5 ms·

Gee, it's almost like people only use public transportation when it's reliable, cost-effective, and efficient.

by ng12 9y ago

harigov 9y ago
This is one industry where "build it and they will come" will most probably hold true. Especially in dense areas.
yjftsjthsd-h 9y ago
> efficient Specifically, it should be efficient and preferably fast for me, not just in aggregate
- pas 9y ago
  It can be fast for everyone else, because then you'll have all those empty roads for yourself.
- __s 9y ago
  This can be represented by placing emphasis in 95th percentile stats, similar to how sites should analyse 95th percentile request handling
warent 9y ago
Not to mention safe and clean. In bigger cities, public transportation can put you in physical danger and have you walking out smelling worse than Theon Greyjoy
- jdavis703 9y ago
  More people die in automobile crashes than from train crashes and crimes in public transit systems.
  - tradersam 9y ago
    This doesn't mean anything. Although many more die from automobile crashes doesn't make using public transportation in some major cities inherently dangerous or unpleasant - even unhealthy.
    - stuaxo 9y ago
      Being on a busy road surrounded by cars all burning petrol is not exactly a healthy place to be either. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35504768 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35504768
      - tradersam 9y ago
        At least I rarely have to fear for my life while driving through a bad part of town, which is definitely not the case while using public transportation or walking. Which is my main point, health was a side note.
        blueline 9y ago
        >I rarely have to fear for my life while driving through a >bad part of town >which is definitely not the case while using public >transportation Source? Are you sure that this perceived difference in safety in 'the bad part of town' is not completely in your mind? thousands of people take public transit through 'the bad parts of town' in places like Chicago and NYC every day and they (relatively speaking) don't have to fear for their lives either.
        tradersam 9y ago
        I understand this is purely anecdotal, but every time I'm driven through Compton, I've never had a problem. Almost every time I have to walk down Central, even to grab a drink from the gas station, someone see's me, a smaller white guy, and it always ends with me waving my Kershaw. Also the reason why I moved down to Orange County, yet I still somehow landed in one of the worst neighborhoods in Anaheim.
      - kaybe 9y ago
  - YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 9y ago
    Yes, but that doesn't actually prove anything about the safety aspects of switching from public transit to a taxi-like service. The comparison would have to be made like-for-like trips. However, the risks for both are quite small, and that's why the quite big gap in convenience dominates the equation, anyway.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    The statistics don’t really tell that story. Getting mugged in a station doesn’t typically kill you, and you’re not travelling, so those stats won’t be counted. If there was an “incidents per mile travelled”, metric for my trip during daylight hours that would be one thing. But there isn’t any such statistic. It’s almost certainly cheaper, safer, more time efficient and dramatically more convenient to take a car. In my personal, typical case, I live and work in the same city. Drive/bike/bus/walk time is 10/25/45/90 minutes, respectively. Cost if daily commute assuming IRS costs is about 20% more for driving, but with shorter more predictable and more flexible trips.
    - jdavis703 9y ago
      > The statistics don’t really tell that story. > In my personal, typical case They may not tell that story in this particular case, but unless something is wrong with the way with the statistics are gathered, it does present a better top-level picture than personal anecdotes. (While personal anecdotes can also be useful in understanding how to design around edge cases, but are not useful when figuring out the best way to design a system).
      - Spooky23 9y ago
        Highway safety statistics have significant limitations with respect to fine grain detail and data collection capability. Any datasource that uses police data must account for jurisdictional differences in data collection as well. Nothing is wrong with the statistics, it's how you use them. It's just difficult to meaningfully say that it's safer to take the bus from point A to point B using statistics that are generalized over time and geography. For example, 30% of motor vehicle fatalities are alcohol related, and the vast majority of those fatalities take place after most people are done commuting for the day. Uber probably has a significant impact on preserving human life, after dark. The purpose of the anecdote is to illustrate how those stats relate to decision making and risk/reward management by the travelling public. Am I at more risk driving three exits down the highway vs. crossing a busy avenue, sitting at a bus stop, riding a bus, crossing three other busy streets? I don't know -- and those statistics that you are citing don't answer that question. My guess is that I'm safer in my late-model car in a typical automobile accident than in any traffic or crime incident in the bus case.
pmichaud 9y ago
I stopped using the BART recently because it's dangerous. Several people I know personally have been held up at gunpoint on the BART, or in the station. That's not counting the various news reports, like one [1]. I'll go back when it's safe, but not before then. [1]: http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/BART-takeover-robbery-50-to-60-teens-swarm-11094745.php http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/BART-takeover-robbery-50...
- ggggvg 9y ago
  What third-world country do you live in that has such unsafe public transport?
  - banned1 9y ago
    San Francisco
- banned1 9y ago
  Unfortunately many of these crimes will go unsolved because BART refuses to release videos. Apparently, releasing the videos “could lead to stereotypes” https://www.google.com/amp/sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/07/09/bart-withholding-surveillance-videos-of-crime-to-avoid-stereotypes/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/07...
  - snowmaker 9y ago
    BART doesn't release the videos to the public. They do release them to the police. There are legitimate reasons not to release them to the public, including the fact that the media will sensationalize them to make BART look far more dangerous than the statistics actually reflect.
    - banned1 9y ago
      Replace [BART] with Police and [police] with [congress]: "The Police doesn't release the videos to the public. They do release them to Congress. There are legitimate reasons not to release them to the public, including the fact that the media will sensationalize them to make the Police look far more dangerous than the statistics actually reflect." Would you still want videos withheld from the public? After all, BART is a public agency. We are not babies who need to be protected by The Master Director because we are "the lowly citizen." That's not how it works in America.
Spivak 9y ago
Or if we're a little more honest public transportation is an Inferior Good [1] that people stop using as soon as they have the means to. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferior_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferior_good
- dgacmu 9y ago
  Not when it works well. I live about a mile from work. My kid goes to school perhaps 2mi from home. Mass transit has made it very easy for my family of three to downsize to one car. (We are not means-limited. It's fantastic to not have the extra crap to deal with from a second car.) When there's a thunderstorm or excessive ice, or I need to get home faster for whatever reason, the bus is great. But: I happen to live right off of a major bus corridor, so there's a bus every five minutes or so. We use Lyft to fill in the gaps if something comes up that requires both adults to drive somewhere. Mass transit plus a little bit of easily-available ride sharing _can_ be significantly better than car ownership. But...
- ghaff 9y ago
  It is an inferior good in that usage decreases as income rises. But in some locations, mass transit (especially subway) can be a pretty good alternative to congested surface streets--especially outside of rush hour, not carrying luggage/groceries/etc.

