4 ms·
‘MAYBE IT’S a PIECE OF DUST’
- peterwwillis 9y agoSo buy a different computer? I can't be the only person who remembers when a can of compressed air was a part of performance tuning, or when your mouse ball got its regular maintenance.
- ceejayoz 9y ago> I can't be the only person who remembers when a can of compressed air was a part of performance tuning, or when your mouse ball got its regular maintenance. These things are solved problems now. Regressions are bad. If they've made the keyboard less reliable, they should fix it.
- sp332 9y agoIf a can of compressed air could have fixed the problem, this wouldn't be a problem. You should read the linked article, it's good.
- tgb 9y agoI just manually fixed my mouse's scroll wheel middle click functionality from doing this 'double click' problem. You can take apart the switch and bend the spring a bit manually to get it back to shape. I don't know how the Mac keyboards work, but I'd be taking to Google to find a similar solution. Then again, my mouse was long out of warranty. Sad that the store assistants have to stupidly run through the diagnostic tests when that's obviously not the kind of problem here.
- sp332 9y agoYou should read the linked article. You can't remove the spacebar without breaking the mechanism. The solution to a broken spacebar is to replace the whole "top" of the computer which will cost $700 when out of warranty. That's why they ran so many diagnostic tests first.
- tgb 9y agoOkay, sorry I read the article linked and not the article linked by the linked article that was hidden in the title of the first article. It was completely unclear to me that there even was a second article; it looked like just a few paragraphs of mini-rant.
- sp332 9y agoYup, a good reason to observe the rule to only post original articles, and kill this one.
- y7 9y agoHN thread on the linked blog post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15496745 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15496745
- busterarm 9y agoThe thing that's notable here is that it's Daring Fireball calling Apple out here... That aside, I'm glad I put one of the silicone skins (from Uppercase) over my keyboard from day 1 and leave it on 100% of the time. I mostly use an external keyboard anyway, but at least I feel somewhat protected.
- robert_foss 9y agoAgreed. Rarely has a negative word about any Apple product been written on Daring Fireball. Normally the only reasons to read it is if you want to feel good about an Apple purchase you've already made.
- alsetmusic 9y ago> Agreed. Rarely has a negative word about any Apple product been written on Daring Fireball. I pulled these from the front page of DF today, 2017-10-18. While John Gruber clearly writes an abundance of positive Apple stories, your charactarization is inaccurate. THE IMPOSSIBLE DREAM OF USB-C > USB-C is a dual disaster… Now that all modern Apple MacBooks are USB-C-only, USB-C’s problems are MacBook problems, too. https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c IOS IS RIPE FOR PHISHING PASSWORD PROMPTS https://krausefx.com/blog/ios-privacy-stealpassword-easily-get-the-users-apple-id-password-just-by-asking https://krausefx.com/blog/ios-privacy-stealpassword-easily-g... IPHONE CHARGING TIMES BY CHARGER > I’m on the side that this is Apple cheaping out. https://twitter.com/dwlz/status/917443870509715456 https://twitter.com/dwlz/status/917443870509715456 Cultural Insularity and Apple TV > It’s not enough to make a better set-top box. It has to be obviously better. I don’t think Apple TV’s current lineup makes that case. https://daringfireball.net/2017/09/cultural_insularity_and_apple_tv https://daringfireball.net/2017/09/cultural_insularity_and_a...
- sgustard 9y agoTo be fair, he's called out Apple before, especially on software quality. Ironically: "Maybe we expect too much from Apple’s software. But Apple’s hardware doesn’t have little problems like this." https://daringfireball.net/2016/02/apples_app_problem https://daringfireball.net/2016/02/apples_app_problem
- schpaencoder 9y agoRetire Ive, I've had enough with thin. There is no point in going further with this guy. I want a laptop with a mechanical keyboard.
- MrScruff 9y agoI like thin. When I pick up my gf's previous gen MBP it feels heavy and bulky. I imagine that's also what the majority of the market feels, hence Apple's design choices.
- amiga-workbench 9y agoI don't think there is any sense in shrinking laptops any further, it's just compromising repairability, thermal management capacity, battery capacity and input device haptic feedback. I miss socketed CPUs on laptops, I've upgraded the CPU in many of my old ThinkPads over the years to get some more life out of them. Of course, disposable computing is more profitable...
