7 ms·

I have yet to see a single wholly positive article in western media about Chinese innovation. I feel that we on the west are plugging our ears and going nananan

I have yet to see a single wholly positive article in western media about Chinese innovation. I feel that we on the west are plugging our ears and going nanananana, rather than facing up to the fact that we have a really competent new super power on our hands. China is evil, they are exploiting 3rd world mineral reserves in the most unjust and environmentally destructive manner possible. Their democracy is even more of a joke than that of the US. But they aren't stupid or incompetent, and how well the west trusts their scientific results means nothing to nobody. We should stop trying to convince ourselves that China is failing and start trying to understand what it means to have a non-democratic sci-fi dystopia in charge of the world and how we can escape that totalitarian fate.

rhizome 9y ago
The US is so far down a hole that its identity now rests on denigrating others, casting itself as the big crab in the bucket.
- sampo 9y ago
  These days, Americans are busy denigrating other Americans. I wonder how much attention they have left for denigrating China.
lstyls 9y ago
I totally agree with the broader point. I recently traveled to China for the first time, and was amazed by how far out of line my preconceived notions were. I think it's a mental block that keeps the West from learning from Chinese innovation. That said, Chinese academia has a massive credibility problem for a good reason. I know a PhD working in materials science and organic chemistry, and after being burned multiple times by unreproducible papers that PhD doesn't even bother to spend time trying out methods reported by Chinese researchers. Yes, this is anecdotal but it correlates strongly with the wider reporting on the issue. I'm sure there are many good researchers in China - part of the problem is that their work won't be disseminated because it will be written off.
- timthelion 9y ago
  I think it is possible that the Chinese actually want to be disregarded. They know that intelectual property rights laws are useless in the international arena, but what if they could inovate and have their inventions not copied because no one beleived them?
  - pishpash 9y ago
    "Keep a low profile and cultivate thyself quietly."
  - visarga 9y ago
    I think China will be quite good at applying existing methods or creating derivative works (despite the frauds) and ultimately that's what matters. Most applications in AI rely on simple systems, only a small part of them require cutting edge architectures or ideas.
    - timthelion 9y ago
      Wait, are you talking about China or AI?
      - visarga 9y ago
        Talking about benefitting and application of AI in China.
        timthelion 9y ago
        My point was, that people are always saying the same thing about China and AI. "They might have solved this problem, but they will never be truely creative."
  - hetspookjee 9y ago
    I do not understand how that is, even remotely, a plausible explanation for the fraud scandals. It makes me think of this comic http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-was-only-pretending-to-be-retarded http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-was-only-pretending-to-be-re... Despite IP laws being useless in the international arena it's not too far fetched that even the Chinese, despite being so large, are aided by the whole global scientific community reviewing and replicating their results. It makes progress all that much faster and easier.
tptacek 9y ago
Can you relate this concern back to the article, or is it orthogonal to the thread? Abstract, orthogonal concerns are often easier to discuss than the particulars of the articles we're talking about. Anyone can have an opinion about the relative merits of "superpowers", whether or not they've read the article. So even when the root orthogonal comment is well-intentioned and informed, the subsequent comments may not be, and will end up crowding out informed discussion. It's a frustrating recurring pattern on HN and one we'd do well to push back on. And I think all we have to do to accomplish that is to tie our abstract concerns back in some way to the actual article.
- diminish 9y ago
  "orthogonal" in this case is too strong for GP comment on OP.
  - timthelion 9y ago
    Are you saying that my comment was "not even orthogonal"? I've ready your post several times and still don't understand what you meant.
