16 ms·

Problems with MacBook butterfly switch keyboards

290 points by nicksergeant 9y ago

MentallyRetired 9y ago
What, you don't like hunting-and-pecking your function row?
- valleyer 9y ago
  That's not at all what the article is about.
CptJamesCook 9y ago
I despise my new Macbook's touchbar. I can't get to the volume button without stopping what I'm doing for 4-5 seconds to find the key, then press multiple buttons, I can't use the function keys, and it generally adds no value.
- btown 9y ago
  Just use the buttons on your wired headphones which are equally compatible with your iPhone and Mac... oh, wait.
  - Ninn 9y ago
    Great shitpost, too bad none wired headphones like the crowd favourites qc35 and others have volume keys too. Its sad to think that you cannot get out of your bubble and realise that this is not objectively a bad design choice, but some of us actually enjoy and applaude it.
nrclark 9y ago
My work gave me one of the 2016 15" MBPs as my main computer, and the keyboard is horrible. My V key double-presses about half the time, and the rest of the keys are really hard to press down all the way. Some of the keys make a weird metal rattle when I press them. Typing on that wretched keyboard for more than an hour or so literally bruises my fingers. Since I do most of my day-to-day work at a dock with an external keyboard, I'm debating whether it's bad enough that I need to fight with IT and be the one special snowflake with a PC instead. But it's bad enough that I'm seriously considering it. The more I write about this keyboard, the angrier I get. >:( And also seriously, fuck the touchbar. Who the hell decided that programmers don't need a functional ESC key or permanent function keys? And who the hell decided that I should have to fumble around and mash my already-bruised finger against a tiny glass icon to change my volume level? Just so Skype can show buttons that mimic the buttons already on the screen? The user experience of the touchbar is objectively worse and adds no value. Most apps don't even use it, and the ones that do don't use it for anything interesting. And before long I'm sure it'll be playing advertisements at me.
- vittore 9y ago
  I think cursor is the worst. why not cut off shift and do up and down proper keys.
  - cstejerean 9y ago
    The up/down keys are the only issue I have with the new keyboard. I routinely manage to hit it wrong and the cursor doesn’t move. The rest of it I actually like, including the touchbar.
    - FabHK 9y ago
      Cursor keys were quite a switch from the trusty old MBA. The layout is a bit different (left/right are full size keys instead of half height) and the keys are so flush with the enclosure that it was just much harder to find them "blind". Though, having had the MBP now for nearly a year, it's not an issue anymore.
- dillondoyle 9y ago
  My biggest beaf with the TouchBar: volume takes two clicks! Instead of an up down and mute button, I get mute and volume which then opens a slider to the left of the click. So instead of just clicking once to lower volume I have to click, move my finger and slide. It would be so easy to allow custom button to add back on (and maybe there is that I haven't been able to find?) I also accidentally 'touch my pinky finger when typing my password (numbers) and it registers as touch even though I'm not applying downward force. In Chrome thank god I could remove the refresh button, would accidentally refresh login pages all the time.
  - Gaelan 9y ago
    You can just put your finger on the slider key and slide. No need for tap, let go, slide. It's pretty natural.
    - kn0where 9y ago
binaryanomaly 9y ago
I‘m struggling as well since i have migrated from my 2015 macbook pro. The new keyboards are not well suited for writing more than a few occassional sentences. I make more typing mistakes and am slower than before. Worst keyboard since my whole life. Apple needs to improve this.
Gaelan 9y ago
I actually really like my 2017 MBP's keyboard. There isn't much key travel, but the keys do have a very satisfying "click." I prefer it over older apple keyboards. Keys do have issues weekly or so, but that's resolved by hitting the key a bunch; it's an inconvenience, but certainly not a dealbreaker.
- reustle 9y ago
  > Keys do have issues weekly or so, but that's resolved by hitting the key a bunch I've been considering moving to a 12 MacBook but hearing stuff like this scares me
  - saurik 9y ago
    Yeah. I'm just shocked by how much people are willing to just deal with as if it is normal or something. I have a friend who recently told me they are surprised as how much I hate my 12" MacBook as they are loving theirs... and then a little later they tell me that the O key on their keyboard doesn't work half the time and just... I just don't even... wtf. I swear all the people who love these new computers must just have extremely low standards or something: you shouldn't have to mess around with your computer every week to fix some stupid keyboard issue that wouldn't exist if the laptop was a mere millimeter thicker.
    - jjrrmm 9y ago
      I have two Macbooks from 2015 and none hat any key issues whatsoever.
  - http-teapot 9y ago
    I have two 12 MacBook at home. I've replaced the keyboard twice on one and zero times on the other. Each time some keys got stuck in pressed position which meant we had to press harder. My other had similar issues except the keys popped back up somehow. That occasional glorious press on "Return" key may lock it... and it feels terrible.
    - 9y ago
jankotek 9y ago
I have Dell XPS 13. When keyboard broke (probably my fault), technician come to my house next day and replaced it in front of me. For free, as part of basic warranty. I was on holiday in other country...
- jmkni 9y ago
  Likewise when my screen broke, their technician rolls into my office the following day with a new one, no questions asked
- slantyyz 9y ago
  In the pre-retina days, Mac laptops were quite easy to service yourself. I had a plastic Macbook that I spilled soda pop onto. The keyboard basically got fried. I ordered a replacement part from OWC and was able to fix it myself quite quickly. The only downside was having to carry an external keyboard in my bag while waiting for the part to arrive since it was my work computer.
- bitexploder 9y ago
  Dell doesn't produce the most beautiful laptops, but at least every component isn't soldered to your "logic board". It comes at a cost of larger and heavier laptops, but the XPS 13 Developer Edition I write this on is small, runs Linux, and has a beautiful display and a real keyboard I don't absolutely hate. Even Linus likes it. I am slowly turning back towards Dell for almost all my main computing accessories (laptop/monitor).
- StavrosK 9y ago
  I love my XPS 15 otherwise, but it has the same problem: A double-pressing spacebar all the damn time, and capslock+<key> (I remapped caps to ctrl) leaves <key> software-stuck until I press any other key. So far, no updates. I could send it to Dell to have the keyboard replace, but that's going to leave me without a laptop for days, and will do exactly nothing, since this is a software problem.
pudo 9y ago
This, so much. Plus, call me clumsy, but the number of times I have accidentally triggered one of the magic bar buttons is beyond count. In everyday use, it often feels like my computer just randomly mutes system audio or locks the display (I had to get rid of the Siri button, it's incredibly annoying). All of that besides the fact that you cannot really use VIM any more because the ESC button is gone...
- Gaelan 9y ago
  As a vim user, I don't find the software escape to be bad—it's always in the same spot, even if it's not a physical key. Also, in vim, you can use ctrl-[ instead of escape (which is arguably better anyway).
  - kagamine 9y ago
    Ctrl + [ won't work on any non-English keyboard as the square parenthesis are hidden behind a modifier already. This is a constant problem with software, and now hardware, manufacturers that they assume everyone in the whole wide world is using a US keyboard. Yes, you can remap and fiddle to make it work but that isn't the point, the point is to pay the same price, sometimes more than Americans and get the same value and experience. Instead we get an inferior experience that requires hacks. Not good at all.
    - tasuki 9y ago
      Interesting that you use your native keyboard for programming. I'm Czech, all the Czech programmers I know use English layout for programming.
      - kagamine 9y ago
        Here in Norway I have never once seen a non-Scandinavian layout keyboard. Not once. As I'm from the UK I have considered getting a UK or US keyboard for coding at home, but at work it isn't an option, mostly because we all have standard equipment and because ø,æ & å.
nfoz 9y ago
We had a candidate come in for interviews, and one of them was a video-conference programming session with a remote interviewer. We set them up with a Macbook (running Windows/Bootcamp) for live-coding. The candidate hit the Power button, located where DEL used to be. Laptop goes to sleep (candidate said it shut down but it probably just went to sleep). He gets it back up but then it needs a login etc., so he had to go find us non-remote staff to log back in, join VPN etc. Took about 5 minutes out of the interview, partly due to confusion + logging back into the things. I can't for the life of me understand why so many vendors have put this button on the keyboard. It was so simple and sensible to have it somewhere else. Edited: Macbook running Windows, probably just went to sleep but disruptive nonetheless, combination of hardware+software to blame.
- isatty 9y ago
  Nothing about this makes much sense - regardless of which generation macbook you're using hitting the power button accidentally will not turn it off (you can try it right now). Did your interviewee keep pressing on it for like 10 seconds?
  - nfoz 9y ago
    Hmm, it might be because we run Windows on the macbooks, but you're right -- maybe it didn't fully shut down. Even sleep is pretty disruptive; it takes my machine ~30s of playing-dead before it pops back, and I'm booted from the VPN and all my connections. I run into this accidental-coffee-break every now and then. We bought a USB keyboard + mouse for the candidates.
    - threeseed 9y ago
      Do you realise how ridiculous you sound ? You're blaming a Mac for Windows OS behaviour. On Mac OS pressing the power button does nothing, it takes seconds to come back from sleep and it never drops VPN unless you are going to sleep for hours.
      - aluhut 9y ago
suresk 9y ago
The new MBPs are such a mixed bag for me.. I got one at work, while I still use a 2012 MBP, and I go back and forth on some things.... 1) New keyboard took a while to get used to, and it does seem like they are a little finicky. After a while, I've gotten used to the feel of it and actually prefer it for the most part. The arrow keys are really hard to use, though.. I do hate that it is such an expensive/involved thing to replace the keyboard. 2) The enlarged trackpad is kinda nice sometimes, but really hard to use other times.. The way I rest my hands on my laptop when I'm using it while sitting back or lying down always results in mis-clicks and other problems with the new trackpad. I'd rather have the smaller-sized one, but I realize others may not have the same problems I do. 3) TouchID is really handy, but the TouchBar is an unfortunate gimmick. I keep trying to find good uses for it, but it mostly ends up being kinda useless - anything I can do with it, I could do before with less work. I hope it goes away, or at least becomes an optional thing in the future. Overall, while it is nice to have a laptop that is smaller/lighter, the way Apple is sacrificing all sorts of other stuff (performance, repairability) to minimize size/weight sometimes feels wrong for what it supposed to be a professional series laptop.
- threeseed 9y ago