Gee, it's almost like people only use public transportation when it's reliable, cost-effective, and efficient.

by ng12 9y ago

Gee, it's almost like people only use public transportation when it's reliable, cost-effective, and efficient.

harigov 9y ago

This is one industry where "build it and they will come" will most probably hold true. Especially in dense areas.

yjftsjthsd-h 9y ago

> efficient Specifically, it should be efficient and preferably fast for me, not just in aggregate

pas 9y ago
It can be fast for everyone else, because then you'll have all those empty roads for yourself.
__s 9y ago
This can be represented by placing emphasis in 95th percentile stats, similar to how sites should analyse 95th percentile request handling

warent 9y ago

Not to mention safe and clean. In bigger cities, public transportation can put you in physical danger and have you walking out smelling worse than Theon Greyjoy

jdavis703 9y ago
More people die in automobile crashes than from train crashes and crimes in public transit systems.
- tradersam 9y ago
  This doesn't mean anything. Although many more die from automobile crashes doesn't make using public transportation in some major cities inherently dangerous or unpleasant - even unhealthy.
  - stuaxo 9y ago
    Being on a busy road surrounded by cars all burning petrol is not exactly a healthy place to be either. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35504768 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35504768
    - tradersam 9y ago
      At least I rarely have to fear for my life while driving through a bad part of town, which is definitely not the case while using public transportation or walking. Which is my main point, health was a side note.
      - blueline 9y ago
        >I rarely have to fear for my life while driving through a >bad part of town >which is definitely not the case while using public >transportation Source? Are you sure that this perceived difference in safety in 'the bad part of town' is not completely in your mind? thousands of people take public transit through 'the bad parts of town' in places like Chicago and NYC every day and they (relatively speaking) don't have to fear for their lives either.
        tradersam 9y ago
        I understand this is purely anecdotal, but every time I'm driven through Compton, I've never had a problem. Almost every time I have to walk down Central, even to grab a drink from the gas station, someone see's me, a smaller white guy, and it always ends with me waving my Kershaw. Also the reason why I moved down to Orange County, yet I still somehow landed in one of the worst neighborhoods in Anaheim.
    - kaybe 9y ago
- YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 9y ago
  Yes, but that doesn't actually prove anything about the safety aspects of switching from public transit to a taxi-like service. The comparison would have to be made like-for-like trips. However, the risks for both are quite small, and that's why the quite big gap in convenience dominates the equation, anyway.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  The statistics don’t really tell that story. Getting mugged in a station doesn’t typically kill you, and you’re not travelling, so those stats won’t be counted. If there was an “incidents per mile travelled”, metric for my trip during daylight hours that would be one thing. But there isn’t any such statistic. It’s almost certainly cheaper, safer, more time efficient and dramatically more convenient to take a car. In my personal, typical case, I live and work in the same city. Drive/bike/bus/walk time is 10/25/45/90 minutes, respectively. Cost if daily commute assuming IRS costs is about 20% more for driving, but with shorter more predictable and more flexible trips.
  - jdavis703 9y ago
    > The statistics don’t really tell that story. > In my personal, typical case They may not tell that story in this particular case, but unless something is wrong with the way with the statistics are gathered, it does present a better top-level picture than personal anecdotes. (While personal anecdotes can also be useful in understanding how to design around edge cases, but are not useful when figuring out the best way to design a system).
    - Spooky23 9y ago
