7 ms·

58% of classroom graduates making $74,447 average seems better than most universities out there. Too bad they had to lie about it.

arkades 9y ago
Is it better than a university CS degree?
- jcwayne 9y ago
  After accounting for the difference in cost and time required, quite possibly.
  - lloyd-christmas 9y ago
    From my experience, boot camps are more frequently a supplement rather than a replacement to college education.
  - learc83 9y ago
    They have a much lower acceptance rate than the vast majority of CS programs. You'd need to compare them to Stanford, MIT, Harvard, Berkeley etc...
    - Dtrane 9y ago
      Being intellectually honest, I'd have to say that they aren't really comparable. The low acceptance rate is true, but the sheer amount of completely unacceptable applications that are filled out after seeing one of these "make 75k in 3 months" ads contributes heavily to the percentage. I attended this school and while most of my classmates were highly-intelligent people of diverse backgrounds, I can absolutely say it is much easier to get into Flatiron school than any of the programs listed above.
      - sleigh-bells 9y ago
        I've heard that many people who don't know any coding at all often apply to bootcamps and simply just flunk the first coding assessment they get. They probably help account for much of the low admissions rate at any half decent bootcamp (that have coding assessments).
- got2surf 9y ago
  "Better" is tough to say - coding bootcamps are focused on getting a coding job, but university CS degrees are not (CS graduates going into other fields [like finance], research/grad school, etc). If the goal is to get a high-paying coding job as quickly as possible, bootcamps look good. Would be interesting to look at longer-term trends in a few years - career advancement, job type, management level, industry within tech, etc.
  - lloyd-christmas 9y ago
    A bit of a rant since I worked in the industry: > CS graduates going into other fields [like finance] Finance is just like every other high-professional industry, they train you for what you need to know because they are invested in your success. I worked in that industry for 6 years. Most banks run a 2-3 month internal bootcamp for fresh college hires. I was a math/econ double major and sat next to an english lit major in my class. My brother was a poli-sci major and went straight from college -> bootcamp -> Goldman Sachs as a developer. I think people greatly overestimate the value of their major (excluding those going into academics). My personal experience in finance and tech is that Finance and CS majors are the absolute worst about overvaluing their education. 2 years of work experience^ erases any "superiority" of an industry-specific major compared to an art history major (all else equal). ^ I've done a fair amount of mid-level hiring. I've told people in the past that mentioning your major in an interview after 2 years of work experience is a strong strike #1 to me. If your major is still relevant to your ability to do a job, I generally assume your recent work experience has been worthless.
    - ng12 9y ago
      I can't speak for Finance but if your CS degree isn't equivalent to ~4 years of work experience you went to a bad school.
      - lloyd-christmas 9y ago
        Some numbers: College: 30 weeks 40 hours per week 4 years = 4800 hours Work: 49 weeks 50 hours per week 2 years = 4900 hours And that's being generous at only a 50 hour work week, as well as being generous in giving a full 40 hours worth of college work. I think your comment perfectly demonstrates my point.
- nervousvarun 9y ago
  This could be tricky to quantify. What percentage of these bootcamps jobs are based in the Bay Area? Salaries are obviously "higher" there (quotes because cost of living is as well).
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- heedlessly2 9y ago
  why do people think coding bootcamps are a replacement for a CS degree? 99% of successful bootcamp grads already have a previous Bachelor's degree and use the bootcamp as a career changer.
- mikekchar 9y ago