  Use BetterTouchTool for the Touch Bar. It allows you to customise it for each application and assign your own buttons based on menu items, scripts etc. For development it is amazing. I have dedicated buttons for Build, Run, Debug, Stop, Step Into and Step Over. For terminal I can adjust terminal profiles with one button. Also blame Intel more than Apple for performance issues.
  - crispinb 9y ago
    > For development it is amazing. I have dedicated buttons for Build, Run, Debug, Stop, Step Into and Step Over I have these in IntelliJ as standard key combos (some being Fn keys). All of these I can touch type. I can't see how this would be improved by having to look down at the mini-screen at the top of the keyboard.
    - threeseed 9y ago
kn0where 9y ago
The best kind of controversial Apple design is one that people grumble about because it's ahead of its time, but which ultimately replaces one way of doing things with another that's better for most use cases. See: ditching floppies and adopting USB on the first iMac. The worst kind of controversial Apple design is one that people grumble about because it's aesthetically pleasing but actually makes the product less user-friendly. See: the hockey-puck mouse on the first iMac. Regarding that second kind, sometimes Apple recognizes their mistake and, in a future iteration, completely replaces the bad design with a better one. More recently, they seem too infatuated with their initial design decisions and just keep putting band-aids on fundamentally flawed implementations. The butterfly keyboard mentioned in TFA is on its third(!) revision, and it's still clearly flawed. Another example: Apple "fixed" the impossible-to-tell-in-the-dark-which-way-you're holding-it Apple TV remote by putting a single tactile ring around one button, rather than just designing an ergonomic remote that makes it tougher for you to accidentally engage the touchpad and cancel out of the movie you're watching. So why might Apple underestimate the severity of bad design decisions? Apple's direction with the Mac lineup as of late is a great example of "success hides problems." [1] Supposedly, the 2016 MacBook Pros sold very well, despite a number of bad design choices that put form over function: - The keyboard design as described in TFA - The touch bar (only available on the high end models). The designer must have really hated those useless, ugly fkeys. But instead of putting the touch bar above the fkeys, they eliminated them. The touch bar is not a substitute, unless all you used the fkeys for was changing volume, etc. - Eliminated all other ports in favor of USB-C, which while great in theory is in fact a highly fragmented incompatible ecosystem of poor quality peripherals and cables that don't give the user any visual indicator as to whether they work together. [2] IMHO, many if not most of these MacBook Pro customers are buying not because of these bad design decisions but in spite of them. Computers are amazing because they're fun and powerful general purpose machines. These machines may meet some subset of people's needs better than the old ones did. But in exchange for that, they've stopped (or soon will stop) meeting the needs of many, many more. Somebody once said "design is how it works." If you live in a sterile white world where there's no dust and you never plug anything into your laptop, maybe this product works for you. The rest of us don't have that luxury. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=success+hides+problems https://www.google.com/search?q=success+hides+problems [2] https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c
saurik 9y ago
Based on the title I assumed that this person was going to be complaining about joint damage due to the low key travel. This keyboard on my 12" MacBook is so bad that between having to get the top case replaced to fix broken keys (when as stated in the article, careful blowing didn't work and trying to replace the keys caused them to break) and my fingers feeing like they have aged many years from the poor ergonomics of no key travel (something I am extremely pissed about) I have mostly just stopped using a laptop: even when using this computer it is now docked at my home with an external monitor and a real keyboard. You have to understand that I am someone who hates desktop computers and has been using the 11" MacBook Air since the moment it came out as a replacement to an HP Mini... I love small computers, but this one is trash. I have it on my todo list to move back to my now-repaired 11" Air, but the thought of having to do that much data movement is demoralizing, particularly as I have grown accustomed to the high-resolution screen. I am not sure what to do as I just can't understand how Apple thinks these keyboards are reasonable... it just seems so obvious that this is dumb.
- micaksica 9y ago
  Your story resonated with me because I had the same experiences with a 12” MacBook. While I can’t really use you as an example, since you kind of need a Mac for a lot of the work you do specifically, I’ve heard the same complaints about Apple hardware from other long-time Mac users that don’t actually need to have a Mac. I am curious how many of those of us that don’t need macOS day to day have voted with their wallet away from Apple’s pro line, and what they switched to. I still use a mid-2014 MacBook Pro at work, but at home when it was time to upgrade I took the same path you did and went for the 12” MacBook. It sucked in every way. Now I’m the owner of a Dell XPS, the supposed most Mac-like PC, and I’m simply stuck with another set of problems: it’s developed a great amount of coil whine, thermal management is spotty to say the least, and the sound card drivers have to be reinstalled every few reboots else it will not detect when I have plugged or unplugged headphones, which has me carrying around a USB DAC. When I need macOS, I’m still running High Sierra on a quad-core Mac Mini server from 2011. The sad thing is that I don’t think there is a good option at this point. All of the “alternatives” to the MacBook contain their own faults.
  - 9y ago
localcdn 9y ago
It's rare seeing an ad get through ublock and hosts filters.
- dabockster 9y ago
  This site probably has its own ad system. The way to go imo.
- chrisper 9y ago
  Yes, but I didn't find that ad "out of place" or annoying. So I do not mind!
  - wingworks 9y ago
    I had the same feeling, I don't mind ads if they are done well.
- aembleton 9y ago
  The outer div from the advert has a data-dfp-pixel attribute with a value of a doubleclick URL. I'm not sure what that is about, but I guess it is for tracking. The images themselves are coming from the imgix CDN for outline-brand so they do seem to be providing their own adverts, but maybe using doubleclick for some sort of engagement tracking. I'm not really sure.
ricw 9y ago
I like the feel of the new keyboard, though I have two issues with it: 1. sometimes buttons do lock up. i'm unsure whether this is the same issue as in the article, but by pressing them harder they typically start working again. 2. the keyboard is much louder than the one on my prior MacBook pro. I feel very self-conscious whenever i type anywhere public. Maybe this is just me being self-conscious..
- saurik 9y ago
  I have also noticed that the new keyboard is much louder, which would be tolerable if it were higher quality, but it isn't: it is simply inferior technology.
j7ake 9y ago
Once bash on windows gets sufficiently close to my needs and I am able to swap alt with ctrl, I will little resistance for going from OS X to windows.
- rjeli 9y ago
  linux as daily driver is honestly good, from the bottom of my heart (I recommend xfce)
  - j7ake 9y ago
    Also if any Linux laptop can give me 8 plus hours of productive battery life I am also switching. I had problems with an old one where closing laptop lid drained all the battery so I constantly had to worry about the on state of my laptop
    - mickael-kerjean 9y ago
      It's already here. I got between 13h (normal workload) to 25h (no internet and Emacs only) on the Lenovo x270 with arch and i3wm
      - j7ake 9y ago
        Great thanks good to know. Do you have any issues with sleep or closing lid draining battery ?
        bitexploder 9y ago
        Ehh, anecdotal, I know, but a couple of our new MBPs we have bought kernel panic and never wake up from sleep either. I have a Dell XPS 13 and it wakes and sleeps. I recommend cruising the Arch Linux Wiki for your specific laptop you have in mind. It is rare for it to not have some sort of issue you need to iron out around sleep.
        mickael-kerjean 9y ago
desireco42 9y ago
Complete opposite is new Surface Book or however it is called. Keyboard travels just fine, it has touch screen, long life... I am writing this on Mac, I have several more, but since passing of Steve Jobs, things are just not right. Anyhow, looking at new Microsoft machine, with great graphics card and every feature I would want (sd card, thank you!), couldn't help but think about how things have changed. Oh and biggie, it has Esc key! Can you imagine that :)
- desireco42 9y ago
  Ha ha ha, truth hurts so much :) How Apple dares not be cool :) I am in the same boat, I am just not as messed up as you downvoters.
rothbardrand 9y ago
I have the 2016 MBP, and have been using it extensively in third world conditions this year. The keyboard has been so good that I didn't even notice it. What I do notice is having to limit myself to the 15 inch display vs the two 40" 4k displays I have at home. The machine supports four, and I would buy a third 4k display (This time UHD) if I could figure out a desk arrangement that supports all three and still keep the MBP in easy reach. I love my MBP. The flash storage was a little more expensive than I wanted, and I'm going to wait an extra year to upgrade. Anyway. this isn't a product story- the keyboard is fine. This is a service story-- Apple should have fixed his right the first time. PS- Touch Bar is great.
- indemnity 9y ago
  Yep, I have the 2013 15” rMBP and the 2016 15” rMBP. Much prefer the keyboard on the 2016 model. Just two gripes: - keyboard is noisy as hell, very noticeable in conference calls - trackpad is way too big, it’s hard to find a resting position. six months in i still accidentally touch it when not meaning to.
  - wingworks 9y ago
    Yeah, I like the touchbar, but yeah was a little disappointed in how loud the keyboard and even the trackpad, coming from a 2015 MBP.
- forgottenpass 9y ago
  I'm not sure what to make of your post. Are you trying to argue that your personal lack of experiencing a component failure means the component's fleet-wide failure rate is acceptable? Or are you just saying you like your computer, and tossed in a flippant assumption that you don't really stand behind?
tomcam 9y ago
I too have found this keyboard it to be a disaster. I made the mistake of buying two MacBooks as soon as the first 12" model was released, one for me and one for my wife, and my wife's keyboard had so many problems we took it in to Apple. All they could do was offered to swap out the keyboard for a mere $400. My wife refused, and the problem mysteriously solved itself. Meanwhile, mine "works", but the short key travel makes touch typing next to impossible even after two years of use. I have just purchased an inexpensive windows computer from a Lenovo and I'm trying to get accustomed to Windows 10 so I have a workable keyboard. This is a big deal because I am deep into Apples ecosystem and lock-in. I do not want to switch but I type all day and I can't bear to buy another Macintosh because the keywords have all gone this way. I am however considering purchasing a new old stock MacBook Air.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  Where's a good place to find new old stock MacBooks?
  - nadavami 9y ago
    I've always had good results with Apple's refurbished devices.
- FabHK 9y ago
  FWIW, I've had intermittent problems with one or the other key on the MBP keyboard, but as you said, after a while they went away. Maybe I ground down that damn speck of dust.
jamesrcole 9y ago
It sounds like there's real, serious problems with it, but nothing in the article comes close to justifying the hyperbolic title.
