11 ms·

Most sushi fish isn't fresh

150 points by iamwil 9y ago

superb_herb 9y ago
Unless you live in a coastal area and know a fisherman personally, all the fish you are eating -- whether from a fish-monger or your grocery store, has been previously frozen and thawed. My friend was neighbors with a fisherman in Cape Cod. Now THAT was fresh fish.
- keevie 9y ago
  Which is a good thing, if you're interested in not getting parasites!
ithinkinstereo 9y ago
My understanding is that all "sushi-grade" fish is previously frozen. The freezing process is apparently necessary to kill/remove parasites in certain fish breeds.
- campground 9y ago
  I believe this is only necessary for salmon. Because they spawn inland they host parasites whose life cycle includes terrestrial animals, like bears and humans.
  - valuearb 9y ago
    Pretty sure all fish has parasites. I’ve read that chefs say all fish have worms.
  - munificent 9y ago
    > whose life cycle includes terrestrial animals, like bears and humans. I don't think that's generally the case. As far as I know, the main salmon parasites that we care about are Anisakis (nematodes) and Diphyllobothrium (tapeworms). The former is much more common than the latter, especially in the US where as far as I know broad tapeworm has only recently been detected in a small fraction of Alaskan salmon. Anisakis has no terrestrial hosts. Its lifecycle is crustacean -> fish -> aquatic mammal (whales, dolphins, seals) -> repeat. Humans and other land mammals are the host of Diphyllobothrium, but, again, I don't think that's very common. From what I've read, most of the need to freeze salmon comes from wanting to deal with roundworms.
  - pvaldes 9y ago
    Can host both types of parasites in fact. Killer whales and marine birds are another typical predators.
- raspasov 9y ago
  I recently learned that “sushi-grade” is just a marketing term that has no meaning beyond simply “good grade”. It’s most often used by restaurants themselves. It’s not regulated or oficially defined in any way.
- munificent 9y ago
  This is true for some but not all species. Most fishmongers will not recommend eating salmon raw unless it has been deep frozen (and not just frozen in a typical residential freezer, which doesn't get cold enough), but most consider eating raw never-frozen tuna to be fine. As with most things in life, it's really a question of risk and trade-offs. Parasites are rare enough in tuna that they are below the risk threshold for most people. Salmon less so, though it depends on where you get it and how much you trust them. The broad guideline is that deep, open water, fast-moving fish have a lower parasite load than fish who live closer to shore, closer to the bottom, and/or don't move as fast. Thus, tuna is pretty safe. But you're gonna want to cook an eel or a catfish before you stick it in your mouth. One of the things I find fascinating about sushi but try not to think about too much, is that the clear implication is that all of the needed-to-be-frozen sushi I have eaten probably did have some parasites in it. I just ate dead parasites, which I admit is better than eating live ones. Safe, but still kind of gross.
- bogomipz 9y ago
  There's actually no such thing as "sushi-grade" fish. There is no standard or regulation that designates fish as "sushi-grade." It's a popular misconception.
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  - evincarofautumn 9y ago
    I always thought it was a marketing term, where a certain store is willing to say “we’re confident that this can be eaten raw” and not some legal or regulatory standard of quality or freshness—that is, I thought the idea that it’s a popular misconception was itself a popular misconception. Moreover, I’ve even heard it used to describe simply “species of fish that are commonly considered safe to eat raw”.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  The article goes into some detail about the circumstances in which this is and isn't true (it's true for some fish from sources.)
- Finnucane 9y ago
  I think here in Massachusetts, at least, there is regulation to the effect that fish sold to be served raw _must_ be frozen to kill parasites. Possibly it is species-dependent, but I would make a guess that it is not. PS: turns out it is somewhat species dependent: http://www.mass.gov/eohhs/docs/dph/environmental/foodsafety/retail/sushi-guide.pdf http://www.mass.gov/eohhs/docs/dph/environmental/foodsafety/...
- adrr 9y ago
  Some of the poke places in LA use fresh tuna that was flown in from Hawaii. I think even the Costco poke is fresh. For those not familiar with poke, its a raw tuna , soy sauce and seaweed dish. You can remove parasites by sight easily.
  - fencepost 9y ago
    > You can remove parasites by sight easily. I'd rephrase that as being able to spot fully grown parasites easily, but parasites don't always come fully mature.
- MisterBastahrd 9y ago
  A little off topic, but virtually all cigars imported into the US are frozen as well, usually by the distributors (there are a few companies who manage their own distribution who do not... like My Father / Tatuaje). This is to kill the tobacco beetle eggs that may be on the leaf. The exporters from Cuba also freeze their cigars before sale, but the cigars sold on the island itself (either name brands or custom rolls) are not. These beetles can cause thousands of dollars worth of damage very quickly.
chaoticmass 9y ago
Umami. Umami umami, umami. Umami? Umami.
colemannugent 9y ago
If it tastes good and doesn't make you sick, who cares?
- bllguo 9y ago
  That was my reaction. But it's actually just a poorly chosen title. In fact the article basically says that freshness is actually not important in sushi
  - 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
    "Maguro and toro needs at least a week of aging, sometimes up to two weeks in refrigeration. Sake (salmon) and Ohyou (halibut) requires around five days of aging. On the other hand, according to Kaz Matsune, fish like binna maguro (albacore tuna) and katsuo (bonito) taste better without aging." The amount you age the fish is important.