      Highway safety statistics have significant limitations with respect to fine grain detail and data collection capability. Any datasource that uses police data must account for jurisdictional differences in data collection as well. Nothing is wrong with the statistics, it's how you use them. It's just difficult to meaningfully say that it's safer to take the bus from point A to point B using statistics that are generalized over time and geography. For example, 30% of motor vehicle fatalities are alcohol related, and the vast majority of those fatalities take place after most people are done commuting for the day. Uber probably has a significant impact on preserving human life, after dark. The purpose of the anecdote is to illustrate how those stats relate to decision making and risk/reward management by the travelling public. Am I at more risk driving three exits down the highway vs. crossing a busy avenue, sitting at a bus stop, riding a bus, crossing three other busy streets? I don't know -- and those statistics that you are citing don't answer that question. My guess is that I'm safer in my late-model car in a typical automobile accident than in any traffic or crime incident in the bus case.

pmichaud 9y ago

I stopped using the BART recently because it's dangerous. Several people I know personally have been held up at gunpoint on the BART, or in the station. That's not counting the various news reports, like one [1]. I'll go back when it's safe, but not before then. [1]: http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/BART-takeover-robbery-50-to-60-teens-swarm-11094745.php http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/BART-takeover-robbery-50...

ggggvg 9y ago
What third-world country do you live in that has such unsafe public transport?
- banned1 9y ago
  San Francisco
banned1 9y ago
Unfortunately many of these crimes will go unsolved because BART refuses to release videos. Apparently, releasing the videos “could lead to stereotypes” https://www.google.com/amp/sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/07/09/bart-withholding-surveillance-videos-of-crime-to-avoid-stereotypes/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/07...
- snowmaker 9y ago
  BART doesn't release the videos to the public. They do release them to the police. There are legitimate reasons not to release them to the public, including the fact that the media will sensationalize them to make BART look far more dangerous than the statistics actually reflect.
  - banned1 9y ago
    Replace [BART] with Police and [police] with [congress]: "The Police doesn't release the videos to the public. They do release them to Congress. There are legitimate reasons not to release them to the public, including the fact that the media will sensationalize them to make the Police look far more dangerous than the statistics actually reflect." Would you still want videos withheld from the public? After all, BART is a public agency. We are not babies who need to be protected by The Master Director because we are "the lowly citizen." That's not how it works in America.

Spivak 9y ago

Or if we're a little more honest public transportation is an Inferior Good [1] that people stop using as soon as they have the means to. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferior_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferior_good

dgacmu 9y ago
Not when it works well. I live about a mile from work. My kid goes to school perhaps 2mi from home. Mass transit has made it very easy for my family of three to downsize to one car. (We are not means-limited. It's fantastic to not have the extra crap to deal with from a second car.) When there's a thunderstorm or excessive ice, or I need to get home faster for whatever reason, the bus is great. But: I happen to live right off of a major bus corridor, so there's a bus every five minutes or so. We use Lyft to fill in the gaps if something comes up that requires both adults to drive somewhere. Mass transit plus a little bit of easily-available ride sharing _can_ be significantly better than car ownership. But...
ghaff 9y ago
It is an inferior good in that usage decreases as income rises. But in some locations, mass transit (especially subway) can be a pretty good alternative to congested surface streets--especially outside of rush hour, not carrying luggage/groceries/etc.