Camillo 9y ago
I just realized that they don't even sell the old form factor any more. They kept it around for a while, but now it's gone. Where can I get an old-style MBP?
executesorder66 9y ago
> “Hold on,” I said. “If a single piece of dust lays the whole computer out, don't you think that's kind of a problem?” > ... > The Genius shrugged empathetically. He cast around and pointed to a nearby pre-2015 MacBook Pro with relatively thicker keys. "I have one of those," he said apologetically. Wow. That's got to be the worst tech-support I have ever heard of.
- heartbreak 9y ago
  What do you expect him to say? He's not an Apple engineer. He didn't design the keyboard. He's a blue-shirt working customer service at an Apple store.
  - executesorder66 9y ago
    I expect him to say something along the lines of, "I don't know, let me see what I can find out and I'll get back to you." Imagine your lawn mower broke, and took it to a repair shop. You complain it doesn't switch on. The repair guy says maybe there is a piece of grass that got inside, and that's why it's not working. You say that sounds like a really bad design if a lawn mower can't handle a piece of grass. He says, "Oh, well I use some other model." How is that even remotely helpful?
kalleboo 9y ago
I had keys go bad twice on my 2017 MBP, but both times I've managed to "massage" them back to life by pressing down hard and wiggling the keys around. My previous laptop, the original 2012 MBP Retina, lasted 5 years. I have my doubts this one is built as robustly... That said I actually enjoy typing on this keyboard. The short travel and sharp, stable clickiness has lowered my typing error rate and makes it feel like I'm typing faster. I was never a good typist though.
skocznymroczny 9y ago
I love the keyboard on new MacBooks. I'd like to have a keyboard like that for my desktop PC actually. I like how low travel it is, allowing me to type super fast with minimal effort, also it is nice to touch and makes nice sounds when typing.
- efficax 9y ago
  I also love the 12" MB keyboards. And the new MBP keyboards are even better. I treat my 2016 12" MB like shit, throw it in my bag without a case, eat in its general area, and I've never had an issue with dust messing up the kb. But I believe that there's a design flaw here that apple should fix. But the keyboards are great from every other angle.
manigandham 9y ago
Side note: the Apple store is the worst retail experience I've had, every single time. The entire process seems to be designed for clueless geriatric retirees who have plenty of time and no understanding of technology to be slowly accosted and removed of their money by the exact opposite of a genius.
- akeck 9y ago
  Other than saying 'Hi', I generally don't interact with anyone in the Apple Store these days. I get what I need, scan the bar codes of the items I'm buying in the Apple Store app, and then walk out.
  - manigandham 9y ago
    Sure, but all of their actual hardware is not available that way. If you're just buying accessories, then you probably could've just bought them online anyway. Downloading an app to go shopping at the store isn't appealing.
eknkc 9y ago
I have a 15” 2016 model and I’m close to throwing it out of my office window. My b and n keys acted up randomly. B would hit twice on each press and n would miss keystrokes sometimes. Cleaned it with air, massaged the keys, removed caps and cleaned etc. Other keys started following. Apple here in Turkey does not have the same support you guys in US seem to enjoy. They gave me a 15 day repair window, no offer of replacements etc. I simply can’t live without it for 15 days so I’m still using this piece of shit broken laptop. I’d buy a replacement and send this one to repair only to sell it but then I’d still need to buy a MBP because of macOS. One of these days I’m gonna pull thr plug and go all linux.
zelos 9y ago
Even Gruber is worried: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macboo...
KayL 9y ago
I replaced my broken MBP 2013 to 2017. The keyboard is really horrible!! The 2013 KB was wonderful and I can't find any other laptop with same great KB. With the new MBP, after one month of purchase, the display is down. I went to Apple Store, and they told me 3 days for repair but I never get any email/tel contacts after a week and their online status remained "repairing". Until I call them back, they told me they contacted and I didn't pick up their phone. Now after 2 months, I found a video quality issue on their FaceTime camera (with sunlight, same issue): https://imgur.com/a/AQTOw https://imgur.com/a/AQTOw Has anyone with the same experience?
pimeys 9y ago
This autumn I finally needed to buy a new laptop and spent some time testing and figuring out which keyboard I like the most. The funny thing was that the only seriously decent laptop keyboard is in a model that has a limited release and will probably sell out in the coming weeks: The ThinkPad 25th anniversary edition. How can it be that to get a seriously good keyboard for programming, I need to get a novelty laptop and get it fast until it sells out. If you have a chance to test it somewhere and can take a hit with a FHD panel, this is definitely a fast and robust laptop.
- bitexploder 9y ago
  I think FHD is a feature. Even on a 15" laptop it is around 140ppi, thats... a lot. And FHD saves on battery life significantly on anything not Apple. I specifically ordered a Precision 7520 this week with an anti-glare FHD with no mic or webcam because 140+ PPI is a good balance for me and it extends battery life significantly. 96 ppi is the old standard. 140ppi generally gives a very nice and crisp screen. The 220 or so on most MBP retina is nice, but probably overkill starting around 180ppi in my estimation.
  - pimeys 9y ago
    It's definitely ok! I just had a ThinkPad X1 Carbon to test from work and I kind of liked the WQHD resolution with the crisp colors. At least for 15" screen and keeping one Emacs and one terminal side by side was a nice way to work and I could easily read the text. Not complaining though, everything else in this T25 is so much better.
  - mikejmoffitt 9y ago
    Agreed, and I'm happy that I'm not the only person with this view on display density. I can deal with HiDPI displays if it allows me to to a 1:2 integer scale without losing too much real estate, but any scaling between there loses small pixel details. As someone who appreciates sharp bitmap fonts and pixel graphics, the retina MBP is a big irritation.
- mikejmoffitt 9y ago
  I just received my T25. They are already unavailable in the US. I will soon be making a comparison video between the T25, my X62, and the old X300. I will say that the panel itself is a good panel, 1080p aside. It is like the one in the T450s - good white point, linear constant-current backlight driver (no flickery low-freq PWM!)
antoinevg 9y ago
When I got my first MacBookPro in 2009 I was sold instantly. Not because of the specs, I had given up a Dell costing a quarter of the price with higher resolution display, more memory, a nicer keyboard and faster CPU. I was sold because, unlike any of the other Windows & Linux computers I owned at the time, it did not make me angry when I used it. I miss _that_ MacBookPro.
singularity2001 9y ago
if you are a halfways professional and care about your fingers never type on any laptop keyboard unless you absolutely have to.
mrmondo 9y ago
I might sound like the black sheep here - but I really enjoy typing on the new MacBook keyboard, even when switching from my DAS ultimate on my desktop and back - I truly enjoy it and make far less mistakes while typing faster. What I do think is completely useless is he touchbar, nice idea but no real use.
madmax108 9y ago
It constantly amazes me how a product which is so widely criticized by the dev community, ends up selling so well. Really shows how Apple dropped the ball from making a system which became the de-facto developer laptop (whether I like that it did or not is a different question), right upto this clunky mess which is a far cry from their earlier versions I still maintain that the 2012 rMBP, which were the last Macbooks that came out under Jobs IIRC, were the most stable developer-focussed iteration of the MBP. No heating issues, a sexy screen, stable non-glitchy non-hanging OS, and a wonderful experience overall!
- heisenbit 9y ago
  Are thy selling well? Apple's market share is not growing. I got a 2012 MBP and the money to buy a new one. What I see is not convincing me I get value for money. Apple used to know that basics matter but recently they are innovating on the margin. That only gets you so far onto the ice...
JoshMnem 9y ago
Try ThinkPad + Linux. Amazing environment for programming, $1,000+ cheaper than MBP, nice keyboards, better specs for the price, including several years of at-home next-day repair service.
- jacek 9y ago
  I agree that Thinkpad + Linux is a great combo (with wonderful keyboards!). However, repair service wasn't that good in my case. Response and shipping was super fast, but my laptop was at their repair center for 2 weeks waiting for a part (battery). I switched to Thinkpad with Linux from Macs 18 months ago. Adapting took maybe two months. I would not like to go back.
  - JoshMnem 9y ago
    Did you get the next-day, at-home repair services? I've used it before and they drove to my house the day after it broke, replaced the motherboard without any questions and got it working again. This laptop was about $1,900, including tax, shipping, and four years of that at-home support. Excellent specs: 24 Gb RAM, etc.
- jagger27 9y ago
  > better specs for the price If only the displays were 16:10 or 3:2 and as nice as a MacBook's. Otherwise, yeah, they're better.
  - leg100 9y ago
    I much prefer the display on my t470s to my macbook pro retina (albeit from 2012). Same "retina" resolution, but the matte display makes reading text a pleasure.
    - JoshMnem 9y ago
      Matte screens are ideal. I don't understand why so many computers have glossy screens. It might make stronger colors, but there is glare.
AJ007 9y ago
I have been using one for over two years. The first month I had enough problems I thought that the keyboard was definitely broken. Since then I’ve had minimal to no problems. Certain typing styles certainly could make the keyboard unusable.
mnm1 9y ago
I wonder if at some point we'll see lawsuits over these horrible keyboards from people with repetitive stress injuries. I sure hope so. This problem was foreseen and could have been avoided but Apple refused. Now it's turned into a multiplicity of problems. Personally I'm done with Apple's shitty products.
aquamo 9y ago
about 8 months into my experience with my 15" MBP 2016 I had the underbar-hyphen key stop working altogether. They replaced the key for me in the apple store without charging me. Glad I have apple care, I'm sure other keys will follow. Currently my right shift key is starting to get sticky feeling which was the precursor to the "-" key failing on me. I'm not impressed with the build quality considering the high cost of this machine $4000.
Chaebixi 9y ago
Don't worry everyone! Apple's going to fix this in the next version by replacing the keyboard with a touch screen!
- bitexploder 9y ago
  Don't give them ideas. Just... don't. The all new Electro Tactile Keyboard. It is the most amazing typing experience you have ever had on a keyboard. 3 years later everyone is wandering around with claws for hands, having forgotten what real keyboards do for human to computer interaction.
  - lallysingh 9y ago
    Ahem, this isn't a new idea for them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FingerWorks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FingerWorks
    - bitexploder 9y ago
      Of course. If I think of it some one else did 10 years ago ;)
elcapitan 9y ago
I have a 13" MBP with butterfly keys for my job (desk) which work perfectly fine, and a 12" 2017 MB with butterfly keys which jam all the time, because I use it in messier environments. I have to blow canned air through the keyboard every two days to unjam some of the keys.