- devmunchies 9y ago
  > ...who cares? I know it was rhetorical but I'd assume vegetarians, conservationists, anyone concerned with overfishing, people concerned with the destruction of the ocean ecosystems.
- iamwil 9y ago
  OP here. A couple angles to this. 1) Anything is interesting if you look deep enough. What's frivolous to some is a hobby to another. Look at fanfic writers on the internet. 2) There are some things that we eat that have long term ramifications, rather than short term ramifications. Knowing what we put into our body helps us with the long term ramifications. 3) When it comes to sushi, it's pretty expensive, so you'll want to know what you're getting for the price. Learning more about it is one way to enjoy it as you're stuffing it into your face hole.
NikolaeVarius 9y ago
I always found the cognitive dissonance interesting when people claim the best sushi is never frozen, while simultaneously ignoring the fact that even at places like Tsukiji Fish market, all the fish that is being offloaded from the boats is all obviously frozen.
- jessermeyer 9y ago
  At what point does fish cooling on ice become frozen?
  - PStamatiou 9y ago
    I went to the tuna auction at Tsukiji a while back.. massive frozen tuna https://paulstamatiou.com/photos/japan/japan-day-5/ https://paulstamatiou.com/photos/japan/japan-day-5/
    - s_kilk 9y ago
      OT, but I had no idea tuna were that big.
      - stevenwoo 9y ago
        Even more OT, but if you like sushi, the documentary Jiro Dreams of Sushi lightly touches on the entire process of making sushi in a Tokyo restaurant along with the story of a family restaurant. Then if you liked that, there is a touching and gentle mockumentary about it called Juan Likes Rice and Chicken.
      - southphillyman 9y ago
        I've known for a couple of years now that tuna are big but I grew up thinking tuna was a small sardine sized fish. It probably was due to the fact I never see whole tuna at fish markets (probably too big to sell the entire fish) and it comes canned.
      - habeebtc 9y ago
        This is the current average size of tuna now, from what I gather. The average size 50 years back was much bigger. In 1979 a guy caught a bluefin of around 1,500 lbs. Tuna are big fish.
bogomipz 9y ago
I highly recommend the book "The Sushi Economy: Globalization and the Making of a Modern Delicacy" by Sasha Issenber: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000V5076G/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000V5076G/ Its a fascinating read, the author spent 2 years traveling around the world from fishing boats, to wholesalers, to sushi restaurants following the supply chain.
- marak830 9y ago
  Thanks for the tip, I'll check this one out.
pmoriarty 9y ago
"When butchered in this matter, the fish doesn’t know that it’s dead." Otherwise it would know it's dead?
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  A somewhat more useful description would involve replacing “dead” with “dying” (though “know” is still a bit of a misleading term.) The excerpt from Wikipedia quoted in the article is actually more useful than the article text on this point.
- jdale27 9y ago
  Lol, yeah, I thought the same thing. I assume the point is that the physiological reaction the fish has when dying is altered.
- jjulius 9y ago
  Your reaction was the same as mine initially, until I realized they meant that the fish's body doesn't respond as though it normally would once it's dead.
  - mc32 9y ago
    Yeah, I think it's related to something like this: http://mashable.com/2017/07/07/sliced-tuna-fish-flailing/#xeQh12.O1Pq8 http://mashable.com/2017/07/07/sliced-tuna-fish-flailing/#xe...
_sy_ 9y ago
I can confirm that it tastes best when you wait. I occasionally go Ahi fishing off the shore of Kauai with friends, and they usually ice it right away and wait a couple of days before cutting it for sashimi.
tremendo 9y ago
"Superfreezing is a relatively new technology that was developed in the 1990’s that drops the core temperature of a 500 pound tuna to minus 70 degrees below zero." Found this part interesting. I worked for a short while in fisheries in the mid to late 90s, and graded fish for Sushi. There/then fish was iced, not frozen, as soon as captured to slow their metabolism, reduce any after-effects of stress, a cut is made so they also bleed, and die faster and as peacefully as possible. They are kept long enough to allow for rigor mortis (I guess what this article refers to aging), so when it ends it results in soft, melts-in-your-mouth meat. But no, not frozen, not for the "No. 1" destined for best clients. Lesser (cheaper) restaurants yes, frozen, older, lower quality fish. This article refers to the US, and yes most of it is far, far away from the coast, and only way is to freeze it to distribute it such long distances. Unless flown in, obviously making the product much more expensive. So sure, as title says "Most sushi fish isn't fresh". In the same way, most sushi isn't the best sushi. And in many cases it doesn't really matter, if you want a quick and still yummy meal. For tuna you can readily tell, even if you haven't trained your sense of smell, by the color. Most tuna here in the US you can see it a matte pink, instead of deep, alive, blood-like red, and you know right away it's been frozen. Anyway, it seems to me the article gives the idea that freshness doesn't matter at all for sushi. I disagree.
- exhilaration 9y ago
  Most tuna here in the US you can see it a matte pink, instead of deep, alive, blood-like red, and you know right away it's been frozen. I thought it was red because it's treated with carbon monoxide? http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/06/dining/tunas-red-glare-it-could-be-carbon-monoxide.html http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/06/dining/tunas-red-glare-it-...
