4 ms·

I totally agree with the broader point. I recently traveled to China for the first time, and was amazed by how far out of line my preconceived notions were. I t

by lstyls 9y ago

I totally agree with the broader point. I recently traveled to China for the first time, and was amazed by how far out of line my preconceived notions were. I think it's a mental block that keeps the West from learning from Chinese innovation. That said, Chinese academia has a massive credibility problem for a good reason. I know a PhD working in materials science and organic chemistry, and after being burned multiple times by unreproducible papers that PhD doesn't even bother to spend time trying out methods reported by Chinese researchers. Yes, this is anecdotal but it correlates strongly with the wider reporting on the issue. I'm sure there are many good researchers in China - part of the problem is that their work won't be disseminated because it will be written off.

timthelion 9y ago
I think it is possible that the Chinese actually want to be disregarded. They know that intelectual property rights laws are useless in the international arena, but what if they could inovate and have their inventions not copied because no one beleived them?
- pishpash 9y ago
  "Keep a low profile and cultivate thyself quietly."
- visarga 9y ago
  I think China will be quite good at applying existing methods or creating derivative works (despite the frauds) and ultimately that's what matters. Most applications in AI rely on simple systems, only a small part of them require cutting edge architectures or ideas.
  - timthelion 9y ago
    Wait, are you talking about China or AI?
    - visarga 9y ago
      Talking about benefitting and application of AI in China.
      - timthelion 9y ago
        My point was, that people are always saying the same thing about China and AI. "They might have solved this problem, but they will never be truely creative."
- hetspookjee 9y ago
  I do not understand how that is, even remotely, a plausible explanation for the fraud scandals. It makes me think of this comic http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-was-only-pretending-to-be-retarded http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-was-only-pretending-to-be-re... Despite IP laws being useless in the international arena it's not too far fetched that even the Chinese, despite being so large, are aided by the whole global scientific community reviewing and replicating their results. It makes progress all that much faster and easier.
- sunir 9y ago
  Sure it could be a giant conspiracy... Or it simply could be corruption.
xux 9y ago
Regardless of what you think of China, you can't deny its competence and growing influence. This simple chart from Google says it all: https://i.imgur.com/T88SqnA.png https://i.imgur.com/T88SqnA.png
- brianwawok 9y ago
  Like all stats, it is easy to cherry pick. I find this graph is a better representation of the current state of the world https://imgur.com/a/oyPzT https://imgur.com/a/oyPzT Puts things in perspective I think a bit better
  - xux 9y ago
    We're talking about a country's influence, and per cap stats are completely unrelated to the total sum of influence Stats like the one you posted do offer some psychological relief though
- adventured 9y ago
  I prefer the chart of Japan's GDP. Didn't you hear? They conquered the world, their influence was undeniable. Their competence was feared across the globe. By 1988 Japan had surpassed the US in GDP per capita. The US is now ~53% ahead. That's no discredit to Japan, they're a very advanced industrial nation. The US simply happens to be the greatest economic train in history, one that has rarely stopped expanding in the last two centuries. Maybe China will manage a century of mostly unbroken growth. We'll see what they do now that the easy growth - filling in their vast economic slack and correcting particularly extreme inefficiencies - has long since ended (which is why they took on tens of trillions in debt post 2007).
Consultant32452 9y ago
I think the West has more credibility than it deserves when 90% of published science articles aren't reproducible. https://www.jove.com/blog/2012/05/03/studies-show-only-10-of-published-science-articles-are-reproducible-what-is-happening/ https://www.jove.com/blog/2012/05/03/studies-show-only-10-of...
- lstyls 9y ago
  Thus is very domain dependant. Methods papers in organic synthesis _need_ to be reproducible because it is likely others will use the published results when performing synthesis. This is very different than a field like behavioral psychology.
briandear 9y ago
However when public hospitals actually have a TCM department, it's hard to take them very seriously, at least in medical science. Actual medical science is referred to as "Western" medicine. Zuo Yue Zi (坐月子) -- the list of rules Chinese women must follow after giving birth, for example, is about the most absurd "medical" practice I've ever witnessed. Yet there are highly educated Chinese people that actually believe that stuff. I lived in China for over 3 years, in Korea a few years prior to that, and while the culture has a rich history and it's a fascinating and generally friendly place, we're talking about people who are often one generation from living like it is still the 18th century. A place where black rhino horn has medicinal properties despite chemically being identical to my toenails and eating dog imparts sexual prowess, especially when the dog is beaten to death. These aren't niche beliefs, these are pretty mainstream attitudes, though it's definitely changing with the younger crowd. The Cultural Revolution certainly didn't help -- essentially created a generation of people fearful of too much independent thinking. In 1965, there were over 400 technical journals in China. In 1969 -- 20. You also have the very real problem of the government setting research agendas. It's not far from Lysenkoism. In fact, Lysenko contributed substantially to the 1959-61 famine that killed 30 million Chinese. Chinese research, in my experience, has rarely been field-leading. It's generally derivative, rarely novel -- or at least if it is novel, it is rarely repeatable. There are a few exceptions, but compared to US, Korea, British, Japanese, German innovation, they aren't even close.