neap24 9y ago
I had the most bizarre issue with my 2017 MacBook Pro keyboard: the left shift key stopped working intermittently. Thinking it was a piece of dust, I took off the key cover and tried to clean it out. Nothing worked. I finally made a Genius appointment for the day after High Sierra was released. I updated to High Sierra that morning and, suddenly, my shift key was in perfect working order again.
danpalmer 9y ago
I quite enjoy typing on the new keyboard (2017 MBP), and have not had any issues. My only minor criticism would be that the up and down arrows are a little tricky to hit quickly without looking, but it's really minor for me. Overall, in my experience, this was a solid upgrade on the previous keyboard (which I had to use a few days ago to prepare my old MBP to be sold).
- cjbillington 9y ago
  Yeah, these up and down arrows are a bit of a disappointment. I have a Dell XPS which has the same half-height keys for up and down. I hit the wrong one all the time. Guess I should enable system-wide vim or emacs bindings or something.
- mertd 9y ago
  As a mechanical keyboard fan, I'm quite impressed with how much tactile feedback the keys provide despite the short travel. I could live without the touchbar though.
ryanbertrand 9y ago
My keyboard is currently double adding ‘b’ when I click on the B key. Very annoying and leads to variable name bugs when I don’t catch it. I just received my MacBook Pro back from service 2 weeks ago (I had popping/cracking noises coming from the hinge / case when opening the computer or when heating up or down). I don’t remember this B issue happening before :(
gol706 9y ago
Well, I'm glad it's not just me. I had my top case replaced a month ago after my 'w' key started sticking down off and on. I could swear I felt one of the keys on my new case stick once, but it hasn't happend again. I usually don't buy Apple Care, but as I look at the 1 year mark approach, I'm thinking I may need to suck it up and buy it if the alternative is a $400-700 top case replacement ever few months on my dime until Apple decides to issue an extended warranty. Even if they do issue one, with my last laptop, I had to fight them to replace my main board a second time with the GPU failures because they tried to claim that since they repaired it once, it was impossible that the issue could happen a second time even though all of their diagnostic tests showed that it indeed had. On the plus side, ever time they replace the keyboard, you get a brand new battery and new USB-C connectors (which I'm also paranoid are going to have longevity issues).
- FireBeyond 9y ago
  > Even if they do issue one, with my last laptop, I had to fight them to replace my main board a second time with the GPU failures because they tried to claim that since they repaired it once, it was impossible that the issue could happen a second time even though all of their diagnostic tests showed that it indeed had. Been there, done that. Even to fix once. "Well, it fails that specific diagnostic and there's a bulletin about it, but we don't think that's the issue", even though I could repeatedly make it kernel panic due to a GPU fault merely by browsing a page in Safari (and the console spewed forth the same errors). I know people claim Apple has uniformly excellent service and I'd agree that for the most part, they do, but there's also polarizingly bad service, too.
r-s 9y ago
Have a 2017 MPB I got for work, I pretty much only run it in closed clamshell mode. If I need to actually be type something, I will pull out a $500 acer laptop from 5 years ago running linux because it is much nicer to type on. If I actually paid for the machine I would be pretty mad. The keyboard misses clicks and the lack of the escape key still bothers me.
pdq 9y ago
If you own a Macbook or Macbook Pro with the new slim keyboard, do yourself a favor and buy an Uppercase keyboard protector [1]. I got dust under mine last year, had to get the Apple repair under warranty, and then bought this $12.95 insurance. It's been working great ever since. If I pull the cover off, the keyboard looks brand new. The only negative is that it leaves key impressions on the screen when you close the laptop (due to the the cover touching the glass), but these are easily cleaned off with water/alcohol once every 2 weeks. [1] https://www.amazon.com/UPPERCASE-GhostCover-Keyboard-Protector-Function/dp/B01N20RZXB/ https://www.amazon.com/UPPERCASE-GhostCover-Keyboard-Protect...
- AlexandrB 9y ago
  I absolutely hate these. They make laptop keyboards feel even mushier than normal and have the aesthetics of plastic-on-living-room-furniture. The fact that this is now a good idea (a requirement even!) for a premium laptop is unacceptable. I love Apple, I really do. The magsafe connector sold me on my first Macbook in 2009 and I've been buying Apple laptops ever since. However when the new MacBook Pros were announced the first thing I did was buy a fully specced, refurbished "last gen" Macbook pro because the butterfly keyboard is a bridge too far for me in terms of typing feel. Apparently it's a bridge too far in reliability as well. This might be my last Macbook.
  - pdq 9y ago
    Disagree here. This protector is paper thin and doesn't change the key typing feel at all. Every keyboard I've ever owned gets dirt, grime, crumbs, etc under them, and this keeps it brand new without needing to clean the keyboard. Secondly, I liken this to getting a silicon case for your phone. You don't have to get one, but the second you drop your phone, you will be thankful you had it.
dsego 9y ago
Have the same problem recently with the W-key, it types twice sometimes, most noticeably, it will close two tabs instead of one. When I smack it, it fixes it for a while, I think. The f-key is also giving me trouble, it's shallower and sounds different, sometimes it will just fall out.
brandonmenc 9y ago
I love the new MBP keyboard. I have it connected to an external monitor most of the time, but I relish any chance I get to work away from the office - just for the opportunity to use the built-in keyboard.
- psychometry 9y ago
  I prefer the trackpad over a mouse and don't mind the keyboard. Thus, I've positioned my monitor directly over my laptop screen, stacking it on top of books if necessary.
jarym 9y ago
Apples obsession with thin is taking liberties and no matter what they say, I know a significant number of MBP users who are sticking with older laptops - just like the genius in the article.
- ibiza 9y ago
  The previous generation MacBook Pros are still sold new on the Apple Store. Scroll down a bit: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch
asdfasdfasd333 9y ago
So glad someone called this out. A single key on my MBP broke and Apple wanted $500 to "fix" it, even with AppleCare. Fuck that.
- baldfat 9y ago
  Wait you had paid for Apple Care and yet they wanted $500? Why is Apple so sacred with so many people?
  - shinratdr 9y ago
    Because this isn't the typical experience for most? I've had nothing but good things to say about Apple's repair policies. If it's in warranty, wander into an Apple Store, explain the issue, come back an hour or two later for your free fix or replacement. Done and done. I've also heard horror stories, but they're a pretty big company. I'm not surprised it's a mixed bag. I can say that there are almost no companies that have a store a couple blocks from me that I can walk into and get free same day repair service for some devices. The vast majority require me to mail my device into some unknown depot and be without it for a much longer period of time.
    - asdfasdfasd333 9y ago
      They consider the broken key to be "accidental damage" which puts the user at fault. Therefore, no warranty.
  - asdfasdfasd333 9y ago
    This is correct. Not the first time Apple Care has screwed people.
svckr 9y ago
> Though Apple employees receive significant yearly discounts on computers, and this was the first significant redesign of the MacBook Pro’s body in eight years, he had chosen not to buy one of the new ones, even a year later. (The author, referring to a Genius' 2015 MBP) Umm. I earn modestly good money developing software and my 2010 MBP is starting to show its age. How much does he think an Apple Store employee makes? How much DOES an Apple Genius in NYC make?
- cosmotron 9y ago
  According to glassdoor, an Apple Genius working in NYC makes approximately $23/hour [1]. [1] https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Apple-Mac-Genius-New-York-City-Hourly-Pay-EJI_IE1138.0,5_KO6,16_IL.17,30_IM615.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Apple-Mac-Genius-New-Yo...
- bsimpson 9y ago
  FYI, OP is a woman: https://twitter.com/caseyjohnston https://twitter.com/caseyjohnston
  - svckr 9y ago
    Thanks for pointing that out! Usually aiming for non-gendered language, but sometimes assumptions get the better of me!
bdcravens 9y ago
Am I the only one who would prefer the old style keys but keep the Touch ID?
api 9y ago
This is what happens when you hyper-optimize for a single dimension in a many-dimensional optimization problem. In this case it's "thin and light." MacBook Pros have been thin and light enough for nearly a decade. If I want tiny I have a smart phone that I can pull out of my pocket. I want a laptop to be a portable "real computer" with a lot of power, durability, and good ergonomics. Long battery life is also important. I'd be very happy with a thicker Pro with more CPU, more RAM, and a big battery. The latest Macs are such a disaster I'm currently thinking about how I can extricate myself from the platform and go back to either Windows or Linux. The OS is fine but the hardware has gone bozo. My latest Mac was a refurbished older model which I consider to be superior in many ways to the newer ones.
gingerb 9y ago
I am a developer spending 10+ hours a day on my old macbook pro (2015 model). It is without doubt the best pc I've ever had. And I am treating it with even more care now. I really don't want the new model as replacement, for more reasons. I don't expect Apple to recover from the loss of Steve Jobs, at least not in terms of quality. I see they are trying to remain a financial success. Which laptop will be an improvement compared to the one I have now? I don't want Windows, but a Linux distro would be great if the OS happened be as robust as OSX in all respects. I tried Arch, Ubuntu flavours, etc.. none of them compare in many ways. I actually never had a touchpad on any other laptop that behaved as smooth as the mbp one for example.
awalton 9y ago
There was literally nothing wrong with the MBP2013 keyboard. This endless pursuit of making anorexic electronics by Apple will only continue inventing faults like these - there's simply a limit to how thin these things can go and maintain durability, and that's what we're seeing here. Jobs never would have let this nonsense happen. He'd have pressed the key and thrown the machine at whomever invented this "butterfly" switch.
xBytez 9y ago
Regardless of the issues with the keyboard, I've given it a try and I just really can't enjoy typing on it, especially coming from a keyboard with tactile switches.
Philosopher 9y ago
This is coming from the company that used to do design and function so well. Now they just have form. Their obsession for thinness is stupid at this point.
lokerfoi 9y ago
Just read it and after about 4 months my B needs extra presses to work. Jinxed myself.
krishicks 9y ago
I have a 2015 MacBook and also use a HHKB Pro 2 Type S; both wildly different keyboards. I think the MacBook keyboard is wonderful, though I prefer my HHKB. It requires a different method of hitting the keys, but I have no problem going between the two, or to any of the other keyboards I use. I recall when Apple first came out with the thin aluminum keyboards that it took me some time to adjust from what I was using at the time, a Microsoft Ergo something or other with huge key travel and vague key actuation feel. If you get pain while using any keyboard you should look into how you're using it, and why you're getting that pain.