  - tremendo 9y ago
    LOL yes, it seems they've found a way to game it. There's still the smell test, I hope. The point still stands, it's easy to tell by the pink color when tuna has been frozen.
  - mabramo 9y ago
    Some tuna actually is red, though. For example, yellow fin tuna. Caught one last month and when I got home my brother and I made sashimi... Meaning that we cut it into slices and ate it. It was so, so good. I still like it after it's been frozen, but it's no longer good for sashimi.
vytis 9y ago
Interesting related fact that salmon sushi is a recent invention by norwegians and is not served in traditional restaurants in Japan - http://www.npr.org/2015/09/18/441530790/how-the-desperate-norwegian-salmon-industry-created-a-sushi-staple http://www.npr.org/2015/09/18/441530790/how-the-desperate-no...
BeeOnRope 9y ago
This was news to me, but in the other direction: the claim is that 50-60 percent of fish served as sushi has been frozen at some point, implying that 40-50 has never been frozen. Given that most of the non-tuna species need to be frozen and the tuna supply chain consists almost entirely of frozen fish outside of some high end restaurants in big cities (and perhaps some fishing towns that make a up vanishingly small portion of sushi consumption) - where is all this fresh fish coming from? On top of that, salmon and varieties of tuna seem to make up the large majority of fish used in sushi. Yes, other options exist, especially at high-end places, but go into your run-of-the-mill sushi joint pretty much anywhere and those two dominate (not counting the "fake crab" that seems to make up half of maki by weight these days - that's certainly frozen also). As above, tuna is generally frozen, and salmon largely has to be, so where is all this fresh fish at?
- derekp7 9y ago
  Just because it hasn't been frozen doesn't mean that it is fresh either. Consider the number of smoked fish options (such as smoked salmon) -- the fish can be shipped refrigerated after smoking, and can last quite a while.
abalone 9y ago
Another surprise: French macarons are often frozen prior to display in patisseries. A French chef told me this was a professional secret. The Bouchon cookbook says it makes them "chewier and more fun"[1]. [1] https://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/30892/freezing-bouchon-bakery-macarons-whole-cookie-or-just-the-halves https://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/30892/freezing-b...
subpixel 9y ago
Related... Ever go on vacation someplace famous for its seafood? Well, ask what seafood on the menu is from the region. You may be very surprised. The trick to getting a truthful answer is to come across like you're just enthusiastic to have an authentic local dish. Then the manager or server is more likely to empathize and steer you towards what, if anything, is actually local. I've found that asking what is 'from the region' elicits better responses than asking what is 'local'. I've also learned that when someone is admitting, by omission, that a lot of the fish and crustaceans on the menu are not local, they do not really want to explain where it's from. Usually its from all over the world and to know for sure they'd have to go look at a box in the alley.
- et-al 9y ago
  Whenever I've visited to remote coastal towns, I've always been skeptical of freshness. Contemporary American food distribution is pretty much hub and spoke.
Groxx 9y ago
Flash-freezing is an entirely different beast than tossing something in your freezer. I wish we'd just embrace it culturally - the results are often much better than "fresh", and are far safer, longer-lasting, and more consistent.
- anitil 9y ago
  I catch my own fish (other than sushi/sashimi I haven't bought fish in years) and 100% agree with you. You can taste the difference between fresh and frozen in a home freezer, but I think you wouldn't notice with flash freezing in a blind test. And a lot of fish (kingfish and the rest of the seriola family for one example) are _better_ after a few days anyway, similar to resting beef.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    If you're freezing your fish at home, put it in water. I clean them and put them in ziplock bags with just enough water to cover them. I don't have a good word for this, so I will say that it removes the freezer taste.
    - anitil 9y ago
      Thanks! Will definitely try this. I invested in a vacuum sealer which works OK but is a bit of a pain. My approach lately is to give away what I can't eat immediately.
      - wil421 9y ago
        Try a few methods in this link[1]. I’ve had great success with fresh fish using the water glaze. Lemon gelatin is supposedly the best method but I haven’t tried it myself. Go Dawgs![1]http://nchfp.uga.edu/how/freeze/fish.html http://nchfp.uga.edu/how/freeze/fish.html
        Groxx 9y ago
        Interesting - thanks for the link! I'll have to try these some time. I do wonder how much of this is just preventing condensation / freezer burn though. A moderate ice layer will probably be enough to stop auto-defrosting freezers from destroying food so quickly.
CalChris 9y ago
I asked a sushi chef about using local Pacific mackerel since I liked his saba. He said that his mackerel came from Norway and that he wouldn't use Pacific mackerel because of mercury levels. I've eaten a ton of saba. He made great saba. But I can't eat it in most sushi restaurants because it isn't fresh. Now this article talks about the fish being fresh and that is one thing. Another is for something like saba which takes about 24 hours of preparation. Salting + marinating, there is differentiation in these. But when it's done, it's meant to be eaten. And if a restaurant doesn't get enough orders, it get put back in the fridge. And that tastes like old stale fish. I suppose I should ask when they make it and come by that day. BTW, my sushi chef closed his restaurant on University Ave and now caters mostly to startups. My ex-gf was also a chef and she told me that it's hard to make a living running a restaurant. It's much easier in catering since you know exactly how much to prepare on a day. https://www.edokoberkeley.com/ https://www.edokoberkeley.com/