- ctdonath 9y agoThe only reason to stop shrinking laptops is that the physical UI can only get so small before UX suffers - and that includes making it thick enough to hold onto. Leverage that limit by continuing to shrink components so we can fill the remaining space with more battery. They physical overhead (size, weight, cost) of socketed CPU/RAM/etc just isn't worth imposing on 99.99% of users who will never make use of that capability. This is exacerbated by the increased synergy of the components: a major part of Apple's success comes from managing the interconnectedness of all things, all carefully balanced for exact purposes - not generalized for 3rd-party parts swapping (for which failures get blamed on Apple, not the cheap POS part you thought might work). You want a lightweight high-quality device with long battery life? You're not going to get it with CPU sockets and access panels. By now, most users have learned that computers ARE disposable: come end-of-life, vanishingly few will want to futz around with upgrading parts at cost of time spent, only to extend the life of a machine straining into obsolescence. We all dearly want to hang onto those old familiar machines, but fact is by the time a product hits that point you don't want something running the best of 5-year-old+ tech, you want the next generation with better everything. I keep coming back to a rule of thumb: for something used heavily, daily, is it worth $X/day? An iPhone X over 3 years is $1/day. A robust MacBook used for work is certainly worth $3/day. Come practical end-of-life, it has more than paid for itself. ...and that's why Apple has made it so easy to switch up to a new machine, and abandoned notions of component upgrades. If coffee costs more during that time than the hardware in question, get a new one and sell/donate the old (making the switch even cheaper).
- tsm 9y agoWe seem to be at this awkward stage in the simplification of technology. Consumers no longer want to engage in maintenance and minor repairs—peterwwillis above points out using compressed air on your keyboard and taking care of your mouseball used to be standard, and I remember slightly-but-not-very tech-savvy people adding RAM, swapping a hard drive, replacing a keyboard, etc. However, the reliability of devices hasn't quite reached the point where we can get away with zero maintenance. Improving reliability is hard and this is HN, so I'm in favor of gently reminding consumers that a basic understanding of how things work is useful—in laptops, in cars, in home improvement. And I wish companies would make more maintainable and repairable products. I've been using old Thinkpads for years since I can replace individual parts that fail. I also bought an old Jeep Wrangler to learn how to do the same with cars.
- sp332 9y agoCasey Johnston writes for The Wirecutter and used to work for Ars Technica. She did a review video (which I won't bother digging up since this thread is dead) surveying different keyboard technologies. She doesn't need a reminder to learn about how her keyboard works. Edit: in retrospect, that's why the "original sources only" rule is important. Half the comments here wouldn't even have been made if people had started there.
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago> I remember slightly-but-not-very tech-savvy people adding RAM, swapping a hard drive, replacing a keyboard, etc. I'd argue those were still early adopters, a part of the 10% or even 5% of the world that owned a computer at the time.
- jhoechtl 9y agoIt's getting increasingly difficult to swap those things as they are more and more soldered on or the case cant be opened.
- platz 9y ago> Consumers no longer want to engage in maintenance and minor repairs Those aren't the same consumers. There are more of them now.
- anotherproj 9y agoMaybe the "genius" wasn't a technical wizard, doesn't realize he is talking to John Gruber, and is offering an explanation that seems to be recognizable to most laypeople: maybe your spacebar isn't working because something is physically interfering with it
- theak 9y agoI've also found the new 2017 MacBook w/ Touchbar keyboard to be extremely problematic. Many of the time the keys that I press don't work and I have to press them again. Tried compressed air, but to no avail :( Meanwhile my 2012 MacBook still has a perfectly functional keyboard and has never had these sorts of issues before... All on a brand new $3k laptop. This computer has caused me so many problems.
- peterwwillis 9y agoWhat on earth would cause you to buy a $3,000 laptop? Are you a mechanical engineer?
- irrational 9y agoWell, if he works at a place like I do - my company pays for all of my hardware and software so I never take cost into consideration. My boss wouldn't approve it if I got too outrageous though ($3000 would not be considered outrageous).
- nikanj 9y agoAll factors considered, that's like the cost of one week's work. And you'll probably use it for 2-3 years, 5 days a week, so around $20 per work day.