  In my experience (having worked with several people from boot camps and obviously several people with CS degrees), boot camps are much better at attracting/selecting people who are interested in programming and the long term learning needed to be a successful programmer. University CS degrees are much better at teaching CS, and even the skills necessary to be a good programmer. If you look at CS degrees with good co-op or intern programmes, then it's not even close. My main complaint about boot camps is that they give students the impression that the 2-6 month intense boot camp is close to what they will need to be successful in their career. It's not. However, my experience has been that after boot camp it's pretty easy to reorient those people to understanding that they will need to work hard to improve for their whole career. Basically, a good boot camp graduate is very similar in skill level to a good 2nd year coop/intern student -- but then they need to study the rest of the stuff on their own. My main complaint about university programmes is actually pretty similar. People leave the programme with the idea "I know CS", sort of like how Neo knows kung fu in the Matrix. My experience has been that it's much harder to explain to new graduates that they still have a lot to learn. People with master's degrees are even harder to convince. In addition, because coop/intern sessions are poorly monitored, quite a lot of graduates are actually completely hopeless at programming. But either way, I think you can make a successful career. Sometimes you see boot camp graduates complaining, "How could I have known that" when the answer is, "Yeah, having 4 years to screw around with this stuff and do a variety of different projects really helps". Sometimes I see CS graduates say, "Wait, this complexity is completely ridiculous. Nobody can be productive in this mess" when the answer is, "Yeah, working on realistic projects has a huge benefit". I personally don't like the current generation of boot camps, mainly because of the potential to exploit the students badly. However, I think there is a huge need for something like them and I'm looking forward to seeing how things evolve. Having said that, for people who know they want to be a programmer and are young/able I still recommend getting a CS degree at the moment.
learc83 9y ago
Their acceptance rate is much lower than all but the very top tier schools. Plus the students are a good bit older on average, they have more work experience, and most of them already have degrees.
vkou 9y ago
Most universities teach something besides tech. I assure you, a bootcamp for European medieval history will not produce average salaries of $73,000.
- heedlessly2 9y ago
  your logic makes no sense. That's like saying coding bootcamps don't produce chefs. Different goals for different programs.
  - vkou 9y ago
    > 58% of classroom graduates making $74,447 average seems better than most universities out there. The parent poster is comparing how successful universities are at getting their graduates well-paying jobs, compared to how successful coding bootcamps are at getting their graduates well-paying jobs. I point out that this is an unreasonable comparison. University averages are dragged down by low-earning, low-employable majors. (One may conclude that going to university for the sake of a low-wage, low-employable major is worthless. To which I will have to ask - how well do you think software engineers will be paid, if the 20 million current American college students were to switch their major to comp sci tomorrow?)
    - heedlessly2 9y ago
      the ultimate goal of college is not to be the most financially well-off. I'm not sure how you can imply that those who work in social services and teaching would be considered "worthless". Your argument and the other poster's both are making incongruent comparisons.
brudgers 9y ago
A general practice of many coding bootcamps is making admissions selections in part based on the likelihood of career (as opposed to academic) success. There is a degree of "would I like to have a beer with this person" in the application process which is absent from traditional academic institutions like 'Old State U.' One of the operating models of bootcamps is as a recruiter for tech companies. In addition to tuition from students, the bootcamp receives a fee from employers when graduates are hired. This provides incentives bootcamps to encourage students to take jobs as apprentices. And whether a student has the financial resources to take on an apprentice role can also factor into admission selection.
- pbecotte 9y ago
  I have hired or at least interviewed directly from several bootcamps in NYC, including the Flatiron school, and was never asked to pay a referral or acquisition fee.
  - karn09 9y ago
    Fullstack Academy has a fee for hiring grads, but only if the company attended hiring day and the offer was a result of that attendance.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