by lstyls 9y ago

timthelion 9y ago

I think it is possible that the Chinese actually want to be disregarded. They know that intelectual property rights laws are useless in the international arena, but what if they could inovate and have their inventions not copied because no one beleived them?

pishpash 9y ago
"Keep a low profile and cultivate thyself quietly."
visarga 9y ago
I think China will be quite good at applying existing methods or creating derivative works (despite the frauds) and ultimately that's what matters. Most applications in AI rely on simple systems, only a small part of them require cutting edge architectures or ideas.
- timthelion 9y ago
  Wait, are you talking about China or AI?
  - visarga 9y ago
    Talking about benefitting and application of AI in China.
    - timthelion 9y ago
      My point was, that people are always saying the same thing about China and AI. "They might have solved this problem, but they will never be truely creative."
hetspookjee 9y ago
I do not understand how that is, even remotely, a plausible explanation for the fraud scandals. It makes me think of this comic http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-was-only-pretending-to-be-retarded http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-was-only-pretending-to-be-re... Despite IP laws being useless in the international arena it's not too far fetched that even the Chinese, despite being so large, are aided by the whole global scientific community reviewing and replicating their results. It makes progress all that much faster and easier.
sunir 9y ago
Sure it could be a giant conspiracy... Or it simply could be corruption.

xux 9y ago

Regardless of what you think of China, you can't deny its competence and growing influence. This simple chart from Google says it all: https://i.imgur.com/T88SqnA.png https://i.imgur.com/T88SqnA.png

brianwawok 9y ago
Like all stats, it is easy to cherry pick. I find this graph is a better representation of the current state of the world https://imgur.com/a/oyPzT https://imgur.com/a/oyPzT Puts things in perspective I think a bit better
- xux 9y ago
  We're talking about a country's influence, and per cap stats are completely unrelated to the total sum of influence Stats like the one you posted do offer some psychological relief though
adventured 9y ago
I prefer the chart of Japan's GDP. Didn't you hear? They conquered the world, their influence was undeniable. Their competence was feared across the globe. By 1988 Japan had surpassed the US in GDP per capita. The US is now ~53% ahead. That's no discredit to Japan, they're a very advanced industrial nation. The US simply happens to be the greatest economic train in history, one that has rarely stopped expanding in the last two centuries. Maybe China will manage a century of mostly unbroken growth. We'll see what they do now that the easy growth - filling in their vast economic slack and correcting particularly extreme inefficiencies - has long since ended (which is why they took on tens of trillions in debt post 2007).

Consultant32452 9y ago

I think the West has more credibility than it deserves when 90% of published science articles aren't reproducible. https://www.jove.com/blog/2012/05/03/studies-show-only-10-of-published-science-articles-are-reproducible-what-is-happening/ https://www.jove.com/blog/2012/05/03/studies-show-only-10-of...

lstyls 9y ago
Thus is very domain dependant. Methods papers in organic synthesis _need_ to be reproducible because it is likely others will use the published results when performing synthesis. This is very different than a field like behavioral psychology.

briandear 9y ago

However when public hospitals actually have a TCM department, it's hard to take them very seriously, at least in medical science. Actual medical science is referred to as "Western" medicine. Zuo Yue Zi (坐月子) -- the list of rules Chinese women must follow after giving birth, for example, is about the most absurd "medical" practice I've ever witnessed. Yet there are highly educated Chinese people that actually believe that stuff. I lived in China for over 3 years, in Korea a few years prior to that, and while the culture has a rich history and it's a fascinating and generally friendly place, we're talking about people who are often one generation from living like it is still the 18th century. A place where black rhino horn has medicinal properties despite chemically being identical to my toenails and eating dog imparts sexual prowess, especially when the dog is beaten to death. These aren't niche beliefs, these are pretty mainstream attitudes, though it's definitely changing with the younger crowd. The Cultural Revolution certainly didn't help -- essentially created a generation of people fearful of too much independent thinking. In 1965, there were over 400 technical journals in China. In 1969 -- 20. You also have the very real problem of the government setting research agendas. It's not far from Lysenkoism. In fact, Lysenko contributed substantially to the 1959-61 famine that killed 30 million Chinese. Chinese research, in my experience, has rarely been field-leading. It's generally derivative, rarely novel -- or at least if it is novel, it is rarely repeatable. There are a few exceptions, but compared to US, Korea, British, Japanese, German innovation, they aren't even close.