10 ms·

How MDMA Went from Club Drug to ‘Breakthrough Therapy’

Synaesthesia 9y ago
Funny because it started as a breakthrough therapy drug which Shulgin and a few psychiatrists and escaped to become a club drug, especially in Texas. This lead to it being placed in schedule 1 by the DEA, against recommendations by doctors and scientists, that it should be allowed to be researched. The DEA did this by passing a special law giving them emergency powers. http://www.maps.org/research-archive/dea-mdma/ http://www.maps.org/research-archive/dea-mdma/ Having had experience with MDMA I can attest to it’s near magical therapeutic powers. But no drug is a panacea and it can certainly have drastic side effects, particularly when abused but even if not.
- celticninja 9y ago
  Yeah this is essentially it coming full circle. This book [0] is a great read on the history and use of Ecstasy and covers it's early therapeutic uses and how it progressed to party drug. [0] https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ecstasy-Dance-Culture-Nicholas-Saunders/dp/0950162892 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ecstasy-Dance-Culture-Nicholas-Saun...
- sixQuarks 9y ago
  After watching the 60 minutes expose on the DEO and how they helped cause the opioid epidemic, the DEO literally does the opposite of what they're supposed to. They make it easier to get dangerous drugs into the wrong hands, while preventing helpful drugs to those who need it most.
  - tim333 9y ago
    I guess you're referring to this thing? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-dea-agent-opioid-crisis-fueled-by-drug-industry-and-congress/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-dea-agent-opioid-crisis-fuel... >Ex-DEA agent: Opioid crisis fueled by drug industry and Congress Whistleblower Joe Rannazzisi says drug distributors pumped opioids into U.S. communities -- knowing that people were dying -- and says industry lobbyists and Congress derailed the DEA's efforts to stop it
- anythingnonidin 9y ago
  To add to the other comment, I highly recommend 'Acid Test' to get an overview of the history and potential of MDMA + other drugs like magic mushrooms. https://www.audible.com/pd/History/Acid-Test-Audiobook/B00MPWQOSS https://www.audible.com/pd/History/Acid-Test-Audiobook/B00MP...
  - liquids 9y ago
    Thanks for this. I'm curious to hear why something that has such remarkable potential to improve lives, has somehow been channeled into a social taboo.
    - nitrogen 9y ago
      When something competes with established channels for individual fulfillment, the people who control those channels (politicians, manufacturers, priests, ministers) will oppose, vilify, and demonize it.
  - noahdesu 9y ago
    This is a great read.
- lottin 9y ago
  It can be a nice experience, but I wouldn't call it therapeutic. I mean, it won't change your personality or anything like that.
  - ci5er 9y ago
    That's a nice opinion. Be a shame if anything ever happened to it. I hope you have others that you can share.
  - alsetmusic 9y ago
    > I mean, it won't change your personality or anything like that. I was on MDMA in 2000 when I finally saw through my own bigotry. I had been raised with a particular set of values about a group due to the prejudice of a parent. I have always attributed that personal breakthrough to the drug. This still might have occurred naturally, albeit at a slower rate, but it shattered my worldview in a very positive way in one night. I could go on about personality changes that were directly linked to another chemical, but the point is that just because it hasn’t happened to you doesn’t mean that it hasn’t happened to someone else.
  - ada1981 9y ago
    False. When used in the right set & setting MDMA can have profound impacts on people's lives. The book Trust Surrender Receive has 40+ accounts of people use did underground therapy with amazing results. http://bit.ly/mdmabook http://bit.ly/mdmabook
    - ada1981 9y ago
      Update: author website: http://AnneOther.com http://AnneOther.com
  - protomyth 9y ago
    Did you use it in a clinical setting under a doctor’s care?
  - acchow 9y ago
    I know a ton of people that have been helped dramatically with MDMA. Most commonly lifted out of depression, permanently.
Mankhool 9y ago
Paywall . . .
kolbe 9y ago
Paywall, but I'm going to go ahead and assume the real answer is that some drug company will get monopoly rights to sell it, and has outlined an effective strategy to get it overprescribed at the expense of US taxpayers. That's how it became a 'breakthrough therapy' edit: I'm not saying it's bad to treat MDMA as a useful therapy. I'm just saying what force was at play to change the cultural opinion.
- popopo1 9y ago
  You guessed wrong moron.
  - dang 9y ago
