4 ms·

Other than in mathematics (broadly interpreted), there is no definitive proof. There are just different degrees of confidence. Even though Uber has been saying

Other than in mathematics (broadly interpreted), there is no definitive proof. There are just different degrees of confidence. Even though Uber has been saying that they are improving urban transportation, I have always been skeptical. As new substitutes are introduced to mass transit - mass transit use should decline. If those new substitutes are heavily subsidized by VCs, mass transit will decline more.

smsm42 9y ago
> Even though Uber has been saying that they are improving urban transportation Note here that there are other dimensions of improving, not expressed in VMT. Such as convenience, availability, time to get to certain point, ability to perform certain tasks (e.g. compare traveling with two huge suitcases to/from an airport in public transport with two transfers and in a ride service car), etc. So when talking about improving, I don't think VMT is really a good criterion.
- jdavis703 9y ago
  Personal convenience isn't the only definition of what makes transportation better. There's all kinds of negative externalities automobiles generate, from traffic backups, to gaseous emissions, to taking up space that could be used by transportation modes with lighter footprints such as bikes. Not increasing VMT is very important to making cities perform more efficiently, with a lighter footprint.
  - smsm42 9y ago
    > Personal convenience isn't the only definition of what makes transportation better. But this is the only one that would be taken into account by a person when deciding which transportation mode to use. If you don't take it into account, you're making the stats better, but the lives of people worse.
    - Nursie 9y ago
      Not the only one, surely? Cost factors in, and some folks make choices based on what they think might be best for longer than "right now"
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- untog 9y ago
  Those are all important aspects, but it's also important to factor in accessibility (in the monetary sense, not physical - although that as well!), because that's one of the main reasons for public transit to exist. Yes, Uber and Lyft will provide better opportunities for transporting two large suitcases across town. But at what cost to the person who needs an affordable journey to work? Neither can come close to replicating the cost of urban transit services in a great many situations. And if they're contributing towards traffic that is actively harming performance of public transit, it's worth discussing.
  - ZanyProgrammer 9y ago
    But most people don't bring luggage to work. It is doable with (ugh, they really do impact transit usage) multiple bus/light rail transfers to work without luggage. And good luck getting transit to get you to the airport at 0500 on a Saturday morning.
    - smsm42 9y ago
      There's not only luggage. There are groceries. There are other purchases. There's just a strain of standing on your feet for an hour, which may not be easy for someone who is not in the peak physical condition.
      - isostatic 9y ago
        Standing up for an hour does not require a "peak of physical fitness"!!! It's probably a good thing to do - that's why standing desks are so popular.
        untog 9y ago
        Standing for an hour is absolutely not something you can expect of the general population, especially the elderly.
        smileysteve 9y ago
madeofpalk 9y ago
I mean, what does "improving urban transportation" actually mean?
imranq 9y ago
As an aside, even in mathematics some proofs can be turn out to be wrong. Like the many wrong proofs for Fermats last theorem even Wiles' original proof. Basically there is some level of uncertainty , e>0 for any statement.

smsm42 9y ago

> Even though Uber has been saying that they are improving urban transportation Note here that there are other dimensions of improving, not expressed in VMT. Such as convenience, availability, time to get to certain point, ability to perform certain tasks (e.g. compare traveling with two huge suitcases to/from an airport in public transport with two transfers and in a ride service car), etc. So when talking about improving, I don't think VMT is really a good criterion.

jdavis703 9y ago
Personal convenience isn't the only definition of what makes transportation better. There's all kinds of negative externalities automobiles generate, from traffic backups, to gaseous emissions, to taking up space that could be used by transportation modes with lighter footprints such as bikes. Not increasing VMT is very important to making cities perform more efficiently, with a lighter footprint.
- smsm42 9y ago
  > Personal convenience isn't the only definition of what makes transportation better. But this is the only one that would be taken into account by a person when deciding which transportation mode to use. If you don't take it into account, you're making the stats better, but the lives of people worse.
  - Nursie 9y ago
    Not the only one, surely? Cost factors in, and some folks make choices based on what they think might be best for longer than "right now"
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
untog 9y ago
Those are all important aspects, but it's also important to factor in accessibility (in the monetary sense, not physical - although that as well!), because that's one of the main reasons for public transit to exist. Yes, Uber and Lyft will provide better opportunities for transporting two large suitcases across town. But at what cost to the person who needs an affordable journey to work? Neither can come close to replicating the cost of urban transit services in a great many situations. And if they're contributing towards traffic that is actively harming performance of public transit, it's worth discussing.
- ZanyProgrammer 9y ago
  But most people don't bring luggage to work. It is doable with (ugh, they really do impact transit usage) multiple bus/light rail transfers to work without luggage. And good luck getting transit to get you to the airport at 0500 on a Saturday morning.
  - smsm42 9y ago
    There's not only luggage. There are groceries. There are other purchases. There's just a strain of standing on your feet for an hour, which may not be easy for someone who is not in the peak physical condition.
    - isostatic 9y ago
      Standing up for an hour does not require a "peak of physical fitness"!!! It's probably a good thing to do - that's why standing desks are so popular.
      - untog 9y ago
        Standing for an hour is absolutely not something you can expect of the general population, especially the elderly.
        smileysteve 9y ago

madeofpalk 9y ago

I mean, what does "improving urban transportation" actually mean?

imranq 9y ago

As an aside, even in mathematics some proofs can be turn out to be wrong. Like the many wrong proofs for Fermats last theorem even Wiles' original proof. Basically there is some level of uncertainty , e>0 for any statement.