290 points by nicksergeant 9y ago

MentallyRetired 9y ago

What, you don't like hunting-and-pecking your function row?

valleyer 9y ago
That's not at all what the article is about.

CptJamesCook 9y ago

I despise my new Macbook's touchbar. I can't get to the volume button without stopping what I'm doing for 4-5 seconds to find the key, then press multiple buttons, I can't use the function keys, and it generally adds no value.

btown 9y ago
Just use the buttons on your wired headphones which are equally compatible with your iPhone and Mac... oh, wait.
- Ninn 9y ago
  Great shitpost, too bad none wired headphones like the crowd favourites qc35 and others have volume keys too. Its sad to think that you cannot get out of your bubble and realise that this is not objectively a bad design choice, but some of us actually enjoy and applaude it.

nrclark 9y ago

My work gave me one of the 2016 15" MBPs as my main computer, and the keyboard is horrible. My V key double-presses about half the time, and the rest of the keys are really hard to press down all the way. Some of the keys make a weird metal rattle when I press them. Typing on that wretched keyboard for more than an hour or so literally bruises my fingers. Since I do most of my day-to-day work at a dock with an external keyboard, I'm debating whether it's bad enough that I need to fight with IT and be the one special snowflake with a PC instead. But it's bad enough that I'm seriously considering it. The more I write about this keyboard, the angrier I get. >:( And also seriously, fuck the touchbar. Who the hell decided that programmers don't need a functional ESC key or permanent function keys? And who the hell decided that I should have to fumble around and mash my already-bruised finger against a tiny glass icon to change my volume level? Just so Skype can show buttons that mimic the buttons already on the screen? The user experience of the touchbar is objectively worse and adds no value. Most apps don't even use it, and the ones that do don't use it for anything interesting. And before long I'm sure it'll be playing advertisements at me.

vittore 9y ago
I think cursor is the worst. why not cut off shift and do up and down proper keys.
- cstejerean 9y ago
  The up/down keys are the only issue I have with the new keyboard. I routinely manage to hit it wrong and the cursor doesn’t move. The rest of it I actually like, including the touchbar.
  - FabHK 9y ago
    Cursor keys were quite a switch from the trusty old MBA. The layout is a bit different (left/right are full size keys instead of half height) and the keys are so flush with the enclosure that it was just much harder to find them "blind". Though, having had the MBP now for nearly a year, it's not an issue anymore.
dillondoyle 9y ago
My biggest beaf with the TouchBar: volume takes two clicks! Instead of an up down and mute button, I get mute and volume which then opens a slider to the left of the click. So instead of just clicking once to lower volume I have to click, move my finger and slide. It would be so easy to allow custom button to add back on (and maybe there is that I haven't been able to find?) I also accidentally 'touch my pinky finger when typing my password (numbers) and it registers as touch even though I'm not applying downward force. In Chrome thank god I could remove the refresh button, would accidentally refresh login pages all the time.
- Gaelan 9y ago
  You can just put your finger on the slider key and slide. No need for tap, let go, slide. It's pretty natural.
  - kn0where 9y ago

binaryanomaly 9y ago

I‘m struggling as well since i have migrated from my 2015 macbook pro. The new keyboards are not well suited for writing more than a few occassional sentences. I make more typing mistakes and am slower than before. Worst keyboard since my whole life. Apple needs to improve this.

Gaelan 9y ago

I actually really like my 2017 MBP's keyboard. There isn't much key travel, but the keys do have a very satisfying "click." I prefer it over older apple keyboards. Keys do have issues weekly or so, but that's resolved by hitting the key a bunch; it's an inconvenience, but certainly not a dealbreaker.

reustle 9y ago
> Keys do have issues weekly or so, but that's resolved by hitting the key a bunch I've been considering moving to a 12 MacBook but hearing stuff like this scares me
- saurik 9y ago
  Yeah. I'm just shocked by how much people are willing to just deal with as if it is normal or something. I have a friend who recently told me they are surprised as how much I hate my 12" MacBook as they are loving theirs... and then a little later they tell me that the O key on their keyboard doesn't work half the time and just... I just don't even... wtf. I swear all the people who love these new computers must just have extremely low standards or something: you shouldn't have to mess around with your computer every week to fix some stupid keyboard issue that wouldn't exist if the laptop was a mere millimeter thicker.
  - jjrrmm 9y ago
    I have two Macbooks from 2015 and none hat any key issues whatsoever.
- http-teapot 9y ago
  I have two 12 MacBook at home. I've replaced the keyboard twice on one and zero times on the other. Each time some keys got stuck in pressed position which meant we had to press harder. My other had similar issues except the keys popped back up somehow. That occasional glorious press on "Return" key may lock it... and it feels terrible.
  - 9y ago

jankotek 9y ago

I have Dell XPS 13. When keyboard broke (probably my fault), technician come to my house next day and replaced it in front of me. For free, as part of basic warranty. I was on holiday in other country...

jmkni 9y ago
Likewise when my screen broke, their technician rolls into my office the following day with a new one, no questions asked
slantyyz 9y ago
In the pre-retina days, Mac laptops were quite easy to service yourself. I had a plastic Macbook that I spilled soda pop onto. The keyboard basically got fried. I ordered a replacement part from OWC and was able to fix it myself quite quickly. The only downside was having to carry an external keyboard in my bag while waiting for the part to arrive since it was my work computer.
bitexploder 9y ago
Dell doesn't produce the most beautiful laptops, but at least every component isn't soldered to your "logic board". It comes at a cost of larger and heavier laptops, but the XPS 13 Developer Edition I write this on is small, runs Linux, and has a beautiful display and a real keyboard I don't absolutely hate. Even Linus likes it. I am slowly turning back towards Dell for almost all my main computing accessories (laptop/monitor).
StavrosK 9y ago
I love my XPS 15 otherwise, but it has the same problem: A double-pressing spacebar all the damn time, and capslock+<key> (I remapped caps to ctrl) leaves <key> software-stuck until I press any other key. So far, no updates. I could send it to Dell to have the keyboard replace, but that's going to leave me without a laptop for days, and will do exactly nothing, since this is a software problem.

pudo 9y ago

This, so much. Plus, call me clumsy, but the number of times I have accidentally triggered one of the magic bar buttons is beyond count. In everyday use, it often feels like my computer just randomly mutes system audio or locks the display (I had to get rid of the Siri button, it's incredibly annoying). All of that besides the fact that you cannot really use VIM any more because the ESC button is gone...

Gaelan 9y ago
As a vim user, I don't find the software escape to be bad—it's always in the same spot, even if it's not a physical key. Also, in vim, you can use ctrl-[ instead of escape (which is arguably better anyway).
- kagamine 9y ago
  Ctrl + [ won't work on any non-English keyboard as the square parenthesis are hidden behind a modifier already. This is a constant problem with software, and now hardware, manufacturers that they assume everyone in the whole wide world is using a US keyboard. Yes, you can remap and fiddle to make it work but that isn't the point, the point is to pay the same price, sometimes more than Americans and get the same value and experience. Instead we get an inferior experience that requires hacks. Not good at all.
  - tasuki 9y ago
    Interesting that you use your native keyboard for programming. I'm Czech, all the Czech programmers I know use English layout for programming.
    - kagamine 9y ago
      Here in Norway I have never once seen a non-Scandinavian layout keyboard. Not once. As I'm from the UK I have considered getting a UK or US keyboard for coding at home, but at work it isn't an option, mostly because we all have standard equipment and because ø,æ & å.

nfoz 9y ago

We had a candidate come in for interviews, and one of them was a video-conference programming session with a remote interviewer. We set them up with a Macbook (running Windows/Bootcamp) for live-coding. The candidate hit the Power button, located where DEL used to be. Laptop goes to sleep (candidate said it shut down but it probably just went to sleep). He gets it back up but then it needs a login etc., so he had to go find us non-remote staff to log back in, join VPN etc. Took about 5 minutes out of the interview, partly due to confusion + logging back into the things. I can't for the life of me understand why so many vendors have put this button on the keyboard. It was so simple and sensible to have it somewhere else. Edited: Macbook running Windows, probably just went to sleep but disruptive nonetheless, combination of hardware+software to blame.

isatty 9y ago
Nothing about this makes much sense - regardless of which generation macbook you're using hitting the power button accidentally will not turn it off (you can try it right now). Did your interviewee keep pressing on it for like 10 seconds?
- nfoz 9y ago
  Hmm, it might be because we run Windows on the macbooks, but you're right -- maybe it didn't fully shut down. Even sleep is pretty disruptive; it takes my machine ~30s of playing-dead before it pops back, and I'm booted from the VPN and all my connections. I run into this accidental-coffee-break every now and then. We bought a USB keyboard + mouse for the candidates.
  - threeseed 9y ago
    Do you realise how ridiculous you sound ? You're blaming a Mac for Windows OS behaviour. On Mac OS pressing the power button does nothing, it takes seconds to come back from sleep and it never drops VPN unless you are going to sleep for hours.
    - aluhut 9y ago

suresk 9y ago

The new MBPs are such a mixed bag for me.. I got one at work, while I still use a 2012 MBP, and I go back and forth on some things.... 1) New keyboard took a while to get used to, and it does seem like they are a little finicky. After a while, I've gotten used to the feel of it and actually prefer it for the most part. The arrow keys are really hard to use, though.. I do hate that it is such an expensive/involved thing to replace the keyboard. 2) The enlarged trackpad is kinda nice sometimes, but really hard to use other times.. The way I rest my hands on my laptop when I'm using it while sitting back or lying down always results in mis-clicks and other problems with the new trackpad. I'd rather have the smaller-sized one, but I realize others may not have the same problems I do. 3) TouchID is really handy, but the TouchBar is an unfortunate gimmick. I keep trying to find good uses for it, but it mostly ends up being kinda useless - anything I can do with it, I could do before with less work. I hope it goes away, or at least becomes an optional thing in the future. Overall, while it is nice to have a laptop that is smaller/lighter, the way Apple is sacrificing all sorts of other stuff (performance, repairability) to minimize size/weight sometimes feels wrong for what it supposed to be a professional series laptop.