    Posting like that is a bannable offense on HN. We're trying for a (much!) higher level of quality here, though of course we don't always succeed at that. Would you please read and follow https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html when using this site? I normally would have banned a new account that posted like this, but https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15406879 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15406879 looks pretty good, so we'll assume you want to use HN as intended. Please do read those guidelines though!
- nugga 9y ago
  I don't think you can patent and steal a monopoly on a drug synthesized in 1912.
  - trendia 9y ago
    Sometimes this is true, however there are many tricks that biotech companies use to prevent generics. The first is the very high cost ($ billions) of getting through FDA approval for a drug. Once a company has done this approval, then other companies must show drug equivalence in order to produce generics that can stand in. They have to wait for the patents to expire, or figure out how to get around existing patents, but that's still not enough. They must show that their drug is equivalent to the existing drug. But this is not easy task, because the incumbent will do everything they can to prevent anyone else from getting the drug for research purposes. (e.g. the incumbent will claim that a particular company trying to get the drug does not fit their safety protocols, and thus refuse to provide the drug. Because the company cannot get access to the drug, they can't prove equivalence.) Another method is that a prescription for one drug does not always guarantee that the prescription can be used for a generic drug of the same sort [0]. The incumbent company will spend lots on marketing by buying lunch for doctors, giving them notepads and pens, etc. Then, the doctor will write a prescription for that drug as write "Dispense as Written." This prevents the pharmacist from providing a generic alternative, even if they're biologically equivalent! A final method is to develop a drug with a particular injection mechanism. For instance, if a drug company puts MDMA in a patch, then they can get a patent for the combination MDMA + patch, get approval, and then get doctors to prescribe it. (Maybe it provides a small dose over a long period?) This can occur even if MDMA was first synthesized a century ago. The prescription for the patch cannot be used for a pill form, or vice versa. This guarantees the drug company revenue as long as they can convince doctors to prescribe it. So, to make a long story short, there are a lot of ways that drug companies guarantee their $$$ and prevent competitors from eating their lunch. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/some-doctors-insist-on-brand-name-drugs-even-when-cheaper-generics-are-available/2011/06/13/gIQAmC0L9H_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/some-doctors-insist-...
kristofferR 9y ago
Paywall bypass: https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/920703548115046400 https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/920703548115046400
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  Also: http://archive.is/kOj9S http://archive.is/kOj9S
Overtonwindow 9y ago
I think a lot of the psychotropic drugs can help us unlock new treatments. IMO, if we can remove the morality issues from some of this research, we'll see greater progress. I'm also hopeful that cannabis will make its way into more research.
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
We're slowly realizing that there's not actually a difference between dangerous drugs and miraculous medicines. The dose (and the circumstances) make the poison, always.
- loeg 9y ago
  LD50 vs effective dose still matters. Some drugs are inherently more dangerous than others. (This is not a jab at illicit substances — tylenol is problematic.) But yes, we're very much realizing that DEA scheduling is not based in evidence (and actually prevents gathering of further evidence).
  - jtmcmc 9y ago
    we've known this for a very long time that legality of drugs had very little to do with their actual danger to society or individuals and much more to do with fear mongering and racism
    - collyw 9y ago
      Fear mongering, as we have the same attitude in the UK, but not the race divide that the States has (we have a very similar divide along the lines of class however).
  - Turing_Machine 9y ago
    Tylenol/acetaminophen/APAP/paracetamol immediately came to mind for me as well. It's flat-out amazing to me that shit is still allowed on the market. It hammers your liver really hard, especially in combination with alcohol. In fact, it's the foremost cause of acute liver failure in the entire western world. The kicker: it doesn't even work very well. Other pain relievers are much more effective, and have a much higher margin of safety.
    - 0xcde4c3db 9y ago
      The funny thing is that if you ask the average American whether Tylenol or aspirin is safer, they'd probably say Tylenol unless they specifically know about the liver issue. I think this ultimately comes from acetaminophen having remarkably few interactions, but has been spun by marketing into a general sense of "safety".
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