- hkmurakami 9y ago
  Good saba is hard to come by in the states. It's the one item I make sure to order at every sushi place I go to in Japan, because it's so hard to get a good one back home.
  - panabee 9y ago
    where is your favorite in the bay area?
    - hkmurakami 9y ago
      Not really happy with any of them for various reasons so I'll cop out and say Shunji in LA. X_X That being said I think plenty of places in SF offer high quality nigiri, and a few places in South bay are decent places for casual stops. None really entice me to frequent them.
cageface 9y ago
Enjoy your sushi while you can because at current fishing rates it will be gone in our lifetimes, fresh or frozen. http://www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/sushi-obsession-is-destroying-our-oceans/ http://www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/sushi-obsession-is...
- bdamm 9y ago
  Surely that only means the price will rise to become an exotic delicacy, rather than "gone"?
  - njarboe 9y ago
    Unless there is some kind of global control on catching, for example, blue-fin tuna (which travels outside of nationally controlled waters), "gone" seems more likely. The feedback loop of, the rarer the fish - the higher the price, will push some species to extinction in the wild.
    - irrational 9y ago
      I've never eaten sushi, so I'm not familiar with what fish are normally eaten, but can these fish be farm-raised?
      - njarboe 9y ago
        Farm raising tuna is difficult. Not sure if it is done commercially yet and, even if successful, I would guess wild caught tuna will still be highly prized in Japan. It is really the Japanese market that is and will keep driving the high end of the fish market.
        djrogers 9y ago
        It's a little more complicated than just 'farmed vs wild-caught', as a lot of tuna is wild-caught, then transferred to floating pens to fatten up for up to a year. Penned tuna are neither truly wild, nor considered farmed as there is no breeding stock.
colbyh 9y ago
We're close with Michelin-star sushi chef and he's never tried to hide the fact that all of their fish has been frozen at some point. He finds it odd that diners care about it so much, but he's also of the opinion that all fish tastes better after it's been dead for at least a day. Certain fish even tastes best after a few days frozen.
- cloverich 9y ago
  There's a Parts Unknown episode with Anthony Bourdain where he highlights this, basically saying that if he ever hears anyone say "That sushi was so good, it was so fresh" he knows that don't know what they are talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0hH_XR433A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0hH_XR433A
  - Filligree 9y ago
    I don't know about typical sushi fish, but I've eaten a lot of cod that was caught, boiled, and put on the dinner table all within about forty minutes. It falls apart on the plate, but it's also one of the best-tasting types of fish dinner I've ever had. Once it's an hour old it's too late, though, so I don't expect to ever see such fish commercially.
    - e12e 9y ago
      You can keep the fish (and squid) alive, and even stir fry it alive. Won't work with all fish, obviously.
    - babesh 9y ago
      Yup. At least several kinds of fish are really good fresh. There is this Cantonese thing with live fish that are killed and immediately cooked... usually steamed but also pan fried. Delicious.
      - wahern 9y ago
        There's at least one restaurant in San Francisco Chinatown that sells _live_ drunken shrimp. Yes, they're still moving, if only sporadically. It's a fun dish, but uncooked shrimp are pretty tasteless, and the rice wine doesn't help much.
nraynaud 9y ago
In France it’s forbidden to sell fish for raw consumption that has not been frozen at some point.
leekyle333 9y ago
I wonder if this is the case with Salmon. I always find fresh wild caught salmon much better during the summer, than the flash frozen stuff. Could be due to the lower fat content in sockeye.
- iamwil 9y ago
  According to what I found out, Salmon is prone to parasites, so it's often frozen to kill them.
- cbhl 9y ago
  Salmon sushi is actually a modern invention; the result of the Norway government having too much fish in the 80s and needing someone to buy it. http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/09/16/440951873/episode-651-the-salmon-taboo http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/09/16/440951873/episo...
derrekl 9y ago
I was in Kauai about 10 years back and a friend of ours who hunts goats traded with a friend for some fresh of the boat tuna. We tried a bit of that tuna the first day, maybe 8 hours after it was caught, sashimi style. It was terrible, just as our friend told us it'd be. It was super chewy and tough. Next night the stuff was great, and two nights later it was FANTASTIC!
G4BB3R 9y ago
Go vegan :D
nubbins 9y ago
I think there are two very different definitions of fresh causing confusion. I've seen US supermarkets keep fish on display for like a week, at which point it develops a very off "fishy" odor. I don't even think it occurs to the Japanese that anyone would do this, or they would be horrified to find out, but when Americans talk about fresh sushi they probably mostly mean sushi NOT having the nasty off flavors. You rarely hear "that was a great burger, so fresh" because we don't have such a quality control problem with beef (as far as I know).
justinator 9y ago
We used to eat shellfish at least "while it's still smiling" - caught right off the side of the boat, force the shell open with a knife, perhaps a dab of hot sauce, then down the hatch! It's certainly a unique experience.