threeseed 9y ago
Use BetterTouchTool for the Touch Bar. It allows you to customise it for each application and assign your own buttons based on menu items, scripts etc. For development it is amazing. I have dedicated buttons for Build, Run, Debug, Stop, Step Into and Step Over. For terminal I can adjust terminal profiles with one button. Also blame Intel more than Apple for performance issues.
- crispinb 9y ago
  > For development it is amazing. I have dedicated buttons for Build, Run, Debug, Stop, Step Into and Step Over I have these in IntelliJ as standard key combos (some being Fn keys). All of these I can touch type. I can't see how this would be improved by having to look down at the mini-screen at the top of the keyboard.
  - threeseed 9y ago

kn0where 9y ago

The best kind of controversial Apple design is one that people grumble about because it's ahead of its time, but which ultimately replaces one way of doing things with another that's better for most use cases. See: ditching floppies and adopting USB on the first iMac. The worst kind of controversial Apple design is one that people grumble about because it's aesthetically pleasing but actually makes the product less user-friendly. See: the hockey-puck mouse on the first iMac. Regarding that second kind, sometimes Apple recognizes their mistake and, in a future iteration, completely replaces the bad design with a better one. More recently, they seem too infatuated with their initial design decisions and just keep putting band-aids on fundamentally flawed implementations. The butterfly keyboard mentioned in TFA is on its third(!) revision, and it's still clearly flawed. Another example: Apple "fixed" the impossible-to-tell-in-the-dark-which-way-you're holding-it Apple TV remote by putting a single tactile ring around one button, rather than just designing an ergonomic remote that makes it tougher for you to accidentally engage the touchpad and cancel out of the movie you're watching. So why might Apple underestimate the severity of bad design decisions? Apple's direction with the Mac lineup as of late is a great example of "success hides problems." [1] Supposedly, the 2016 MacBook Pros sold very well, despite a number of bad design choices that put form over function: - The keyboard design as described in TFA - The touch bar (only available on the high end models). The designer must have really hated those useless, ugly fkeys. But instead of putting the touch bar above the fkeys, they eliminated them. The touch bar is not a substitute, unless all you used the fkeys for was changing volume, etc. - Eliminated all other ports in favor of USB-C, which while great in theory is in fact a highly fragmented incompatible ecosystem of poor quality peripherals and cables that don't give the user any visual indicator as to whether they work together. [2] IMHO, many if not most of these MacBook Pro customers are buying not because of these bad design decisions but in spite of them. Computers are amazing because they're fun and powerful general purpose machines. These machines may meet some subset of people's needs better than the old ones did. But in exchange for that, they've stopped (or soon will stop) meeting the needs of many, many more. Somebody once said "design is how it works." If you live in a sterile white world where there's no dust and you never plug anything into your laptop, maybe this product works for you. The rest of us don't have that luxury. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=success+hides+problems https://www.google.com/search?q=success+hides+problems [2] https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c

saurik 9y ago

Based on the title I assumed that this person was going to be complaining about joint damage due to the low key travel. This keyboard on my 12" MacBook is so bad that between having to get the top case replaced to fix broken keys (when as stated in the article, careful blowing didn't work and trying to replace the keys caused them to break) and my fingers feeing like they have aged many years from the poor ergonomics of no key travel (something I am extremely pissed about) I have mostly just stopped using a laptop: even when using this computer it is now docked at my home with an external monitor and a real keyboard. You have to understand that I am someone who hates desktop computers and has been using the 11" MacBook Air since the moment it came out as a replacement to an HP Mini... I love small computers, but this one is trash. I have it on my todo list to move back to my now-repaired 11" Air, but the thought of having to do that much data movement is demoralizing, particularly as I have grown accustomed to the high-resolution screen. I am not sure what to do as I just can't understand how Apple thinks these keyboards are reasonable... it just seems so obvious that this is dumb.

micaksica 9y ago
Your story resonated with me because I had the same experiences with a 12” MacBook. While I can’t really use you as an example, since you kind of need a Mac for a lot of the work you do specifically, I’ve heard the same complaints about Apple hardware from other long-time Mac users that don’t actually need to have a Mac. I am curious how many of those of us that don’t need macOS day to day have voted with their wallet away from Apple’s pro line, and what they switched to. I still use a mid-2014 MacBook Pro at work, but at home when it was time to upgrade I took the same path you did and went for the 12” MacBook. It sucked in every way. Now I’m the owner of a Dell XPS, the supposed most Mac-like PC, and I’m simply stuck with another set of problems: it’s developed a great amount of coil whine, thermal management is spotty to say the least, and the sound card drivers have to be reinstalled every few reboots else it will not detect when I have plugged or unplugged headphones, which has me carrying around a USB DAC. When I need macOS, I’m still running High Sierra on a quad-core Mac Mini server from 2011. The sad thing is that I don’t think there is a good option at this point. All of the “alternatives” to the MacBook contain their own faults.
- 9y ago

localcdn 9y ago

It's rare seeing an ad get through ublock and hosts filters.

dabockster 9y ago
This site probably has its own ad system. The way to go imo.
chrisper 9y ago
Yes, but I didn't find that ad "out of place" or annoying. So I do not mind!
- wingworks 9y ago
  I had the same feeling, I don't mind ads if they are done well.
aembleton 9y ago
The outer div from the advert has a data-dfp-pixel attribute with a value of a doubleclick URL. I'm not sure what that is about, but I guess it is for tracking. The images themselves are coming from the imgix CDN for outline-brand so they do seem to be providing their own adverts, but maybe using doubleclick for some sort of engagement tracking. I'm not really sure.

ricw 9y ago

I like the feel of the new keyboard, though I have two issues with it: 1. sometimes buttons do lock up. i'm unsure whether this is the same issue as in the article, but by pressing them harder they typically start working again. 2. the keyboard is much louder than the one on my prior MacBook pro. I feel very self-conscious whenever i type anywhere public. Maybe this is just me being self-conscious..

saurik 9y ago
I have also noticed that the new keyboard is much louder, which would be tolerable if it were higher quality, but it isn't: it is simply inferior technology.

j7ake 9y ago

Once bash on windows gets sufficiently close to my needs and I am able to swap alt with ctrl, I will little resistance for going from OS X to windows.

rjeli 9y ago
linux as daily driver is honestly good, from the bottom of my heart (I recommend xfce)
- j7ake 9y ago
  Also if any Linux laptop can give me 8 plus hours of productive battery life I am also switching. I had problems with an old one where closing laptop lid drained all the battery so I constantly had to worry about the on state of my laptop
  - mickael-kerjean 9y ago
    It's already here. I got between 13h (normal workload) to 25h (no internet and Emacs only) on the Lenovo x270 with arch and i3wm
    - j7ake 9y ago
      Great thanks good to know. Do you have any issues with sleep or closing lid draining battery ?
      - bitexploder 9y ago
        Ehh, anecdotal, I know, but a couple of our new MBPs we have bought kernel panic and never wake up from sleep either. I have a Dell XPS 13 and it wakes and sleeps. I recommend cruising the Arch Linux Wiki for your specific laptop you have in mind. It is rare for it to not have some sort of issue you need to iron out around sleep.
      - mickael-kerjean 9y ago

desireco42 9y ago

Complete opposite is new Surface Book or however it is called. Keyboard travels just fine, it has touch screen, long life... I am writing this on Mac, I have several more, but since passing of Steve Jobs, things are just not right. Anyhow, looking at new Microsoft machine, with great graphics card and every feature I would want (sd card, thank you!), couldn't help but think about how things have changed. Oh and biggie, it has Esc key! Can you imagine that :)

desireco42 9y ago
Ha ha ha, truth hurts so much :) How Apple dares not be cool :) I am in the same boat, I am just not as messed up as you downvoters.

rothbardrand 9y ago

I have the 2016 MBP, and have been using it extensively in third world conditions this year. The keyboard has been so good that I didn't even notice it. What I do notice is having to limit myself to the 15 inch display vs the two 40" 4k displays I have at home. The machine supports four, and I would buy a third 4k display (This time UHD) if I could figure out a desk arrangement that supports all three and still keep the MBP in easy reach. I love my MBP. The flash storage was a little more expensive than I wanted, and I'm going to wait an extra year to upgrade. Anyway. this isn't a product story- the keyboard is fine. This is a service story-- Apple should have fixed his right the first time. PS- Touch Bar is great.

indemnity 9y ago
Yep, I have the 2013 15” rMBP and the 2016 15” rMBP. Much prefer the keyboard on the 2016 model. Just two gripes: - keyboard is noisy as hell, very noticeable in conference calls - trackpad is way too big, it’s hard to find a resting position. six months in i still accidentally touch it when not meaning to.
- wingworks 9y ago
  Yeah, I like the touchbar, but yeah was a little disappointed in how loud the keyboard and even the trackpad, coming from a 2015 MBP.
forgottenpass 9y ago
I'm not sure what to make of your post. Are you trying to argue that your personal lack of experiencing a component failure means the component's fleet-wide failure rate is acceptable? Or are you just saying you like your computer, and tossed in a flippant assumption that you don't really stand behind?

tomcam 9y ago

I too have found this keyboard it to be a disaster. I made the mistake of buying two MacBooks as soon as the first 12" model was released, one for me and one for my wife, and my wife's keyboard had so many problems we took it in to Apple. All they could do was offered to swap out the keyboard for a mere $400. My wife refused, and the problem mysteriously solved itself. Meanwhile, mine "works", but the short key travel makes touch typing next to impossible even after two years of use. I have just purchased an inexpensive windows computer from a Lenovo and I'm trying to get accustomed to Windows 10 so I have a workable keyboard. This is a big deal because I am deep into Apples ecosystem and lock-in. I do not want to switch but I type all day and I can't bear to buy another Macintosh because the keywords have all gone this way. I am however considering purchasing a new old stock MacBook Air.

stevenwoo 9y ago
Where's a good place to find new old stock MacBooks?
- nadavami 9y ago
  I've always had good results with Apple's refurbished devices.
FabHK 9y ago
FWIW, I've had intermittent problems with one or the other key on the MBP keyboard, but as you said, after a while they went away. Maybe I ground down that damn speck of dust.

jamesrcole 9y ago

It sounds like there's real, serious problems with it, but nothing in the article comes close to justifying the hyperbolic title.