AElsinore77 9y ago
If you are unable to observe a thing directly, and instead could only see it through a distortion lens, would you want the opportunity to look at it through multiple different distortion lenses instead of just one? The world we know is largely constructed by semi-conscious and sub-conscious processes, from world building processes (such as how the mind filters and modifies information to construct our reality), to conclusions we make about the world, ourselves, and what is possible (emotionally motivated reasoning, decision heuristics, predictive modeling). Google deep dream provides interesting insight into psychedelic phenomena, and hints at what is changing in the mind’s world-building process when on those substances. When it comes to MDMA, because it so dramatically changes emotion, it can also dramatically shift reasoning and thinking heuristics that unconsciously originate from emotion. This can transform beliefs that you once took for self-evident fact, into things that you now realize represent how you feel more than reality. Some further reading that I found very valuable: World Building Process: https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how_your_brain_hallucinates_your_conscious_reality https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how_your_brain_hallucina... Deep Dream: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2015/07/google_deepdream_it_s_dazzling_creepy_and_tells_us_a_lot_about_the_future.html http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2015/07/goo...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
anythingnonidin 9y ago
It is absolutely shocking to me that research into MDMA and classic psychedelics isn't swamped with funding. I'd imagine that some wealthy people must find this stuff extremely intriguing - Yuri Milner is spending $100 million on space exploration, and an MDMA phase 3 research trial needs ~$15 million and finds it really hard to raise money? Both have extremely high therapeutic potential, classic psychedelics in particular are interesting in the same way that space exploration is interesting. And as diogenescynic noted elsewhere, it's even more shocking that we as a society put up with it.
- westoncb 9y ago
  Maybe it's due to fear of social stigma? Something like, "Yuri Milner spends $100 million on psychedelic drug research" —could be reputation changing.
  - tibbon 9y ago
    If I had an extra $100mm, I wouldn't worry about my reputation too much :)
    - chc 9y ago
      Once you have hundreds of millions of dollars, your reputation is practically all you have to worry about.
  - soundwave106 9y ago
    I think that might have been true a couple of decades ago, but I'm not sure if it's the case today. A good recent example is ketamine. The drug, or, rather, the mechanism behind it, has gotten a large push research wise of late, since it was discovered that ketamine relieved depression using a mechanism that current anti-depressants do not utilize. Until further drugs are developed, "ketamine clinics" for off-label treatment-resistant depression also exist. And there really doesn't seem to be a huge issue made about them. I would hazard a guess (unfortunately) that one of the barriers here regarding fundraising among more commercial interests is the lack of the ability to patent, which means that the rewards for making MDMA as a treatment are not as great, as far as commercial backers would be concerned. In the case of ketamine, drug companies are trying to develop chemicals that use the same mechanism, but do not have the hallucinogenic side effects (an example currently in Phase III would be Rapastinel). These efforts are able to get corporate funding. Also, MAPS is more "advocacy group" than "medical industry", not that there is a problem with that, but they might be outside the circle of what the typical drug trial fundraising process goes through. If MDMA even remotely has a chance (the fact that it passed Phase II trials suggests this is the case), I definitely think it would be worth exploring, as current medication options for PTSD seem to largely be limited to anti-depressants (SSRI etc.). Ala ketamine, this would be a new approach.
anythingnonidin 9y ago
I recommend reading or listening to the book Acid Test if anyone here would like to learn more about the therapeutic potential of MDMA and classic psychedelics (e.g. psilocybin/magic mushrooms).
LouisSayers 9y ago
It's good that people with serious issues can get some help via drugs like MDMA, but I do think people should be careful. I feel that certain groups of people are a bit flippant about drug use, and seem eager to promote them as these great things. As an example of why we should still remain vigilant - studies have shown MDMA users to literally have shrunken bits of their brain. http://www.maps.org/news/media/2462-media-reports-of-ecstasy-and-brain-shrinkage-overblown http://www.maps.org/news/media/2462-media-reports-of-ecstasy... I remain cautious of people that promote these things - we should know about the side effects so we can make informed decisions. Overall, I think it's good to open up laws to allow usage of this, but let's not forget the people who suffer from or may be prone to suffer from drug abuse, and maybe think twice before promoting these things to friends.