    - diminish 9y ago
      Sorry, what I mean is that your comment is quite in the right place. "Orthogonal" isn't true.
- timthelion 9y ago
  I agree with you that HN is often getting distracted by the endless cycle of "debate about nothing" in which people debate things in abstract terms pushing in abstract directions. And I see now, that my post has generated more debate about nothing and very little usefull discussion. So to the point. I don't think that international credibility is a metric that means much to China. They have never sought it. They have had a quality problem for a very long time and done nothing to improve their image in manufacturing. However, all would agree that they have become a manufacturing powerhouse. This is because it matters more that they can deliver a good to the hands of consumers than what the consumers think of the manufacturer. If they invent a way to instantaneously communicate over long distances [1] or to make meta-materials with surprising properties [2] , they can exploit these results. Whether "the West" beleives those results or not is probably not of much interest to them. Indeed, it might be in China's interest that we don't beleive in Chinese science. Perhaps, China will become a magician to us, a box which produces goods which we do not understand. An alien civlization. Would that not be in their interest? They already do medical research which the west does not have the stomach to discuss. Genetic research on live subjects and fetuses. We don't even have a framework for replicating that research and medical students in "the West" do not learn from the results. But someday rich people will fly to China and beg for their magical cures. "Oh yes. Mr. Jobs, we have nanobots that can cure your cancer. Just give us a stake in Apple." And we won't even understand the medicine, we won't consider it to be real science. We'll call it "Eastern medicine". But it will work. And people will pay their life savings for it. I think that the NYT is writing to an audience what the audience wants to hear. Their headline is tabloidesque, which is odd for The Times which prides itself with measured professionality. And their reasons for publishing this article seem to have more to do with my overall claim than actual newsworthiness. [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/teleportation-china-earth-orbit-quantum-internet-2017-7 http://www.businessinsider.com/teleportation-china-earth-orb... [2] https://phys.org/news/2009-10-chinese-scientists-metamaterial-black-hole.html https://phys.org/news/2009-10-chinese-scientists-metamateria...
wslh 9y ago
I have been following HN threads related to China and working with customers/partners there, and, in general, I find black and white ideas. Corruption and non-democracy are big issues there but Americans mainly should learn more about how to compete with them because there are many many smart bussinesmen and they work much harder than Americans.
- rhizome 9y ago
  It takes attention off the corruption and non-democracy we see in the US.
sidlls 9y ago
Your comment doesn't address the issues presented in the article. What the article describes isn't racist westerners dismissing good science because of racism or fear. It describes fraud and retractions because other scientists cannot reproduce the results.
- lstyls 9y ago
  I think what OP means isn't racism, but that only negative issues get attention.
  - agumonkey 9y ago
    Seriously I'm all for criticizing USA since they're onto a weird path and the glow of the 20th century is starting to fade. But after reading 60% of the article, I didn't even bother finishing it. It's such a sad bag of tricks to get money on publication for no reason that it casts doubts on everything China's research is outputing. Not long ago I read some medical papers about cancer for real purpose, I now wonder if I was fooled by some bad claims.. My POV about China, there are two points: - a history of low grade copy: this is not how you discover or get attention/credibility - a booming growth: as the article says, they "want" to become a science leading country, but you can't rush it, skipping steps now may cause implosion later on (as the amount of paper retraction shows). Other than that, nobody says China or any country cannot do science, but it needs proper dedication to the method and patience...
pavanred 9y ago
What does being "in charge of the world" mean anyway?
- HillaryBriss 9y ago