150 points by iamwil 9y ago

Unless you live in a coastal area and know a fisherman personally, all the fish you are eating -- whether from a fish-monger or your grocery store, has been previously frozen and thawed. My friend was neighbors with a fisherman in Cape Cod. Now THAT was fresh fish.

keevie 9y ago
Which is a good thing, if you're interested in not getting parasites!

ithinkinstereo 9y ago

My understanding is that all "sushi-grade" fish is previously frozen. The freezing process is apparently necessary to kill/remove parasites in certain fish breeds.

campground 9y ago
I believe this is only necessary for salmon. Because they spawn inland they host parasites whose life cycle includes terrestrial animals, like bears and humans.
- valuearb 9y ago
  Pretty sure all fish has parasites. I’ve read that chefs say all fish have worms.
- munificent 9y ago
  > whose life cycle includes terrestrial animals, like bears and humans. I don't think that's generally the case. As far as I know, the main salmon parasites that we care about are Anisakis (nematodes) and Diphyllobothrium (tapeworms). The former is much more common than the latter, especially in the US where as far as I know broad tapeworm has only recently been detected in a small fraction of Alaskan salmon. Anisakis has no terrestrial hosts. Its lifecycle is crustacean -> fish -> aquatic mammal (whales, dolphins, seals) -> repeat. Humans and other land mammals are the host of Diphyllobothrium, but, again, I don't think that's very common. From what I've read, most of the need to freeze salmon comes from wanting to deal with roundworms.
- pvaldes 9y ago
  Can host both types of parasites in fact. Killer whales and marine birds are another typical predators.
raspasov 9y ago
I recently learned that “sushi-grade” is just a marketing term that has no meaning beyond simply “good grade”. It’s most often used by restaurants themselves. It’s not regulated or oficially defined in any way.
munificent 9y ago
This is true for some but not all species. Most fishmongers will not recommend eating salmon raw unless it has been deep frozen (and not just frozen in a typical residential freezer, which doesn't get cold enough), but most consider eating raw never-frozen tuna to be fine. As with most things in life, it's really a question of risk and trade-offs. Parasites are rare enough in tuna that they are below the risk threshold for most people. Salmon less so, though it depends on where you get it and how much you trust them. The broad guideline is that deep, open water, fast-moving fish have a lower parasite load than fish who live closer to shore, closer to the bottom, and/or don't move as fast. Thus, tuna is pretty safe. But you're gonna want to cook an eel or a catfish before you stick it in your mouth. One of the things I find fascinating about sushi but try not to think about too much, is that the clear implication is that all of the needed-to-be-frozen sushi I have eaten probably did have some parasites in it. I just ate dead parasites, which I admit is better than eating live ones. Safe, but still kind of gross.
bogomipz 9y ago
There's actually no such thing as "sushi-grade" fish. There is no standard or regulation that designates fish as "sushi-grade." It's a popular misconception.
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- evincarofautumn 9y ago
  I always thought it was a marketing term, where a certain store is willing to say “we’re confident that this can be eaten raw” and not some legal or regulatory standard of quality or freshness—that is, I thought the idea that it’s a popular misconception was itself a popular misconception. Moreover, I’ve even heard it used to describe simply “species of fish that are commonly considered safe to eat raw”.
dragonwriter 9y ago
The article goes into some detail about the circumstances in which this is and isn't true (it's true for some fish from sources.)
Finnucane 9y ago
I think here in Massachusetts, at least, there is regulation to the effect that fish sold to be served raw _must_ be frozen to kill parasites. Possibly it is species-dependent, but I would make a guess that it is not. PS: turns out it is somewhat species dependent: http://www.mass.gov/eohhs/docs/dph/environmental/foodsafety/retail/sushi-guide.pdf http://www.mass.gov/eohhs/docs/dph/environmental/foodsafety/...
adrr 9y ago
Some of the poke places in LA use fresh tuna that was flown in from Hawaii. I think even the Costco poke is fresh. For those not familiar with poke, its a raw tuna , soy sauce and seaweed dish. You can remove parasites by sight easily.
- fencepost 9y ago
  > You can remove parasites by sight easily. I'd rephrase that as being able to spot fully grown parasites easily, but parasites don't always come fully mature.
MisterBastahrd 9y ago
A little off topic, but virtually all cigars imported into the US are frozen as well, usually by the distributors (there are a few companies who manage their own distribution who do not... like My Father / Tatuaje). This is to kill the tobacco beetle eggs that may be on the leaf. The exporters from Cuba also freeze their cigars before sale, but the cigars sold on the island itself (either name brands or custom rolls) are not. These beetles can cause thousands of dollars worth of damage very quickly.

chaoticmass 9y ago

Umami. Umami umami, umami. Umami? Umami.

colemannugent 9y ago

If it tastes good and doesn't make you sick, who cares?