- anythingnonidin 9y ago
  Interesting link, and an important note on it: > Additional commentary: Upon examining this report, human neuroscience researcher Matthew Johnson noted that the researchers did not do a convincing job at "matching" the ecstasy users and control participants on other drug use. The ecstasy users had considerably more use of other drugs, but the statistical tests of whether the groups differed in this respect lacked sufficient power to detect differences in drug use.
- eric_h 9y ago
  > studies have shown MDMA users to literally have shrunken bits of their brain. http://www.maps.org/news/media/2462-media-reports-of-ecstasy.. http://www.maps.org/news/media/2462-media-reports-of-ecstasy.... I only had a chance to skim that article, but it is equating tablets of ecstasy with MDMA, which is a false equivalence. "Ecstasy tablets" usually contain some MDMA, but can also contain a whole bunch of other shit, including cocaine, heroine, speed, MDA, etc. I think the jury's still out on whether pure MDMA has the same downsides from frequent use.
  - taneq 9y ago
    And even then, there's a huge difference between "frequent recreational use" (and it's not uncommon for recreational users to take 10+ pills in a night, and to use every weekend) and "theraputic use". Habitual club users do tend to get pretty fuzzy after a while but they're not using the drug in any remotely responsible way. Taking them as a reason to keep MDMA illegal is like saying that drunks exist and so doctors shouldn't be allowed to use alcohol swabs.
anythingnonidin 9y ago
I'm very interested in this stuff. See my submissions for other interesting articles on the potential of MDMA and classic psychedelics (magic mushrooms, LSD) to help both unwell and healthy people be happier & healthier: https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=anythingnonidin https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=anythingnonidin This site has an overview of where MDMA and classic psychedelics may be useful, and the most effective things you can do to help the science + safe access progress: http://www.rethinkpsychedelics.org/ http://www.rethinkpsychedelics.org/
anythingnonidin 9y ago
The "MDMA Therapy" subreddit has some decent info: https://www.reddit.com/r/mdmatherapy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mdmatherapy/
anythingnonidin 9y ago
If anyone is wondering how they can help make sure this research happens, the single most helpful thing I'm aware of is helping MAPS find people interested in large (6 or 7 figures) donations. You could reach out to askmaps@maps.org or via another channel if that describes you or a friend
tibbon 9y ago
I wish I knew who (realistically) was against this, but supports the ability of pharma companies to ship opiates. And why?
- anythingnonidin 9y ago
  As far as I'm aware, there isn't really anyone strongly against it, there just aren't enough (wealthy) people who are strongly supporting it. The main barrier by far is funding, which my understanding is mostly comes from large (6-7 figure) funders. So, some "opposition": - Apathy - Desire to not spend money / pass on majority of wealth to future generations - Lack of knowledge - Belief that donating to MDMA/psilocybin research isn't an effective way to donate money I think the biggest one is just wealthy people, understandably, are hesitant to donate their money. Logically it seems many of them understand that they won't be able to spend through it all and will still have substantial resources for future generations, but emotionally I imagine it would be hard to cut a $5 million check to a non-profit. I don't think it's a lack of billionaires aware of MDMA - there should be more than enough billionaires from the burning man crowd alone.
cnp 9y ago
Please Donate to MAPS (the organization coordinating this research) if you can -- they need funding now more than ever: https://store.maps.org/np/clients/maps/donation.jsp?campaign=11 https://store.maps.org/np/clients/maps/donation.jsp?campaign...
- justinpombrio 9y ago
  Thank you for the link. I donated, and probably wouldn't have if you hadn't.
  - cnp 9y ago
    Thank you :)
DonHopkins 9y ago
They put it on everything here in the Netherlands. Just ask for "Friet met MDMAyonaise".
dagaci 9y ago
MDMA as a tool for treatment has always been obvious to me. Any drug which can give you such a massive high, taking you so completely out of that low is a method bringing a person more in-tune to a place they should be. But of course and critically at the same time the user should have the right thought processes in place for it to be effective and not something they cling too in a recreational cycle, in my mind it should only need to be one-time event.

