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These arguments against bitcoin have been the same since 2010. They seem to ignore the point of bitcoin (it is impossible to counterfeit, unlike fiat which is

These arguments against bitcoin have been the same since 2010. They seem to ignore the point of bitcoin (it is impossible to counterfeit, unlike fiat which is counterfeited as a matter of course by the central bank to pay the federal government so it can buy bombs).... and all the features of bitcoin which are increased privacy, better control over your funds, better security, etc. At any rate, the past 7 years has shown the market accepting bitcoin and the price being driven up. People don't want to accept this fact so they call it a bubble. It bubbles a bit, sure, and there will be a bitcoin bubble-- but we're not there yet. Bitcoin is the internet of money. This isn't just a slogan. Bitcoin is a platform that provides many improvements to the existing system. But as a technology platform it is going thru the technology adoption life cycle, so was more and more people hold some, the price goes up. It will be "volatile" until it's fully distributed. So "speculating" is not bad-- it's how bitcoin gets its wide distribution. Over time as applications are built on top of the platform, the utility will come more into play. This is ok. This is the early years. Bitcoin isn't meant to replace the entire system right out of the gate.

strgrd 9y ago
Bitcoin isn't the internet of money, it is an internet for money. With this distinction in mind, it would be foolish to think that the first cryptocurrency would be the last. It took many implementations and iterations of wide area networks to arrive at the Internet Protocol we have today. While Bitcoin doesn't share the same set of problems as fiat currency, it has its own burdens, and has proven completely ineffective as a functional money system outside of speculation and fraud. The novelty of Bitcoin is supposedly its 'immutable ledger', a phrase used so frequently in defending Bitcoin, that it has become divorced from its meaning, and divorced from the reality that solutions to distributed logging existed long before Bitcoin, and many more solutions to this problem will be developed with no regard to the blockchain. Bitcoin itself will never replace anything -- cryptocurrencies will remain monolithic in purpose and function for a very long time. The underlying ideas to the Bitcoin protocol will be iterated on, and we'll see these ideas implemented in distributed software, but to incessantly hype Bitcoin as the singular platform for cryptocurrency is to live in a bubble. pls buy litecoin
- mattbeckman 9y ago
  "pls buy litecoin" ... there's always a vested interest!
  - jackstraw14 9y ago
    Maybe at some point people will do some thinking about how their own conflicts of interest affect the hype and FUD they spread in crypto communities. pls buy iota
    - strgrd 9y ago
      I have been trying to keep track of some of the cryptocurrency idiocy on HN, but no one seems to care/get it: reddit.com/r/BoHN/
- bernadus_edwin 9y ago
  Wow. There is a twist at the end
  - wmf 9y ago
    Yeah, Litecoin is no better than Bitcoin in any fundamental way. It doesn't solve volatility, scalability, reversibility, etc.
- jondubois 9y ago
  Yes, it seems that human attention has become the ultimate luxury commodity. I think that a cryptocurrency derives a significant portion of its value from the mere fact that that a lot of people know about its existence. A lot of celebrities these days make huge sums of money in spite of being untalented. Being famous is valuable in itself. People (especially rich people) want to be loved and/or respected. The "why" doesn't actually matter. If you own a lot of something which a lot of people know about, then you will be respected. The blockchain is public. Everybody can see it. It's the ultimate instrument of vanity. In the future you'll be able to show off your wealth without the stigma associated with actually showing it off. People will be able to look you up on a popular blockchain and know that you are an influential individual. It solves a big problem that rich people have. They want to appear humble but at the same time they want other people to know that they are rich.