Camillo 9y ago

I just realized that they don't even sell the old form factor any more. They kept it around for a while, but now it's gone. Where can I get an old-style MBP?

executesorder66 9y ago

> “Hold on,” I said. “If a single piece of dust lays the whole computer out, don't you think that's kind of a problem?” > ... > The Genius shrugged empathetically. He cast around and pointed to a nearby pre-2015 MacBook Pro with relatively thicker keys. "I have one of those," he said apologetically. Wow. That's got to be the worst tech-support I have ever heard of.

heartbreak 9y ago
What do you expect him to say? He's not an Apple engineer. He didn't design the keyboard. He's a blue-shirt working customer service at an Apple store.
- executesorder66 9y ago
  I expect him to say something along the lines of, "I don't know, let me see what I can find out and I'll get back to you." Imagine your lawn mower broke, and took it to a repair shop. You complain it doesn't switch on. The repair guy says maybe there is a piece of grass that got inside, and that's why it's not working. You say that sounds like a really bad design if a lawn mower can't handle a piece of grass. He says, "Oh, well I use some other model." How is that even remotely helpful?

kalleboo 9y ago

I had keys go bad twice on my 2017 MBP, but both times I've managed to "massage" them back to life by pressing down hard and wiggling the keys around. My previous laptop, the original 2012 MBP Retina, lasted 5 years. I have my doubts this one is built as robustly... That said I actually enjoy typing on this keyboard. The short travel and sharp, stable clickiness has lowered my typing error rate and makes it feel like I'm typing faster. I was never a good typist though.

skocznymroczny 9y ago

I love the keyboard on new MacBooks. I'd like to have a keyboard like that for my desktop PC actually. I like how low travel it is, allowing me to type super fast with minimal effort, also it is nice to touch and makes nice sounds when typing.

efficax 9y ago
I also love the 12" MB keyboards. And the new MBP keyboards are even better. I treat my 2016 12" MB like shit, throw it in my bag without a case, eat in its general area, and I've never had an issue with dust messing up the kb. But I believe that there's a design flaw here that apple should fix. But the keyboards are great from every other angle.

manigandham 9y ago

Side note: the Apple store is the worst retail experience I've had, every single time. The entire process seems to be designed for clueless geriatric retirees who have plenty of time and no understanding of technology to be slowly accosted and removed of their money by the exact opposite of a genius.

akeck 9y ago
Other than saying 'Hi', I generally don't interact with anyone in the Apple Store these days. I get what I need, scan the bar codes of the items I'm buying in the Apple Store app, and then walk out.
- manigandham 9y ago
  Sure, but all of their actual hardware is not available that way. If you're just buying accessories, then you probably could've just bought them online anyway. Downloading an app to go shopping at the store isn't appealing.

eknkc 9y ago

I have a 15” 2016 model and I’m close to throwing it out of my office window. My b and n keys acted up randomly. B would hit twice on each press and n would miss keystrokes sometimes. Cleaned it with air, massaged the keys, removed caps and cleaned etc. Other keys started following. Apple here in Turkey does not have the same support you guys in US seem to enjoy. They gave me a 15 day repair window, no offer of replacements etc. I simply can’t live without it for 15 days so I’m still using this piece of shit broken laptop. I’d buy a replacement and send this one to repair only to sell it but then I’d still need to buy a MBP because of macOS. One of these days I’m gonna pull thr plug and go all linux.

zelos 9y ago

Even Gruber is worried: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macboo...

KayL 9y ago

I replaced my broken MBP 2013 to 2017. The keyboard is really horrible!! The 2013 KB was wonderful and I can't find any other laptop with same great KB. With the new MBP, after one month of purchase, the display is down. I went to Apple Store, and they told me 3 days for repair but I never get any email/tel contacts after a week and their online status remained "repairing". Until I call them back, they told me they contacted and I didn't pick up their phone. Now after 2 months, I found a video quality issue on their FaceTime camera (with sunlight, same issue): https://imgur.com/a/AQTOw https://imgur.com/a/AQTOw Has anyone with the same experience?

pimeys 9y ago

This autumn I finally needed to buy a new laptop and spent some time testing and figuring out which keyboard I like the most. The funny thing was that the only seriously decent laptop keyboard is in a model that has a limited release and will probably sell out in the coming weeks: The ThinkPad 25th anniversary edition. How can it be that to get a seriously good keyboard for programming, I need to get a novelty laptop and get it fast until it sells out. If you have a chance to test it somewhere and can take a hit with a FHD panel, this is definitely a fast and robust laptop.

bitexploder 9y ago
I think FHD is a feature. Even on a 15" laptop it is around 140ppi, thats... a lot. And FHD saves on battery life significantly on anything not Apple. I specifically ordered a Precision 7520 this week with an anti-glare FHD with no mic or webcam because 140+ PPI is a good balance for me and it extends battery life significantly. 96 ppi is the old standard. 140ppi generally gives a very nice and crisp screen. The 220 or so on most MBP retina is nice, but probably overkill starting around 180ppi in my estimation.
- pimeys 9y ago
  It's definitely ok! I just had a ThinkPad X1 Carbon to test from work and I kind of liked the WQHD resolution with the crisp colors. At least for 15" screen and keeping one Emacs and one terminal side by side was a nice way to work and I could easily read the text. Not complaining though, everything else in this T25 is so much better.
- mikejmoffitt 9y ago
  Agreed, and I'm happy that I'm not the only person with this view on display density. I can deal with HiDPI displays if it allows me to to a 1:2 integer scale without losing too much real estate, but any scaling between there loses small pixel details. As someone who appreciates sharp bitmap fonts and pixel graphics, the retina MBP is a big irritation.
mikejmoffitt 9y ago
I just received my T25. They are already unavailable in the US. I will soon be making a comparison video between the T25, my X62, and the old X300. I will say that the panel itself is a good panel, 1080p aside. It is like the one in the T450s - good white point, linear constant-current backlight driver (no flickery low-freq PWM!)

antoinevg 9y ago

When I got my first MacBookPro in 2009 I was sold instantly. Not because of the specs, I had given up a Dell costing a quarter of the price with higher resolution display, more memory, a nicer keyboard and faster CPU. I was sold because, unlike any of the other Windows & Linux computers I owned at the time, it did not make me angry when I used it. I miss _that_ MacBookPro.

singularity2001 9y ago

if you are a halfways professional and care about your fingers never type on any laptop keyboard unless you absolutely have to.

mrmondo 9y ago

I might sound like the black sheep here - but I really enjoy typing on the new MacBook keyboard, even when switching from my DAS ultimate on my desktop and back - I truly enjoy it and make far less mistakes while typing faster. What I do think is completely useless is he touchbar, nice idea but no real use.

madmax108 9y ago

It constantly amazes me how a product which is so widely criticized by the dev community, ends up selling so well. Really shows how Apple dropped the ball from making a system which became the de-facto developer laptop (whether I like that it did or not is a different question), right upto this clunky mess which is a far cry from their earlier versions I still maintain that the 2012 rMBP, which were the last Macbooks that came out under Jobs IIRC, were the most stable developer-focussed iteration of the MBP. No heating issues, a sexy screen, stable non-glitchy non-hanging OS, and a wonderful experience overall!

heisenbit 9y ago
Are thy selling well? Apple's market share is not growing. I got a 2012 MBP and the money to buy a new one. What I see is not convincing me I get value for money. Apple used to know that basics matter but recently they are innovating on the margin. That only gets you so far onto the ice...

JoshMnem 9y ago

Try ThinkPad + Linux. Amazing environment for programming, $1,000+ cheaper than MBP, nice keyboards, better specs for the price, including several years of at-home next-day repair service.

jacek 9y ago
I agree that Thinkpad + Linux is a great combo (with wonderful keyboards!). However, repair service wasn't that good in my case. Response and shipping was super fast, but my laptop was at their repair center for 2 weeks waiting for a part (battery). I switched to Thinkpad with Linux from Macs 18 months ago. Adapting took maybe two months. I would not like to go back.
- JoshMnem 9y ago
  Did you get the next-day, at-home repair services? I've used it before and they drove to my house the day after it broke, replaced the motherboard without any questions and got it working again. This laptop was about $1,900, including tax, shipping, and four years of that at-home support. Excellent specs: 24 Gb RAM, etc.
jagger27 9y ago
> better specs for the price If only the displays were 16:10 or 3:2 and as nice as a MacBook's. Otherwise, yeah, they're better.
- leg100 9y ago
  I much prefer the display on my t470s to my macbook pro retina (albeit from 2012). Same "retina" resolution, but the matte display makes reading text a pleasure.
  - JoshMnem 9y ago
    Matte screens are ideal. I don't understand why so many computers have glossy screens. It might make stronger colors, but there is glare.

AJ007 9y ago

I have been using one for over two years. The first month I had enough problems I thought that the keyboard was definitely broken. Since then I’ve had minimal to no problems. Certain typing styles certainly could make the keyboard unusable.

mnm1 9y ago

I wonder if at some point we'll see lawsuits over these horrible keyboards from people with repetitive stress injuries. I sure hope so. This problem was foreseen and could have been avoided but Apple refused. Now it's turned into a multiplicity of problems. Personally I'm done with Apple's shitty products.

aquamo 9y ago

about 8 months into my experience with my 15" MBP 2016 I had the underbar-hyphen key stop working altogether. They replaced the key for me in the apple store without charging me. Glad I have apple care, I'm sure other keys will follow. Currently my right shift key is starting to get sticky feeling which was the precursor to the "-" key failing on me. I'm not impressed with the build quality considering the high cost of this machine $4000.