Funny because it started as a breakthrough therapy drug which Shulgin and a few psychiatrists and escaped to become a club drug, especially in Texas. This lead to it being placed in schedule 1 by the DEA, against recommendations by doctors and scientists, that it should be allowed to be researched. The DEA did this by passing a special law giving them emergency powers. http://www.maps.org/research-archive/dea-mdma/ http://www.maps.org/research-archive/dea-mdma/ Having had experience with MDMA I can attest to it’s near magical therapeutic powers. But no drug is a panacea and it can certainly have drastic side effects, particularly when abused but even if not.

celticninja 9y ago
Yeah this is essentially it coming full circle. This book [0] is a great read on the history and use of Ecstasy and covers it's early therapeutic uses and how it progressed to party drug. [0] https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ecstasy-Dance-Culture-Nicholas-Saunders/dp/0950162892 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ecstasy-Dance-Culture-Nicholas-Saun...
sixQuarks 9y ago
After watching the 60 minutes expose on the DEO and how they helped cause the opioid epidemic, the DEO literally does the opposite of what they're supposed to. They make it easier to get dangerous drugs into the wrong hands, while preventing helpful drugs to those who need it most.
- tim333 9y ago
  I guess you're referring to this thing? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-dea-agent-opioid-crisis-fueled-by-drug-industry-and-congress/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-dea-agent-opioid-crisis-fuel... >Ex-DEA agent: Opioid crisis fueled by drug industry and Congress Whistleblower Joe Rannazzisi says drug distributors pumped opioids into U.S. communities -- knowing that people were dying -- and says industry lobbyists and Congress derailed the DEA's efforts to stop it
anythingnonidin 9y ago
To add to the other comment, I highly recommend 'Acid Test' to get an overview of the history and potential of MDMA + other drugs like magic mushrooms. https://www.audible.com/pd/History/Acid-Test-Audiobook/B00MPWQOSS https://www.audible.com/pd/History/Acid-Test-Audiobook/B00MP...
- liquids 9y ago
  Thanks for this. I'm curious to hear why something that has such remarkable potential to improve lives, has somehow been channeled into a social taboo.
  - nitrogen 9y ago
    When something competes with established channels for individual fulfillment, the people who control those channels (politicians, manufacturers, priests, ministers) will oppose, vilify, and demonize it.
- noahdesu 9y ago
  This is a great read.
lottin 9y ago
It can be a nice experience, but I wouldn't call it therapeutic. I mean, it won't change your personality or anything like that.
- ci5er 9y ago
  That's a nice opinion. Be a shame if anything ever happened to it. I hope you have others that you can share.
- alsetmusic 9y ago
  > I mean, it won't change your personality or anything like that. I was on MDMA in 2000 when I finally saw through my own bigotry. I had been raised with a particular set of values about a group due to the prejudice of a parent. I have always attributed that personal breakthrough to the drug. This still might have occurred naturally, albeit at a slower rate, but it shattered my worldview in a very positive way in one night. I could go on about personality changes that were directly linked to another chemical, but the point is that just because it hasn’t happened to you doesn’t mean that it hasn’t happened to someone else.
- ada1981 9y ago
  False. When used in the right set & setting MDMA can have profound impacts on people's lives. The book Trust Surrender Receive has 40+ accounts of people use did underground therapy with amazing results. http://bit.ly/mdmabook http://bit.ly/mdmabook
  - ada1981 9y ago
    Update: author website: http://AnneOther.com http://AnneOther.com
- protomyth 9y ago
  Did you use it in a clinical setting under a doctor’s care?
- acchow 9y ago
  I know a ton of people that have been helped dramatically with MDMA. Most commonly lifted out of depression, permanently.