adventured 9y ago
> unlike fiat which is counterfeited as a matter of course by the central bank to pay the federal government so it can buy bombs While I agree with your underlying premise, you're comically off mark in your criticism. Fiat (in this case we're obviously talking about the US Dollar) is mostly counterfeited by the US Government to buy votes, pay for welfare programs, shore up hemorrhaging entitlement programs, and to pay military salaries & benefits (the vast majority of military expenditures). Bombs are a low single digital factor in the dollar debasement party from the last ~45 years. The US budget deficit is approaching such a permanently large scale in non-recession years, that you could wipe out the entire US military and not balance the budget, while still running a real deficit on needed spending for things like infrastructure, Social Security, healthcare, et al. Bomb (weapons) expenditures are near the bottom of financial concerns. The US has a massive, system-wide cost imbalance on nearly everything (all entitlement programs, all healthcare programs, all infrastructure programs, all education). In government we spend more and get less, on basically everything vs other developed nations. Want to slash $300 billion out of the military? Ok. In ten years, we'll still have a $600+ billion perpetual budget deficit just due to ballooning entitlement programs alone (and about $27-$30 trillion in public debt at that point, most of which didn't come from bombs either).
- tootie 9y ago
  If you're talking about debt in nominal terms and equating money supply with debasement in the absence of actual inflation, then you are talking rot. The fact that we can finance massive amounts of debt when needed and easily recover (see WWII) is a testament to incredible dependability of fiat currency.
amyjess 9y ago
> it is impossible to counterfeit, unlike fiat which is counterfeited as a matter of course by the central bank to pay the federal government so it can buy bombs And it's inflammatory rhetoric filled with hyperbole and straight-up falsehoods like this that puts the bulk of the population off of Bitcoin. > and all the features of bitcoin which are increased privacy, better control over your funds, better security, etc. The history of the Bitcoin community, so far, can best be described as "libertarians learn step-by-step why financial regulations are necessary". The boom-bust cycle, exchanges closing down and running away with their customers' money, etc., are things that modern financial regulations exist to prevent (or at least should; see how the repeal of Glass-Steagall led to the 2008 Financial Crisis). With a few exceptions, the financial system regulated these problems away in the 1930s. There's no fraud protection with Bitcoin, either. If you pay Bitcoin for something and the seller takes the money and runs without shipping your product, you're screwed. With a credit card, I can call my bank and have them execute a chargeback. I think what we're going to find is that privacy is incompatible with stability or consumer protection, and when push comes to shove, the general population is going to side with stability and consumer protection. And just wait until every last Bitcoin has been mined and the supply will never again grow with the population. The Bitcoin community will learn why hyperdeflation is bad. And that's assuming the federal government doesn't just ban Bitcoin and call it drug paraphernalia as an excuse.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
santoshalper 9y ago
You're a true believer and I respect that, but I think Bitcoin has many serious downsides that will only get worse the more value is stored there. It has been demonstrated to be preposterously easy to steal. The privacy angle is a double-edged sword, and won't appeal to many people anyway. I would argue Bitcoin (and blockchain in general) is the Linux of currency. It may have a major impact on the backend (lots of things may be built on blockchain one day). But to regular people, not true believers, the interest level will be extremely minimal. You sound like Richard Stallman, a man I admire but think lacks perspective.