arkades 9y ago

Is it better than a university CS degree?

jcwayne 9y ago
After accounting for the difference in cost and time required, quite possibly.
- lloyd-christmas 9y ago
  From my experience, boot camps are more frequently a supplement rather than a replacement to college education.
- learc83 9y ago
  They have a much lower acceptance rate than the vast majority of CS programs. You'd need to compare them to Stanford, MIT, Harvard, Berkeley etc...
  - Dtrane 9y ago
    Being intellectually honest, I'd have to say that they aren't really comparable. The low acceptance rate is true, but the sheer amount of completely unacceptable applications that are filled out after seeing one of these "make 75k in 3 months" ads contributes heavily to the percentage. I attended this school and while most of my classmates were highly-intelligent people of diverse backgrounds, I can absolutely say it is much easier to get into Flatiron school than any of the programs listed above.
    - sleigh-bells 9y ago
      I've heard that many people who don't know any coding at all often apply to bootcamps and simply just flunk the first coding assessment they get. They probably help account for much of the low admissions rate at any half decent bootcamp (that have coding assessments).
got2surf 9y ago
"Better" is tough to say - coding bootcamps are focused on getting a coding job, but university CS degrees are not (CS graduates going into other fields [like finance], research/grad school, etc). If the goal is to get a high-paying coding job as quickly as possible, bootcamps look good. Would be interesting to look at longer-term trends in a few years - career advancement, job type, management level, industry within tech, etc.
- lloyd-christmas 9y ago
  A bit of a rant since I worked in the industry: > CS graduates going into other fields [like finance] Finance is just like every other high-professional industry, they train you for what you need to know because they are invested in your success. I worked in that industry for 6 years. Most banks run a 2-3 month internal bootcamp for fresh college hires. I was a math/econ double major and sat next to an english lit major in my class. My brother was a poli-sci major and went straight from college -> bootcamp -> Goldman Sachs as a developer. I think people greatly overestimate the value of their major (excluding those going into academics). My personal experience in finance and tech is that Finance and CS majors are the absolute worst about overvaluing their education. 2 years of work experience^ erases any "superiority" of an industry-specific major compared to an art history major (all else equal). ^ I've done a fair amount of mid-level hiring. I've told people in the past that mentioning your major in an interview after 2 years of work experience is a strong strike #1 to me. If your major is still relevant to your ability to do a job, I generally assume your recent work experience has been worthless.
  - ng12 9y ago
    I can't speak for Finance but if your CS degree isn't equivalent to ~4 years of work experience you went to a bad school.
    - lloyd-christmas 9y ago
      Some numbers: College: 30 weeks 40 hours per week 4 years = 4800 hours Work: 49 weeks 50 hours per week 2 years = 4900 hours And that's being generous at only a 50 hour work week, as well as being generous in giving a full 40 hours worth of college work. I think your comment perfectly demonstrates my point.
nervousvarun 9y ago
This could be tricky to quantify. What percentage of these bootcamps jobs are based in the Bay Area? Salaries are obviously "higher" there (quotes because cost of living is as well).
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
heedlessly2 9y ago
why do people think coding bootcamps are a replacement for a CS degree? 99% of successful bootcamp grads already have a previous Bachelor's degree and use the bootcamp as a career changer.
mikekchar 9y ago
In my experience (having worked with several people from boot camps and obviously several people with CS degrees), boot camps are much better at attracting/selecting people who are interested in programming and the long term learning needed to be a successful programmer. University CS degrees are much better at teaching CS, and even the skills necessary to be a good programmer. If you look at CS degrees with good co-op or intern programmes, then it's not even close. My main complaint about boot camps is that they give students the impression that the 2-6 month intense boot camp is close to what they will need to be successful in their career. It's not. However, my experience has been that after boot camp it's pretty easy to reorient those people to understanding that they will need to work hard to improve for their whole career. Basically, a good boot camp graduate is very similar in skill level to a good 2nd year coop/intern student -- but then they need to study the rest of the stuff on their own. My main complaint about university programmes is actually pretty similar. People leave the programme with the idea "I know CS", sort of like how Neo knows kung fu in the Matrix. My experience has been that it's much harder to explain to new graduates that they still have a lot to learn. People with master's degrees are even harder to convince. In addition, because coop/intern sessions are poorly monitored, quite a lot of graduates are actually completely hopeless at programming. But either way, I think you can make a successful career. Sometimes you see boot camp graduates complaining, "How could I have known that" when the answer is, "Yeah, having 4 years to screw around with this stuff and do a variety of different projects really helps". Sometimes I see CS graduates say, "Wait, this complexity is completely ridiculous. Nobody can be productive in this mess" when the answer is, "Yeah, working on realistic projects has a huge benefit". I personally don't like the current generation of boot camps, mainly because of the potential to exploit the students badly. However, I think there is a huge need for something like them and I'm looking forward to seeing how things evolve. Having said that, for people who know they want to be a programmer and are young/able I still recommend getting a CS degree at the moment.

learc83 9y ago

Their acceptance rate is much lower than all but the very top tier schools. Plus the students are a good bit older on average, they have more work experience, and most of them already have degrees.

vkou 9y ago

Most universities teach something besides tech. I assure you, a bootcamp for European medieval history will not produce average salaries of $73,000.

heedlessly2 9y ago
your logic makes no sense. That's like saying coding bootcamps don't produce chefs. Different goals for different programs.
- vkou 9y ago
  > 58% of classroom graduates making $74,447 average seems better than most universities out there. The parent poster is comparing how successful universities are at getting their graduates well-paying jobs, compared to how successful coding bootcamps are at getting their graduates well-paying jobs. I point out that this is an unreasonable comparison. University averages are dragged down by low-earning, low-employable majors. (One may conclude that going to university for the sake of a low-wage, low-employable major is worthless. To which I will have to ask - how well do you think software engineers will be paid, if the 20 million current American college students were to switch their major to comp sci tomorrow?)
  - heedlessly2 9y ago
    the ultimate goal of college is not to be the most financially well-off. I'm not sure how you can imply that those who work in social services and teaching would be considered "worthless". Your argument and the other poster's both are making incongruent comparisons.

brudgers 9y ago

A general practice of many coding bootcamps is making admissions selections in part based on the likelihood of career (as opposed to academic) success. There is a degree of "would I like to have a beer with this person" in the application process which is absent from traditional academic institutions like 'Old State U.' One of the operating models of bootcamps is as a recruiter for tech companies. In addition to tuition from students, the bootcamp receives a fee from employers when graduates are hired. This provides incentives bootcamps to encourage students to take jobs as apprentices. And whether a student has the financial resources to take on an apprentice role can also factor into admission selection.

pbecotte 9y ago
I have hired or at least interviewed directly from several bootcamps in NYC, including the Flatiron school, and was never asked to pay a referral or acquisition fee.
- karn09 9y ago
  Fullstack Academy has a fee for hiring grads, but only if the company attended hiring day and the offer was a result of that attendance.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]