Chaebixi 9y ago

Don't worry everyone! Apple's going to fix this in the next version by replacing the keyboard with a touch screen!

bitexploder 9y ago
Don't give them ideas. Just... don't. The all new Electro Tactile Keyboard. It is the most amazing typing experience you have ever had on a keyboard. 3 years later everyone is wandering around with claws for hands, having forgotten what real keyboards do for human to computer interaction.
- lallysingh 9y ago
  Ahem, this isn't a new idea for them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FingerWorks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FingerWorks
  - bitexploder 9y ago
    Of course. If I think of it some one else did 10 years ago ;)

elcapitan 9y ago

I have a 13" MBP with butterfly keys for my job (desk) which work perfectly fine, and a 12" 2017 MB with butterfly keys which jam all the time, because I use it in messier environments. I have to blow canned air through the keyboard every two days to unjam some of the keys.

neap24 9y ago

I had the most bizarre issue with my 2017 MacBook Pro keyboard: the left shift key stopped working intermittently. Thinking it was a piece of dust, I took off the key cover and tried to clean it out. Nothing worked. I finally made a Genius appointment for the day after High Sierra was released. I updated to High Sierra that morning and, suddenly, my shift key was in perfect working order again.

danpalmer 9y ago

I quite enjoy typing on the new keyboard (2017 MBP), and have not had any issues. My only minor criticism would be that the up and down arrows are a little tricky to hit quickly without looking, but it's really minor for me. Overall, in my experience, this was a solid upgrade on the previous keyboard (which I had to use a few days ago to prepare my old MBP to be sold).

cjbillington 9y ago
Yeah, these up and down arrows are a bit of a disappointment. I have a Dell XPS which has the same half-height keys for up and down. I hit the wrong one all the time. Guess I should enable system-wide vim or emacs bindings or something.
mertd 9y ago
As a mechanical keyboard fan, I'm quite impressed with how much tactile feedback the keys provide despite the short travel. I could live without the touchbar though.

ryanbertrand 9y ago

My keyboard is currently double adding ‘b’ when I click on the B key. Very annoying and leads to variable name bugs when I don’t catch it. I just received my MacBook Pro back from service 2 weeks ago (I had popping/cracking noises coming from the hinge / case when opening the computer or when heating up or down). I don’t remember this B issue happening before :(

gol706 9y ago

Well, I'm glad it's not just me. I had my top case replaced a month ago after my 'w' key started sticking down off and on. I could swear I felt one of the keys on my new case stick once, but it hasn't happend again. I usually don't buy Apple Care, but as I look at the 1 year mark approach, I'm thinking I may need to suck it up and buy it if the alternative is a $400-700 top case replacement ever few months on my dime until Apple decides to issue an extended warranty. Even if they do issue one, with my last laptop, I had to fight them to replace my main board a second time with the GPU failures because they tried to claim that since they repaired it once, it was impossible that the issue could happen a second time even though all of their diagnostic tests showed that it indeed had. On the plus side, ever time they replace the keyboard, you get a brand new battery and new USB-C connectors (which I'm also paranoid are going to have longevity issues).

FireBeyond 9y ago
> Even if they do issue one, with my last laptop, I had to fight them to replace my main board a second time with the GPU failures because they tried to claim that since they repaired it once, it was impossible that the issue could happen a second time even though all of their diagnostic tests showed that it indeed had. Been there, done that. Even to fix once. "Well, it fails that specific diagnostic and there's a bulletin about it, but we don't think that's the issue", even though I could repeatedly make it kernel panic due to a GPU fault merely by browsing a page in Safari (and the console spewed forth the same errors). I know people claim Apple has uniformly excellent service and I'd agree that for the most part, they do, but there's also polarizingly bad service, too.

r-s 9y ago

Have a 2017 MPB I got for work, I pretty much only run it in closed clamshell mode. If I need to actually be type something, I will pull out a $500 acer laptop from 5 years ago running linux because it is much nicer to type on. If I actually paid for the machine I would be pretty mad. The keyboard misses clicks and the lack of the escape key still bothers me.

pdq 9y ago

If you own a Macbook or Macbook Pro with the new slim keyboard, do yourself a favor and buy an Uppercase keyboard protector [1]. I got dust under mine last year, had to get the Apple repair under warranty, and then bought this $12.95 insurance. It's been working great ever since. If I pull the cover off, the keyboard looks brand new. The only negative is that it leaves key impressions on the screen when you close the laptop (due to the the cover touching the glass), but these are easily cleaned off with water/alcohol once every 2 weeks. [1] https://www.amazon.com/UPPERCASE-GhostCover-Keyboard-Protector-Function/dp/B01N20RZXB/ https://www.amazon.com/UPPERCASE-GhostCover-Keyboard-Protect...

AlexandrB 9y ago
I absolutely hate these. They make laptop keyboards feel even mushier than normal and have the aesthetics of plastic-on-living-room-furniture. The fact that this is now a good idea (a requirement even!) for a premium laptop is unacceptable. I love Apple, I really do. The magsafe connector sold me on my first Macbook in 2009 and I've been buying Apple laptops ever since. However when the new MacBook Pros were announced the first thing I did was buy a fully specced, refurbished "last gen" Macbook pro because the butterfly keyboard is a bridge too far for me in terms of typing feel. Apparently it's a bridge too far in reliability as well. This might be my last Macbook.
- pdq 9y ago
  Disagree here. This protector is paper thin and doesn't change the key typing feel at all. Every keyboard I've ever owned gets dirt, grime, crumbs, etc under them, and this keeps it brand new without needing to clean the keyboard. Secondly, I liken this to getting a silicon case for your phone. You don't have to get one, but the second you drop your phone, you will be thankful you had it.

dsego 9y ago

Have the same problem recently with the W-key, it types twice sometimes, most noticeably, it will close two tabs instead of one. When I smack it, it fixes it for a while, I think. The f-key is also giving me trouble, it's shallower and sounds different, sometimes it will just fall out.

brandonmenc 9y ago

I love the new MBP keyboard. I have it connected to an external monitor most of the time, but I relish any chance I get to work away from the office - just for the opportunity to use the built-in keyboard.

psychometry 9y ago
I prefer the trackpad over a mouse and don't mind the keyboard. Thus, I've positioned my monitor directly over my laptop screen, stacking it on top of books if necessary.

jarym 9y ago

Apples obsession with thin is taking liberties and no matter what they say, I know a significant number of MBP users who are sticking with older laptops - just like the genius in the article.

ibiza 9y ago
The previous generation MacBook Pros are still sold new on the Apple Store. Scroll down a bit: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch

asdfasdfasd333 9y ago

So glad someone called this out. A single key on my MBP broke and Apple wanted $500 to "fix" it, even with AppleCare. Fuck that.

baldfat 9y ago
Wait you had paid for Apple Care and yet they wanted $500? Why is Apple so sacred with so many people?
- shinratdr 9y ago
  Because this isn't the typical experience for most? I've had nothing but good things to say about Apple's repair policies. If it's in warranty, wander into an Apple Store, explain the issue, come back an hour or two later for your free fix or replacement. Done and done. I've also heard horror stories, but they're a pretty big company. I'm not surprised it's a mixed bag. I can say that there are almost no companies that have a store a couple blocks from me that I can walk into and get free same day repair service for some devices. The vast majority require me to mail my device into some unknown depot and be without it for a much longer period of time.
  - asdfasdfasd333 9y ago
    They consider the broken key to be "accidental damage" which puts the user at fault. Therefore, no warranty.
- asdfasdfasd333 9y ago
  This is correct. Not the first time Apple Care has screwed people.

svckr 9y ago

> Though Apple employees receive significant yearly discounts on computers, and this was the first significant redesign of the MacBook Pro’s body in eight years, he had chosen not to buy one of the new ones, even a year later. (The author, referring to a Genius' 2015 MBP) Umm. I earn modestly good money developing software and my 2010 MBP is starting to show its age. How much does he think an Apple Store employee makes? How much DOES an Apple Genius in NYC make?

cosmotron 9y ago
According to glassdoor, an Apple Genius working in NYC makes approximately $23/hour [1]. [1] https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Apple-Mac-Genius-New-York-City-Hourly-Pay-EJI_IE1138.0,5_KO6,16_IL.17,30_IM615.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Apple-Mac-Genius-New-Yo...
bsimpson 9y ago
FYI, OP is a woman: https://twitter.com/caseyjohnston https://twitter.com/caseyjohnston
- svckr 9y ago
  Thanks for pointing that out! Usually aiming for non-gendered language, but sometimes assumptions get the better of me!

bdcravens 9y ago

Am I the only one who would prefer the old style keys but keep the Touch ID?

api 9y ago

This is what happens when you hyper-optimize for a single dimension in a many-dimensional optimization problem. In this case it's "thin and light." MacBook Pros have been thin and light enough for nearly a decade. If I want tiny I have a smart phone that I can pull out of my pocket. I want a laptop to be a portable "real computer" with a lot of power, durability, and good ergonomics. Long battery life is also important. I'd be very happy with a thicker Pro with more CPU, more RAM, and a big battery. The latest Macs are such a disaster I'm currently thinking about how I can extricate myself from the platform and go back to either Windows or Linux. The OS is fine but the hardware has gone bozo. My latest Mac was a refurbished older model which I consider to be superior in many ways to the newer ones.

gingerb 9y ago

I am a developer spending 10+ hours a day on my old macbook pro (2015 model). It is without doubt the best pc I've ever had. And I am treating it with even more care now. I really don't want the new model as replacement, for more reasons. I don't expect Apple to recover from the loss of Steve Jobs, at least not in terms of quality. I see they are trying to remain a financial success. Which laptop will be an improvement compared to the one I have now? I don't want Windows, but a Linux distro would be great if the OS happened be as robust as OSX in all respects. I tried Arch, Ubuntu flavours, etc.. none of them compare in many ways. I actually never had a touchpad on any other laptop that behaved as smooth as the mbp one for example.

awalton 9y ago

There was literally nothing wrong with the MBP2013 keyboard. This endless pursuit of making anorexic electronics by Apple will only continue inventing faults like these - there's simply a limit to how thin these things can go and maintain durability, and that's what we're seeing here. Jobs never would have let this nonsense happen. He'd have pressed the key and thrown the machine at whomever invented this "butterfly" switch.

xBytez 9y ago

Regardless of the issues with the keyboard, I've given it a try and I just really can't enjoy typing on it, especially coming from a keyboard with tactile switches.

Philosopher 9y ago

This is coming from the company that used to do design and function so well. Now they just have form. Their obsession for thinness is stupid at this point.

lokerfoi 9y ago

Just read it and after about 4 months my B needs extra presses to work. Jinxed myself.

krishicks 9y ago

I have a 2015 MacBook and also use a HHKB Pro 2 Type S; both wildly different keyboards. I think the MacBook keyboard is wonderful, though I prefer my HHKB. It requires a different method of hitting the keys, but I have no problem going between the two, or to any of the other keyboards I use. I recall when Apple first came out with the thin aluminum keyboards that it took me some time to adjust from what I was using at the time, a Microsoft Ergo something or other with huge key travel and vague key actuation feel. If you get pain while using any keyboard you should look into how you're using it, and why you're getting that pain.