strgrd 9y ago

Bitcoin isn't the internet of money, it is an internet for money. With this distinction in mind, it would be foolish to think that the first cryptocurrency would be the last. It took many implementations and iterations of wide area networks to arrive at the Internet Protocol we have today. While Bitcoin doesn't share the same set of problems as fiat currency, it has its own burdens, and has proven completely ineffective as a functional money system outside of speculation and fraud. The novelty of Bitcoin is supposedly its 'immutable ledger', a phrase used so frequently in defending Bitcoin, that it has become divorced from its meaning, and divorced from the reality that solutions to distributed logging existed long before Bitcoin, and many more solutions to this problem will be developed with no regard to the blockchain. Bitcoin itself will never replace anything -- cryptocurrencies will remain monolithic in purpose and function for a very long time. The underlying ideas to the Bitcoin protocol will be iterated on, and we'll see these ideas implemented in distributed software, but to incessantly hype Bitcoin as the singular platform for cryptocurrency is to live in a bubble. pls buy litecoin

mattbeckman 9y ago
"pls buy litecoin" ... there's always a vested interest!
- jackstraw14 9y ago
  Maybe at some point people will do some thinking about how their own conflicts of interest affect the hype and FUD they spread in crypto communities. pls buy iota
  - strgrd 9y ago
    I have been trying to keep track of some of the cryptocurrency idiocy on HN, but no one seems to care/get it: reddit.com/r/BoHN/
bernadus_edwin 9y ago
Wow. There is a twist at the end
- wmf 9y ago
  Yeah, Litecoin is no better than Bitcoin in any fundamental way. It doesn't solve volatility, scalability, reversibility, etc.
jondubois 9y ago
Yes, it seems that human attention has become the ultimate luxury commodity. I think that a cryptocurrency derives a significant portion of its value from the mere fact that that a lot of people know about its existence. A lot of celebrities these days make huge sums of money in spite of being untalented. Being famous is valuable in itself. People (especially rich people) want to be loved and/or respected. The "why" doesn't actually matter. If you own a lot of something which a lot of people know about, then you will be respected. The blockchain is public. Everybody can see it. It's the ultimate instrument of vanity. In the future you'll be able to show off your wealth without the stigma associated with actually showing it off. People will be able to look you up on a popular blockchain and know that you are an influential individual. It solves a big problem that rich people have. They want to appear humble but at the same time they want other people to know that they are rich.

adventured 9y ago

> unlike fiat which is counterfeited as a matter of course by the central bank to pay the federal government so it can buy bombs While I agree with your underlying premise, you're comically off mark in your criticism. Fiat (in this case we're obviously talking about the US Dollar) is mostly counterfeited by the US Government to buy votes, pay for welfare programs, shore up hemorrhaging entitlement programs, and to pay military salaries & benefits (the vast majority of military expenditures). Bombs are a low single digital factor in the dollar debasement party from the last ~45 years. The US budget deficit is approaching such a permanently large scale in non-recession years, that you could wipe out the entire US military and not balance the budget, while still running a real deficit on needed spending for things like infrastructure, Social Security, healthcare, et al. Bomb (weapons) expenditures are near the bottom of financial concerns. The US has a massive, system-wide cost imbalance on nearly everything (all entitlement programs, all healthcare programs, all infrastructure programs, all education). In government we spend more and get less, on basically everything vs other developed nations. Want to slash $300 billion out of the military? Ok. In ten years, we'll still have a $600+ billion perpetual budget deficit just due to ballooning entitlement programs alone (and about $27-$30 trillion in public debt at that point, most of which didn't come from bombs either).

tootie 9y ago
If you're talking about debt in nominal terms and equating money supply with debasement in the absence of actual inflation, then you are talking rot. The fact that we can finance massive amounts of debt when needed and easily recover (see WWII) is a testament to incredible dependability of fiat currency.

amyjess 9y ago

> it is impossible to counterfeit, unlike fiat which is counterfeited as a matter of course by the central bank to pay the federal government so it can buy bombs And it's inflammatory rhetoric filled with hyperbole and straight-up falsehoods like this that puts the bulk of the population off of Bitcoin. > and all the features of bitcoin which are increased privacy, better control over your funds, better security, etc. The history of the Bitcoin community, so far, can best be described as "libertarians learn step-by-step why financial regulations are necessary". The boom-bust cycle, exchanges closing down and running away with their customers' money, etc., are things that modern financial regulations exist to prevent (or at least should; see how the repeal of Glass-Steagall led to the 2008 Financial Crisis). With a few exceptions, the financial system regulated these problems away in the 1930s. There's no fraud protection with Bitcoin, either. If you pay Bitcoin for something and the seller takes the money and runs without shipping your product, you're screwed. With a credit card, I can call my bank and have them execute a chargeback. I think what we're going to find is that privacy is incompatible with stability or consumer protection, and when push comes to shove, the general population is going to side with stability and consumer protection. And just wait until every last Bitcoin has been mined and the supply will never again grow with the population. The Bitcoin community will learn why hyperdeflation is bad. And that's assuming the federal government doesn't just ban Bitcoin and call it drug paraphernalia as an excuse.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

santoshalper 9y ago

You're a true believer and I respect that, but I think Bitcoin has many serious downsides that will only get worse the more value is stored there. It has been demonstrated to be preposterously easy to steal. The privacy angle is a double-edged sword, and won't appeal to many people anyway. I would argue Bitcoin (and blockchain in general) is the Linux of currency. It may have a major impact on the backend (lots of things may be built on blockchain one day). But to regular people, not true believers, the interest level will be extremely minimal. You sound like Richard Stallman, a man I admire but think lacks perspective.