  it doesn't mean anything. and even if it did mean anything, it wouldn't mean anything to most US residents -- except an opportunity to join the world's largest military machine.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Afforess 9y ago
>China is evil I can only imagine that the Chinese middle-class feel the same way towards the USA. >Their democracy is even more of a joke than that of the US I never understood the idea that democracy was a superior form of government. If, in the future, China (or some other nation) becomes the next world power, with superior scientific innovation, larger industry, higher standards of living, etc, will you still prefer Democracy to what they have? It seems incredibly naive to assume the present state of the west is somehow the final and ultimate condition we can hope to obtain. If this is as good as it gets, I think I want to move to China.
- timthelion 9y ago
  > I never understood the idea that democracy was a superior form of government. If, in the future, China (or some other nation) becomes the next world power, with superior scientific innovation, larger industry, higher standards of living, etc, will you still prefer Democracy to what they have? Well of course I would. Would you rather be married to a rich man who beats you? > It seems incredibly naive to assume the present state of the west is somehow the final and ultimate condition we can hope to obtain. If this is as good as it gets, I think I want to move to China. I am extremely sceptical of American "democracy" but I see Chinese totalitarianism to be a step in the wrong direction.
- HillaryBriss 9y ago
  freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose
- jldugger 9y ago
  > I can only imagine that the Chinese middle-class feel the same way towards the USA. Well, there's plenty of middle class in the US who think the Republican party and Trump is evil, so that sounds plausible. > I never understood the idea that democracy was a superior form of government. Winston Churchill quotes might be cliche, but still warranted. Democracy is superior in the sense that it provides a release valve for replacing incompetent or malicious government less catastrophic than peasant uprisings or Coup d'états. Fortunately, it's still an open question whether repressive regimes can become superior. Or whether repressive regimes will continue their repression as the population thrives. > I think I want to move to China. Voting with your feet -- What a very democratic idea!
taway_1212 9y ago
> Their democracy is even more of a joke than that of the US. What democracy?
- timthelion 9y ago
  China is a democracy. Almost all countries are. They even have fair elections I beleive. However, they do not have OPEN and fair elections. Only people who have been approved by the communist party can ever appear on a ballot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China
  - rhizome 9y ago
    And to be sure, the same thing happens in the US: try running for prosecutor without a police union endorsement. It's not codified like it is in China, but it has the same effect.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
briandear 9y ago
China isn't failing, it's just succeeding in a different direction. They're extremely good at what they do, however, "innovation" isn't what they care about. They're stockpiling. They're preparing for a difficult world future. They are the international equivalent of "preppers." This Zak Slayback article (which itself is summarizing Peter Thiel) explains it exceptionally well. https://zakslayback.com/2014/10/07/pessimism-optimism-definite-indefinite-societies-according-to-peter-thiel/ https://zakslayback.com/2014/10/07/pessimism-optimism-defini... >Their democracy is even more of a joke than that of the US. Really? You're actually going to make that statement? Calling China a democracy is beyond ridiculous.
Semiapies 9y ago
"I feel that we on the west are plugging our ears and going nanananana" About what? Nobody's shouting down actual Chinese achievements in science. We've learned from experience to be dubious about any scientific announcements out of China, because so very frequently, they turn out to be bogus. They make the western reproducibility crisis look like a few un-dotted i' s in comparison. I can't think of the last discovery out of China I heard of that didn't get retracted or turn out to be fraudulent. Right now, science is not a field I'm even slightly afraid of China taking a lead on, any time soon. Maybe in a generation or two, after a lot of reform. (Space, now, maybe. You can use decades-old, already-done science to get into space. You just need money.)