Mankhool 9y ago

Paywall . . .

kolbe 9y ago

Paywall, but I'm going to go ahead and assume the real answer is that some drug company will get monopoly rights to sell it, and has outlined an effective strategy to get it overprescribed at the expense of US taxpayers. That's how it became a 'breakthrough therapy' edit: I'm not saying it's bad to treat MDMA as a useful therapy. I'm just saying what force was at play to change the cultural opinion.

popopo1 9y ago
You guessed wrong moron.
- dang 9y ago
  Posting like that is a bannable offense on HN. We're trying for a (much!) higher level of quality here, though of course we don't always succeed at that. Would you please read and follow https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html when using this site? I normally would have banned a new account that posted like this, but https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15406879 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15406879 looks pretty good, so we'll assume you want to use HN as intended. Please do read those guidelines though!
nugga 9y ago
I don't think you can patent and steal a monopoly on a drug synthesized in 1912.
- trendia 9y ago
  Sometimes this is true, however there are many tricks that biotech companies use to prevent generics. The first is the very high cost ($ billions) of getting through FDA approval for a drug. Once a company has done this approval, then other companies must show drug equivalence in order to produce generics that can stand in. They have to wait for the patents to expire, or figure out how to get around existing patents, but that's still not enough. They must show that their drug is equivalent to the existing drug. But this is not easy task, because the incumbent will do everything they can to prevent anyone else from getting the drug for research purposes. (e.g. the incumbent will claim that a particular company trying to get the drug does not fit their safety protocols, and thus refuse to provide the drug. Because the company cannot get access to the drug, they can't prove equivalence.) Another method is that a prescription for one drug does not always guarantee that the prescription can be used for a generic drug of the same sort [0]. The incumbent company will spend lots on marketing by buying lunch for doctors, giving them notepads and pens, etc. Then, the doctor will write a prescription for that drug as write "Dispense as Written." This prevents the pharmacist from providing a generic alternative, even if they're biologically equivalent! A final method is to develop a drug with a particular injection mechanism. For instance, if a drug company puts MDMA in a patch, then they can get a patent for the combination MDMA + patch, get approval, and then get doctors to prescribe it. (Maybe it provides a small dose over a long period?) This can occur even if MDMA was first synthesized a century ago. The prescription for the patch cannot be used for a pill form, or vice versa. This guarantees the drug company revenue as long as they can convince doctors to prescribe it. So, to make a long story short, there are a lot of ways that drug companies guarantee their $$$ and prevent competitors from eating their lunch. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/some-doctors-insist-on-brand-name-drugs-even-when-cheaper-generics-are-available/2011/06/13/gIQAmC0L9H_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/some-doctors-insist-...

kristofferR 9y ago

Paywall bypass: https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/920703548115046400 https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/920703548115046400

dredmorbius 9y ago
Also: http://archive.is/kOj9S http://archive.is/kOj9S

Overtonwindow 9y ago

I think a lot of the psychotropic drugs can help us unlock new treatments. IMO, if we can remove the morality issues from some of this research, we'll see greater progress. I'm also hopeful that cannabis will make its way into more research.

PhasmaFelis 9y ago

We're slowly realizing that there's not actually a difference between dangerous drugs and miraculous medicines. The dose (and the circumstances) make the poison, always.

loeg 9y ago
LD50 vs effective dose still matters. Some drugs are inherently more dangerous than others. (This is not a jab at illicit substances — tylenol is problematic.) But yes, we're very much realizing that DEA scheduling is not based in evidence (and actually prevents gathering of further evidence).
- jtmcmc 9y ago
  we've known this for a very long time that legality of drugs had very little to do with their actual danger to society or individuals and much more to do with fear mongering and racism
  - collyw 9y ago
    Fear mongering, as we have the same attitude in the UK, but not the race divide that the States has (we have a very similar divide along the lines of class however).
- Turing_Machine 9y ago
  Tylenol/acetaminophen/APAP/paracetamol immediately came to mind for me as well. It's flat-out amazing to me that shit is still allowed on the market. It hammers your liver really hard, especially in combination with alcohol. In fact, it's the foremost cause of acute liver failure in the entire western world. The kicker: it doesn't even work very well. Other pain relievers are much more effective, and have a much higher margin of safety.
  - 0xcde4c3db 9y ago
    The funny thing is that if you ask the average American whether Tylenol or aspirin is safer, they'd probably say Tylenol unless they specifically know about the liver issue. I think this ultimately comes from acetaminophen having remarkably few interactions, but has been spun by marketing into a general sense of "safety".