bllguo 9y ago
That was my reaction. But it's actually just a poorly chosen title. In fact the article basically says that freshness is actually not important in sushi
- 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
  "Maguro and toro needs at least a week of aging, sometimes up to two weeks in refrigeration. Sake (salmon) and Ohyou (halibut) requires around five days of aging. On the other hand, according to Kaz Matsune, fish like binna maguro (albacore tuna) and katsuo (bonito) taste better without aging." The amount you age the fish is important.
devmunchies 9y ago
> ...who cares? I know it was rhetorical but I'd assume vegetarians, conservationists, anyone concerned with overfishing, people concerned with the destruction of the ocean ecosystems.
iamwil 9y ago
OP here. A couple angles to this. 1) Anything is interesting if you look deep enough. What's frivolous to some is a hobby to another. Look at fanfic writers on the internet. 2) There are some things that we eat that have long term ramifications, rather than short term ramifications. Knowing what we put into our body helps us with the long term ramifications. 3) When it comes to sushi, it's pretty expensive, so you'll want to know what you're getting for the price. Learning more about it is one way to enjoy it as you're stuffing it into your face hole.

NikolaeVarius 9y ago

I always found the cognitive dissonance interesting when people claim the best sushi is never frozen, while simultaneously ignoring the fact that even at places like Tsukiji Fish market, all the fish that is being offloaded from the boats is all obviously frozen.

jessermeyer 9y ago
At what point does fish cooling on ice become frozen?
- PStamatiou 9y ago
  I went to the tuna auction at Tsukiji a while back.. massive frozen tuna https://paulstamatiou.com/photos/japan/japan-day-5/ https://paulstamatiou.com/photos/japan/japan-day-5/
  - s_kilk 9y ago
    OT, but I had no idea tuna were that big.
    - stevenwoo 9y ago
      Even more OT, but if you like sushi, the documentary Jiro Dreams of Sushi lightly touches on the entire process of making sushi in a Tokyo restaurant along with the story of a family restaurant. Then if you liked that, there is a touching and gentle mockumentary about it called Juan Likes Rice and Chicken.
    - southphillyman 9y ago
      I've known for a couple of years now that tuna are big but I grew up thinking tuna was a small sardine sized fish. It probably was due to the fact I never see whole tuna at fish markets (probably too big to sell the entire fish) and it comes canned.
    - habeebtc 9y ago
      This is the current average size of tuna now, from what I gather. The average size 50 years back was much bigger. In 1979 a guy caught a bluefin of around 1,500 lbs. Tuna are big fish.

bogomipz 9y ago

I highly recommend the book "The Sushi Economy: Globalization and the Making of a Modern Delicacy" by Sasha Issenber: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000V5076G/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000V5076G/ Its a fascinating read, the author spent 2 years traveling around the world from fishing boats, to wholesalers, to sushi restaurants following the supply chain.

marak830 9y ago
Thanks for the tip, I'll check this one out.

pmoriarty 9y ago

"When butchered in this matter, the fish doesn’t know that it’s dead." Otherwise it would know it's dead?

dragonwriter 9y ago
A somewhat more useful description would involve replacing “dead” with “dying” (though “know” is still a bit of a misleading term.) The excerpt from Wikipedia quoted in the article is actually more useful than the article text on this point.
jdale27 9y ago
Lol, yeah, I thought the same thing. I assume the point is that the physiological reaction the fish has when dying is altered.
jjulius 9y ago
Your reaction was the same as mine initially, until I realized they meant that the fish's body doesn't respond as though it normally would once it's dead.
- mc32 9y ago
  Yeah, I think it's related to something like this: http://mashable.com/2017/07/07/sliced-tuna-fish-flailing/#xeQh12.O1Pq8 http://mashable.com/2017/07/07/sliced-tuna-fish-flailing/#xe...

_sy_ 9y ago

I can confirm that it tastes best when you wait. I occasionally go Ahi fishing off the shore of Kauai with friends, and they usually ice it right away and wait a couple of days before cutting it for sashimi.

tremendo 9y ago

"Superfreezing is a relatively new technology that was developed in the 1990’s that drops the core temperature of a 500 pound tuna to minus 70 degrees below zero." Found this part interesting. I worked for a short while in fisheries in the mid to late 90s, and graded fish for Sushi. There/then fish was iced, not frozen, as soon as captured to slow their metabolism, reduce any after-effects of stress, a cut is made so they also bleed, and die faster and as peacefully as possible. They are kept long enough to allow for rigor mortis (I guess what this article refers to aging), so when it ends it results in soft, melts-in-your-mouth meat. But no, not frozen, not for the "No. 1" destined for best clients. Lesser (cheaper) restaurants yes, frozen, older, lower quality fish. This article refers to the US, and yes most of it is far, far away from the coast, and only way is to freeze it to distribute it such long distances. Unless flown in, obviously making the product much more expensive. So sure, as title says "Most sushi fish isn't fresh". In the same way, most sushi isn't the best sushi. And in many cases it doesn't really matter, if you want a quick and still yummy meal. For tuna you can readily tell, even if you haven't trained your sense of smell, by the color. Most tuna here in the US you can see it a matte pink, instead of deep, alive, blood-like red, and you know right away it's been frozen. Anyway, it seems to me the article gives the idea that freshness doesn't matter at all for sushi. I disagree.