rhizome 9y ago

The US is so far down a hole that its identity now rests on denigrating others, casting itself as the big crab in the bucket.

sampo 9y ago
These days, Americans are busy denigrating other Americans. I wonder how much attention they have left for denigrating China.

lstyls 9y ago

I totally agree with the broader point. I recently traveled to China for the first time, and was amazed by how far out of line my preconceived notions were. I think it's a mental block that keeps the West from learning from Chinese innovation. That said, Chinese academia has a massive credibility problem for a good reason. I know a PhD working in materials science and organic chemistry, and after being burned multiple times by unreproducible papers that PhD doesn't even bother to spend time trying out methods reported by Chinese researchers. Yes, this is anecdotal but it correlates strongly with the wider reporting on the issue. I'm sure there are many good researchers in China - part of the problem is that their work won't be disseminated because it will be written off.

timthelion 9y ago
I think it is possible that the Chinese actually want to be disregarded. They know that intelectual property rights laws are useless in the international arena, but what if they could inovate and have their inventions not copied because no one beleived them?
- pishpash 9y ago
  "Keep a low profile and cultivate thyself quietly."
- visarga 9y ago
  I think China will be quite good at applying existing methods or creating derivative works (despite the frauds) and ultimately that's what matters. Most applications in AI rely on simple systems, only a small part of them require cutting edge architectures or ideas.
  - timthelion 9y ago
    Wait, are you talking about China or AI?
    - visarga 9y ago
      Talking about benefitting and application of AI in China.
      - timthelion 9y ago
        My point was, that people are always saying the same thing about China and AI. "They might have solved this problem, but they will never be truely creative."
- hetspookjee 9y ago
  I do not understand how that is, even remotely, a plausible explanation for the fraud scandals. It makes me think of this comic http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-was-only-pretending-to-be-retarded http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-was-only-pretending-to-be-re... Despite IP laws being useless in the international arena it's not too far fetched that even the Chinese, despite being so large, are aided by the whole global scientific community reviewing and replicating their results. It makes progress all that much faster and easier.

tptacek 9y ago

Can you relate this concern back to the article, or is it orthogonal to the thread? Abstract, orthogonal concerns are often easier to discuss than the particulars of the articles we're talking about. Anyone can have an opinion about the relative merits of "superpowers", whether or not they've read the article. So even when the root orthogonal comment is well-intentioned and informed, the subsequent comments may not be, and will end up crowding out informed discussion. It's a frustrating recurring pattern on HN and one we'd do well to push back on. And I think all we have to do to accomplish that is to tie our abstract concerns back in some way to the actual article.

diminish 9y ago
"orthogonal" in this case is too strong for GP comment on OP.
- timthelion 9y ago
  Are you saying that my comment was "not even orthogonal"? I've ready your post several times and still don't understand what you meant.
  - diminish 9y ago
    Sorry, what I mean is that your comment is quite in the right place. "Orthogonal" isn't true.
timthelion 9y ago
I agree with you that HN is often getting distracted by the endless cycle of "debate about nothing" in which people debate things in abstract terms pushing in abstract directions. And I see now, that my post has generated more debate about nothing and very little usefull discussion. So to the point. I don't think that international credibility is a metric that means much to China. They have never sought it. They have had a quality problem for a very long time and done nothing to improve their image in manufacturing. However, all would agree that they have become a manufacturing powerhouse. This is because it matters more that they can deliver a good to the hands of consumers than what the consumers think of the manufacturer. If they invent a way to instantaneously communicate over long distances [1] or to make meta-materials with surprising properties [2] , they can exploit these results. Whether "the West" beleives those results or not is probably not of much interest to them. Indeed, it might be in China's interest that we don't beleive in Chinese science. Perhaps, China will become a magician to us, a box which produces goods which we do not understand. An alien civlization. Would that not be in their interest? They already do medical research which the west does not have the stomach to discuss. Genetic research on live subjects and fetuses. We don't even have a framework for replicating that research and medical students in "the West" do not learn from the results. But someday rich people will fly to China and beg for their magical cures. "Oh yes. Mr. Jobs, we have nanobots that can cure your cancer. Just give us a stake in Apple." And we won't even understand the medicine, we won't consider it to be real science. We'll call it "Eastern medicine". But it will work. And people will pay their life savings for it. I think that the NYT is writing to an audience what the audience wants to hear. Their headline is tabloidesque, which is odd for The Times which prides itself with measured professionality. And their reasons for publishing this article seem to have more to do with my overall claim than actual newsworthiness. [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/teleportation-china-earth-orbit-quantum-internet-2017-7 http://www.businessinsider.com/teleportation-china-earth-orb... [2] https://phys.org/news/2009-10-chinese-scientists-metamaterial-black-hole.html https://phys.org/news/2009-10-chinese-scientists-metamateria...

wslh 9y ago

I have been following HN threads related to China and working with customers/partners there, and, in general, I find black and white ideas. Corruption and non-democracy are big issues there but Americans mainly should learn more about how to compete with them because there are many many smart bussinesmen and they work much harder than Americans.