- EA 9y agoBy that math, many companies would save hundreds of millions of dollars a year if they could save $14 per employee per day in laptop costs.
- irrational 9y agoHeh, I work for a Fortune 150 company and almost everyone has a macbook pro (at least judging by what I see in meetings and walking around campus). I can't even imagine how much would be saved if everyone used cheap Wintel machines.
- mnx 9y agoIf my $5 keyboard started inserting double spaces (without being flooded, or otherwise damaged), I would blame (and check) software, down to BIOS, before I thought it's a mechanical failure.
- benevol 9y agoYou can't just criticize Apple. Have some respect.
- praptak 9y agoI found it worrisome that Gruber's post is on top of HN rather than the original, much more informative post.
- untog 9y agoThe original post is a day old now - it was discussed on HN in depth: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15496745 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15496745 I'd agree though that this Gruber post doesn't really add anything of note to the original post. I suppose the fact that even an Apple diehard like him is drawing attention to is worth noting, but that's about it.
- 3pt14159 9y agoI've actually had far more problems with my previous keyboard for my previous MBP (which was amazing for the 5 years I had it aside from a dead pixel I got 3 years in and the keyboard woes). I would constantly break keys. Especially the arrow keys which were smaller. It was mind boggling to me that I was typing enough to have to replace keys. The new keyboard feels so much more robust and solid. I just wish I could put the touchbar into emoji mode after pressing a touchbar shortcut.
- VeejayRampay 9y agoEvery time I see news like this one about Apple products and what seem like obvious defects, I can't help but imagine the same situation with Google or Microsoft as the party at fault.
- larrik 9y agoI'm not sure what you mean, but when you pay through the nose for "the best quality", this stuff matters.
- oculusthrift 9y agopeople don’t pretend google or microsoft are without flaws, while apple has that reputation.
- mcphage 9y ago> I can't help but imagine the same situation with Google or Microsoft as the party at fault Well, check out the response to the Google Home Mini, where they had to disable the activation button in firmware because some units were constantly activating.
- artursapek 9y agoThat's what ya get for blindly buying everything Apple makes. The moment I checked out the keyboards on these new laptops in the Mac store was the moment I switched to Linux on Thinkpad.
- csomar 9y agoIsn't it important that we have like the number of failure out of the total? I mean, given a few millions laptops, it is almost guaranteed that some of them will go terribly wrong. If those who go wrong are very vocal, this might gives the impression that the Macbook Pro sucks. I'm typing from the 2014Pro and it is the best keyboard my hands have been working on. I tried the 2016 at the Store but I don't think that is eligible for a review.
- Fuxy 9y agoWell apple has been cruising on past successes ever since Steve Jobs died in my opinion and it seemed to work just fine for them but they seem to be getting a bit lax in their QA these days. Well that's the story of almost every major company though. They make a great splash become famous and big then they start slacking off and cutting corners to increase their profits as much as possible. It takes quite a lot of conscious effort to not fall into this pitfall and not many companies can do it.
- ssijak 9y agoI have macbook pro with touchbar. My letter B started behaving just as his space. Sometimes it would print twice on one hit, sometimes 0. I removed the button and cleaned everything and now it is fine.
- notacoward 9y agoI've had my TBMBP for just over six months. Already had to flush out the keyboard with compressed air twice because of stuck keys. Apparently I'm one of the lucky ones, because that actually worked. I've had at least a dozen laptops before, every one more than twice as long, and none of them have ever had this problem even once. Not even the super-cheap super-tiny netbooks so don't blame the technology. The technology to do better has existed for years. This is either shoddy design or shoddy manufacturing, and if I had to pay for this thing myself I'd be livid.
- scarface74 9y agoI'm in no way a Apple Hater. I follow Apple blogs and listen Apple podcasts, I never get any work done during an Apple keynote and I've had 4 Macs, and Apple //e, countless iPods, iPhones, and iPads over the years. But I can't for the life of me find anything appealing about any of Apple's Computer offering aside from the Retina iMacs. The MacBooks just feel limiting to me compared to a good Windows laptop with multitouch trackpad. Currently I'm a fan of Dell's midrange and high end 2-n-1s