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

AElsinore77 9y ago

If you are unable to observe a thing directly, and instead could only see it through a distortion lens, would you want the opportunity to look at it through multiple different distortion lenses instead of just one? The world we know is largely constructed by semi-conscious and sub-conscious processes, from world building processes (such as how the mind filters and modifies information to construct our reality), to conclusions we make about the world, ourselves, and what is possible (emotionally motivated reasoning, decision heuristics, predictive modeling). Google deep dream provides interesting insight into psychedelic phenomena, and hints at what is changing in the mind’s world-building process when on those substances. When it comes to MDMA, because it so dramatically changes emotion, it can also dramatically shift reasoning and thinking heuristics that unconsciously originate from emotion. This can transform beliefs that you once took for self-evident fact, into things that you now realize represent how you feel more than reality. Some further reading that I found very valuable: World Building Process: https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how_your_brain_hallucinates_your_conscious_reality https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how_your_brain_hallucina... Deep Dream: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2015/07/google_deepdream_it_s_dazzling_creepy_and_tells_us_a_lot_about_the_future.html http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2015/07/goo...

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

anythingnonidin 9y ago

It is absolutely shocking to me that research into MDMA and classic psychedelics isn't swamped with funding. I'd imagine that some wealthy people must find this stuff extremely intriguing - Yuri Milner is spending $100 million on space exploration, and an MDMA phase 3 research trial needs ~$15 million and finds it really hard to raise money? Both have extremely high therapeutic potential, classic psychedelics in particular are interesting in the same way that space exploration is interesting. And as diogenescynic noted elsewhere, it's even more shocking that we as a society put up with it.

westoncb 9y ago
Maybe it's due to fear of social stigma? Something like, "Yuri Milner spends $100 million on psychedelic drug research" —could be reputation changing.
- tibbon 9y ago
  If I had an extra $100mm, I wouldn't worry about my reputation too much :)
  - chc 9y ago
    Once you have hundreds of millions of dollars, your reputation is practically all you have to worry about.
- soundwave106 9y ago
  I think that might have been true a couple of decades ago, but I'm not sure if it's the case today. A good recent example is ketamine. The drug, or, rather, the mechanism behind it, has gotten a large push research wise of late, since it was discovered that ketamine relieved depression using a mechanism that current anti-depressants do not utilize. Until further drugs are developed, "ketamine clinics" for off-label treatment-resistant depression also exist. And there really doesn't seem to be a huge issue made about them. I would hazard a guess (unfortunately) that one of the barriers here regarding fundraising among more commercial interests is the lack of the ability to patent, which means that the rewards for making MDMA as a treatment are not as great, as far as commercial backers would be concerned. In the case of ketamine, drug companies are trying to develop chemicals that use the same mechanism, but do not have the hallucinogenic side effects (an example currently in Phase III would be Rapastinel). These efforts are able to get corporate funding. Also, MAPS is more "advocacy group" than "medical industry", not that there is a problem with that, but they might be outside the circle of what the typical drug trial fundraising process goes through. If MDMA even remotely has a chance (the fact that it passed Phase II trials suggests this is the case), I definitely think it would be worth exploring, as current medication options for PTSD seem to largely be limited to anti-depressants (SSRI etc.). Ala ketamine, this would be a new approach.

anythingnonidin 9y ago

I recommend reading or listening to the book Acid Test if anyone here would like to learn more about the therapeutic potential of MDMA and classic psychedelics (e.g. psilocybin/magic mushrooms).

LouisSayers 9y ago

It's good that people with serious issues can get some help via drugs like MDMA, but I do think people should be careful. I feel that certain groups of people are a bit flippant about drug use, and seem eager to promote them as these great things. As an example of why we should still remain vigilant - studies have shown MDMA users to literally have shrunken bits of their brain. http://www.maps.org/news/media/2462-media-reports-of-ecstasy-and-brain-shrinkage-overblown http://www.maps.org/news/media/2462-media-reports-of-ecstasy... I remain cautious of people that promote these things - we should know about the side effects so we can make informed decisions. Overall, I think it's good to open up laws to allow usage of this, but let's not forget the people who suffer from or may be prone to suffer from drug abuse, and maybe think twice before promoting these things to friends.

