsidies for industries deemed important to national security. Let's talk about government subsidies: (July 2015) "China's Global 500 companies are bigger than ever—and mostly state-owned" "the top 12 Chinese companies are all state-owned. They include massive banks and oil companies that the central government controls through the State-Owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission of the ruling State Council (SASAC), which appoints CEOs and makes decisions on large investments. Of the 98 Chinese companies on the list, only 22 are private." http://fortune.com/2015/07/22/china-global-500-government-owned/ http://fortune.com/2015/07/22/china-global-500-government-ow... Using one example to proclaim that the US is committing as much intellectual theft as China, is comical. The US has dramatically more to lose than China does, given its general technological superiority (whether at the university lab level or the corporate R&D level). The second point is even more absurd, and very easily demonstrated to be false (as I did above). Most of China's largest corporations are State controlled entities. Most of their largest industries, such as steel, are directly controlled by the government. A very large share of the Chinese economy is operated by fully nationalized, or partially nationalized fake corporate entities. So called State corporations.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    > technical superiority And yet the US and China are both equally stealing knowledge from us Europeans. Both just want to fuck you over and steal your secrets, and do it all the time. > Subsidies And yet, the US DoD pumps trillions into the US defense and tech industry, in similar amounts to the chinese subsidies. From the European perspective, both the US and China are states that use espionage and subsidies in similar amounts to prevent fair competition, because their technology is inferior.
    - adventured 9y ago
      > And yet the US and China are both equally stealing knowledge from us Europeans Demonstrate that equality with data if you would. That the US is stealing as much intellectual property from Europe, as China is (or has been, say over the last ~10-15 years). Using one very weak example, derived from tens of billions in annual government DoD spending (in a sector - defense - that is similarly government-private across all other nations as well), is not an off-set to trillions of dollars in China's GDP deriving from state owned or state controlled entities. US military spending on actual hardware / tech, is a small fraction of US military spending. The extreme majority of the DoD's spending is on human soldiers and not on R&D or hardware (salaries, housing, offices, benefits, veterans spending etc). You're comparing trillions of dollars in China, to something closer to $100-$200 billion in the US (which also has an economy 60% larger). You're off by a comparison factor of at least 30 fold. > because their technology is inferior That's a hilarious premise given how far behind Europe's technology industry is in every regard to the US. Europe is increasingly falling behind China's rising technology industry. But hey, let's talk about how exciting SAP is! Over the last 40 years, the US has led Europe on: semiconductor technology, personal computing, mainframe tech, datacenter tech, computer graphics tech including GPU, cloud services, software, Internet, mobile, artificial intelligence, vehicle automation, storage tech, ecommerce, and even biotech and gene tech (including most things related to the human genome, stem cells, immunotherapy and crispr). Europe by contrast has led in very few segments - despite having over twice as many people as the US.
    - adventured 9y ago
      edit: I understand this post is unpopular with people that dislike the US and strongly dislike recognizing its technological dominance over the last half century. Downvotes can't change facts of history however. The parent's empty, absurd premise deserved a challenge and I provided it with a large, prominent list of examples. --- Let's have some fun on your inferior technology premise. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of these. Most of the modern technology world, including most of the technology you likely use on a daily basis, was invented in America. Internet/arpanet (Darpa, SRI, BBN etc). TCP/IP (Robert Kahn, Vint Cerf). Microprocessor (Ted Hoff). Transistor (Bell Labs, John Bardeen, Walter Brattain, William Shockley). Fiber optics (Corning). The laser (Bell Labs, Arthur Schawlow). The hard drive (IBM). RAM/DRAM (Robert Dennard). Router (Bill Yeager). Personal computer (CTC datapoint, MITS, Apple, Xerox, Edmund Berkeley). Smartphone (IBM, simon; Apple, iPhone). GUI (Xerox PARC, Ivan Sutherland). Mouse (Douglas Engelbart). Streaming media (John Sokol). Computer networking (JCR Licklider, BBN). Supercomputers (Cray, Seymour Cray). Email (Ray Tomlinson). SSL (Netscape). Hypertext (Vannevar Bush, Ted Nelson). Cellphone (Martin Cooper, Motorola). Unix (Dennis Ritchie, Bell Labs). C programming language (Dennis Ritchie, Ken Thompson, Bell Labs). C++ programming language (Bell Labs). Java language (Sun Microsystems, James Gosling). Javascript (Brendan Eich). Basic language (George Kemeny, Tom Kurtzas). Portable computers (Alan Kay, IBM, Xerox PARC, Adam Osborne). LED, light emitting diode (Bell Labs). LCD, liquid crystal display (George Heilmeier). Digital signal processor (Bell Labs). Ethernet (Robert Metcalfe). Relational database: (IBM, Oracle). Spreadsheet (Dan Bricklin). PDA, personal digital assistant (Judah Klausner, Apple). GPS, global positioning system (Roger Easton, US department of defense). Voicemail (Gordon Matthews, John Cayton, VMX). SSD, solid state storage (IBM). Optical digital recording & playback (James Russell). Optical disc (David Gregg). USB (Intel, Ajay Bhatt). Digital camera (Steven Sasson, Kodak). Computer graphics (Evans & Sutherland, SGI). Virtual reality (Evans & Sutherland, Oculus Rift). 3D graphics card (3dfx). GPU (nVidia). PC internet modem (Dennis Hayes). Cable modem (Rouzbeh Yassini). Qwerty keyboard (Christopher Sholes). Fax machine (Bell Labs). Synthetic speech (Bell Labs). Digital computer (Bell Labs). Solar battery cell (Bell Labs). First orbiting comm satellite (Bell Labs). First pager (Bell Labs). This list just keeps going. Your turn. Let's see your contrasting list that is so vastly superior to what the US has contributed.

adventured 9y ago

I agree, China will eventually split the global airplane market into a three way race with Boeing and Airbus. I don't think anything can stop that. No doubt Boeing and Airbus know that. As soon as it's possible, use case by use case, China's airlines will switch their purchases to mostly domestic produced airplanes (they won't have a choice for the most part, government edict will dictate that).