exhilaration 9y ago
Most tuna here in the US you can see it a matte pink, instead of deep, alive, blood-like red, and you know right away it's been frozen. I thought it was red because it's treated with carbon monoxide? http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/06/dining/tunas-red-glare-it-could-be-carbon-monoxide.html http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/06/dining/tunas-red-glare-it-...
- tremendo 9y ago
  LOL yes, it seems they've found a way to game it. There's still the smell test, I hope. The point still stands, it's easy to tell by the pink color when tuna has been frozen.
- mabramo 9y ago
  Some tuna actually is red, though. For example, yellow fin tuna. Caught one last month and when I got home my brother and I made sashimi... Meaning that we cut it into slices and ate it. It was so, so good. I still like it after it's been frozen, but it's no longer good for sashimi.

vytis 9y ago

Interesting related fact that salmon sushi is a recent invention by norwegians and is not served in traditional restaurants in Japan - http://www.npr.org/2015/09/18/441530790/how-the-desperate-norwegian-salmon-industry-created-a-sushi-staple http://www.npr.org/2015/09/18/441530790/how-the-desperate-no...

BeeOnRope 9y ago

This was news to me, but in the other direction: the claim is that 50-60 percent of fish served as sushi has been frozen at some point, implying that 40-50 has never been frozen. Given that most of the non-tuna species need to be frozen and the tuna supply chain consists almost entirely of frozen fish outside of some high end restaurants in big cities (and perhaps some fishing towns that make a up vanishingly small portion of sushi consumption) - where is all this fresh fish coming from? On top of that, salmon and varieties of tuna seem to make up the large majority of fish used in sushi. Yes, other options exist, especially at high-end places, but go into your run-of-the-mill sushi joint pretty much anywhere and those two dominate (not counting the "fake crab" that seems to make up half of maki by weight these days - that's certainly frozen also). As above, tuna is generally frozen, and salmon largely has to be, so where is all this fresh fish at?

derekp7 9y ago
Just because it hasn't been frozen doesn't mean that it is fresh either. Consider the number of smoked fish options (such as smoked salmon) -- the fish can be shipped refrigerated after smoking, and can last quite a while.

abalone 9y ago

Another surprise: French macarons are often frozen prior to display in patisseries. A French chef told me this was a professional secret. The Bouchon cookbook says it makes them "chewier and more fun"[1]. [1] https://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/30892/freezing-bouchon-bakery-macarons-whole-cookie-or-just-the-halves https://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/30892/freezing-b...

subpixel 9y ago

Related... Ever go on vacation someplace famous for its seafood? Well, ask what seafood on the menu is from the region. You may be very surprised. The trick to getting a truthful answer is to come across like you're just enthusiastic to have an authentic local dish. Then the manager or server is more likely to empathize and steer you towards what, if anything, is actually local. I've found that asking what is 'from the region' elicits better responses than asking what is 'local'. I've also learned that when someone is admitting, by omission, that a lot of the fish and crustaceans on the menu are not local, they do not really want to explain where it's from. Usually its from all over the world and to know for sure they'd have to go look at a box in the alley.

et-al 9y ago
Whenever I've visited to remote coastal towns, I've always been skeptical of freshness. Contemporary American food distribution is pretty much hub and spoke.

Groxx 9y ago

Flash-freezing is an entirely different beast than tossing something in your freezer. I wish we'd just embrace it culturally - the results are often much better than "fresh", and are far safer, longer-lasting, and more consistent.

anitil 9y ago
I catch my own fish (other than sushi/sashimi I haven't bought fish in years) and 100% agree with you. You can taste the difference between fresh and frozen in a home freezer, but I think you wouldn't notice with flash freezing in a blind test. And a lot of fish (kingfish and the rest of the seriola family for one example) are _better_ after a few days anyway, similar to resting beef.
- KGIII 9y ago
  If you're freezing your fish at home, put it in water. I clean them and put them in ziplock bags with just enough water to cover them. I don't have a good word for this, so I will say that it removes the freezer taste.
  - anitil 9y ago
    Thanks! Will definitely try this. I invested in a vacuum sealer which works OK but is a bit of a pain. My approach lately is to give away what I can't eat immediately.
    - wil421 9y ago
      Try a few methods in this link[1]. I’ve had great success with fresh fish using the water glaze. Lemon gelatin is supposedly the best method but I haven’t tried it myself. Go Dawgs![1]http://nchfp.uga.edu/how/freeze/fish.html http://nchfp.uga.edu/how/freeze/fish.html
      - Groxx 9y ago
        Interesting - thanks for the link! I'll have to try these some time. I do wonder how much of this is just preventing condensation / freezer burn though. A moderate ice layer will probably be enough to stop auto-defrosting freezers from destroying food so quickly.