anythingnonidin 9y ago
Interesting link, and an important note on it: > Additional commentary: Upon examining this report, human neuroscience researcher Matthew Johnson noted that the researchers did not do a convincing job at "matching" the ecstasy users and control participants on other drug use. The ecstasy users had considerably more use of other drugs, but the statistical tests of whether the groups differed in this respect lacked sufficient power to detect differences in drug use.
eric_h 9y ago
> studies have shown MDMA users to literally have shrunken bits of their brain. http://www.maps.org/news/media/2462-media-reports-of-ecstasy.. http://www.maps.org/news/media/2462-media-reports-of-ecstasy.... I only had a chance to skim that article, but it is equating tablets of ecstasy with MDMA, which is a false equivalence. "Ecstasy tablets" usually contain some MDMA, but can also contain a whole bunch of other shit, including cocaine, heroine, speed, MDA, etc. I think the jury's still out on whether pure MDMA has the same downsides from frequent use.
- taneq 9y ago
  And even then, there's a huge difference between "frequent recreational use" (and it's not uncommon for recreational users to take 10+ pills in a night, and to use every weekend) and "theraputic use". Habitual club users do tend to get pretty fuzzy after a while but they're not using the drug in any remotely responsible way. Taking them as a reason to keep MDMA illegal is like saying that drunks exist and so doctors shouldn't be allowed to use alcohol swabs.

anythingnonidin 9y ago

I'm very interested in this stuff. See my submissions for other interesting articles on the potential of MDMA and classic psychedelics (magic mushrooms, LSD) to help both unwell and healthy people be happier & healthier: https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=anythingnonidin https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=anythingnonidin This site has an overview of where MDMA and classic psychedelics may be useful, and the most effective things you can do to help the science + safe access progress: http://www.rethinkpsychedelics.org/ http://www.rethinkpsychedelics.org/

anythingnonidin 9y ago

The "MDMA Therapy" subreddit has some decent info: https://www.reddit.com/r/mdmatherapy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mdmatherapy/

anythingnonidin 9y ago

If anyone is wondering how they can help make sure this research happens, the single most helpful thing I'm aware of is helping MAPS find people interested in large (6 or 7 figures) donations. You could reach out to askmaps@maps.org or via another channel if that describes you or a friend

tibbon 9y ago

I wish I knew who (realistically) was against this, but supports the ability of pharma companies to ship opiates. And why?

anythingnonidin 9y ago
As far as I'm aware, there isn't really anyone strongly against it, there just aren't enough (wealthy) people who are strongly supporting it. The main barrier by far is funding, which my understanding is mostly comes from large (6-7 figure) funders. So, some "opposition": - Apathy - Desire to not spend money / pass on majority of wealth to future generations - Lack of knowledge - Belief that donating to MDMA/psilocybin research isn't an effective way to donate money I think the biggest one is just wealthy people, understandably, are hesitant to donate their money. Logically it seems many of them understand that they won't be able to spend through it all and will still have substantial resources for future generations, but emotionally I imagine it would be hard to cut a $5 million check to a non-profit. I don't think it's a lack of billionaires aware of MDMA - there should be more than enough billionaires from the burning man crowd alone.

cnp 9y ago

Please Donate to MAPS (the organization coordinating this research) if you can -- they need funding now more than ever: https://store.maps.org/np/clients/maps/donation.jsp?campaign=11 https://store.maps.org/np/clients/maps/donation.jsp?campaign...

justinpombrio 9y ago
Thank you for the link. I donated, and probably wouldn't have if you hadn't.
- cnp 9y ago
  Thank you :)

DonHopkins 9y ago

They put it on everything here in the Netherlands. Just ask for "Friet met MDMAyonaise".

dagaci 9y ago

MDMA as a tool for treatment has always been obvious to me. Any drug which can give you such a massive high, taking you so completely out of that low is a method bringing a person more in-tune to a place they should be. But of course and critically at the same time the user should have the right thought processes in place for it to be effective and not something they cling too in a recreational cycle, in my mind it should only need to be one-time event.