CalChris 9y ago

I asked a sushi chef about using local Pacific mackerel since I liked his saba. He said that his mackerel came from Norway and that he wouldn't use Pacific mackerel because of mercury levels. I've eaten a ton of saba. He made great saba. But I can't eat it in most sushi restaurants because it isn't fresh. Now this article talks about the fish being fresh and that is one thing. Another is for something like saba which takes about 24 hours of preparation. Salting + marinating, there is differentiation in these. But when it's done, it's meant to be eaten. And if a restaurant doesn't get enough orders, it get put back in the fridge. And that tastes like old stale fish. I suppose I should ask when they make it and come by that day. BTW, my sushi chef closed his restaurant on University Ave and now caters mostly to startups. My ex-gf was also a chef and she told me that it's hard to make a living running a restaurant. It's much easier in catering since you know exactly how much to prepare on a day. https://www.edokoberkeley.com/ https://www.edokoberkeley.com/

hkmurakami 9y ago
Good saba is hard to come by in the states. It's the one item I make sure to order at every sushi place I go to in Japan, because it's so hard to get a good one back home.
- panabee 9y ago
  where is your favorite in the bay area?
  - hkmurakami 9y ago
    Not really happy with any of them for various reasons so I'll cop out and say Shunji in LA. X_X That being said I think plenty of places in SF offer high quality nigiri, and a few places in South bay are decent places for casual stops. None really entice me to frequent them.

cageface 9y ago

Enjoy your sushi while you can because at current fishing rates it will be gone in our lifetimes, fresh or frozen. http://www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/sushi-obsession-is-destroying-our-oceans/ http://www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/sushi-obsession-is...

bdamm 9y ago
Surely that only means the price will rise to become an exotic delicacy, rather than "gone"?
- njarboe 9y ago
  Unless there is some kind of global control on catching, for example, blue-fin tuna (which travels outside of nationally controlled waters), "gone" seems more likely. The feedback loop of, the rarer the fish - the higher the price, will push some species to extinction in the wild.
  - irrational 9y ago
    I've never eaten sushi, so I'm not familiar with what fish are normally eaten, but can these fish be farm-raised?
    - njarboe 9y ago
      Farm raising tuna is difficult. Not sure if it is done commercially yet and, even if successful, I would guess wild caught tuna will still be highly prized in Japan. It is really the Japanese market that is and will keep driving the high end of the fish market.
      - djrogers 9y ago
        It's a little more complicated than just 'farmed vs wild-caught', as a lot of tuna is wild-caught, then transferred to floating pens to fatten up for up to a year. Penned tuna are neither truly wild, nor considered farmed as there is no breeding stock.

colbyh 9y ago

We're close with Michelin-star sushi chef and he's never tried to hide the fact that all of their fish has been frozen at some point. He finds it odd that diners care about it so much, but he's also of the opinion that all fish tastes better after it's been dead for at least a day. Certain fish even tastes best after a few days frozen.

cloverich 9y ago
There's a Parts Unknown episode with Anthony Bourdain where he highlights this, basically saying that if he ever hears anyone say "That sushi was so good, it was so fresh" he knows that don't know what they are talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0hH_XR433A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0hH_XR433A
- Filligree 9y ago
  I don't know about typical sushi fish, but I've eaten a lot of cod that was caught, boiled, and put on the dinner table all within about forty minutes. It falls apart on the plate, but it's also one of the best-tasting types of fish dinner I've ever had. Once it's an hour old it's too late, though, so I don't expect to ever see such fish commercially.
  - e12e 9y ago
    You can keep the fish (and squid) alive, and even stir fry it alive. Won't work with all fish, obviously.
  - babesh 9y ago
    Yup. At least several kinds of fish are really good fresh. There is this Cantonese thing with live fish that are killed and immediately cooked... usually steamed but also pan fried. Delicious.
    - wahern 9y ago
      There's at least one restaurant in San Francisco Chinatown that sells _live_ drunken shrimp. Yes, they're still moving, if only sporadically. It's a fun dish, but uncooked shrimp are pretty tasteless, and the rice wine doesn't help much.

nraynaud 9y ago

In France it’s forbidden to sell fish for raw consumption that has not been frozen at some point.

leekyle333 9y ago

I wonder if this is the case with Salmon. I always find fresh wild caught salmon much better during the summer, than the flash frozen stuff. Could be due to the lower fat content in sockeye.

iamwil 9y ago
According to what I found out, Salmon is prone to parasites, so it's often frozen to kill them.
cbhl 9y ago
Salmon sushi is actually a modern invention; the result of the Norway government having too much fish in the 80s and needing someone to buy it. http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/09/16/440951873/episode-651-the-salmon-taboo http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/09/16/440951873/episo...

derrekl 9y ago

I was in Kauai about 10 years back and a friend of ours who hunts goats traded with a friend for some fresh of the boat tuna. We tried a bit of that tuna the first day, maybe 8 hours after it was caught, sashimi style. It was terrible, just as our friend told us it'd be. It was super chewy and tough. Next night the stuff was great, and two nights later it was FANTASTIC!

G4BB3R 9y ago

Go vegan :D

nubbins 9y ago

I think there are two very different definitions of fresh causing confusion. I've seen US supermarkets keep fish on display for like a week, at which point it develops a very off "fishy" odor. I don't even think it occurs to the Japanese that anyone would do this, or they would be horrified to find out, but when Americans talk about fresh sushi they probably mostly mean sushi NOT having the nasty off flavors. You rarely hear "that was a great burger, so fresh" because we don't have such a quality control problem with beef (as far as I know).

justinator 9y ago

We used to eat shellfish at least "while it's still smiling" - caught right off the side of the boat, force the shell open with a knife, perhaps a dab of hot sauce, then down the hatch! It's certainly a unique experience.