rhizome 9y ago
It takes attention off the corruption and non-democracy we see in the US.

sidlls 9y ago

Your comment doesn't address the issues presented in the article. What the article describes isn't racist westerners dismissing good science because of racism or fear. It describes fraud and retractions because other scientists cannot reproduce the results.

lstyls 9y ago
I think what OP means isn't racism, but that only negative issues get attention.
- agumonkey 9y ago
  Seriously I'm all for criticizing USA since they're onto a weird path and the glow of the 20th century is starting to fade. But after reading 60% of the article, I didn't even bother finishing it. It's such a sad bag of tricks to get money on publication for no reason that it casts doubts on everything China's research is outputing. Not long ago I read some medical papers about cancer for real purpose, I now wonder if I was fooled by some bad claims.. My POV about China, there are two points: - a history of low grade copy: this is not how you discover or get attention/credibility - a booming growth: as the article says, they "want" to become a science leading country, but you can't rush it, skipping steps now may cause implosion later on (as the amount of paper retraction shows). Other than that, nobody says China or any country cannot do science, but it needs proper dedication to the method and patience...

pavanred 9y ago

What does being "in charge of the world" mean anyway?

HillaryBriss 9y ago
it doesn't mean anything. and even if it did mean anything, it wouldn't mean anything to most US residents -- except an opportunity to join the world's largest military machine.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Afforess 9y ago

>China is evil I can only imagine that the Chinese middle-class feel the same way towards the USA. >Their democracy is even more of a joke than that of the US I never understood the idea that democracy was a superior form of government. If, in the future, China (or some other nation) becomes the next world power, with superior scientific innovation, larger industry, higher standards of living, etc, will you still prefer Democracy to what they have? It seems incredibly naive to assume the present state of the west is somehow the final and ultimate condition we can hope to obtain. If this is as good as it gets, I think I want to move to China.

timthelion 9y ago
> I never understood the idea that democracy was a superior form of government. If, in the future, China (or some other nation) becomes the next world power, with superior scientific innovation, larger industry, higher standards of living, etc, will you still prefer Democracy to what they have? Well of course I would. Would you rather be married to a rich man who beats you? > It seems incredibly naive to assume the present state of the west is somehow the final and ultimate condition we can hope to obtain. If this is as good as it gets, I think I want to move to China. I am extremely sceptical of American "democracy" but I see Chinese totalitarianism to be a step in the wrong direction.
HillaryBriss 9y ago
freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose
jldugger 9y ago
> I can only imagine that the Chinese middle-class feel the same way towards the USA. Well, there's plenty of middle class in the US who think the Republican party and Trump is evil, so that sounds plausible. > I never understood the idea that democracy was a superior form of government. Winston Churchill quotes might be cliche, but still warranted. Democracy is superior in the sense that it provides a release valve for replacing incompetent or malicious government less catastrophic than peasant uprisings or Coup d'états. Fortunately, it's still an open question whether repressive regimes can become superior. Or whether repressive regimes will continue their repression as the population thrives. > I think I want to move to China. Voting with your feet -- What a very democratic idea!

taway_1212 9y ago

> Their democracy is even more of a joke than that of the US. What democracy?

timthelion 9y ago
China is a democracy. Almost all countries are. They even have fair elections I beleive. However, they do not have OPEN and fair elections. Only people who have been approved by the communist party can ever appear on a ballot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China
- rhizome 9y ago
  And to be sure, the same thing happens in the US: try running for prosecutor without a police union endorsement. It's not codified like it is in China, but it has the same effect.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

briandear 9y ago

China isn't failing, it's just succeeding in a different direction. They're extremely good at what they do, however, "innovation" isn't what they care about. They're stockpiling. They're preparing for a difficult world future. They are the international equivalent of "preppers." This Zak Slayback article (which itself is summarizing Peter Thiel) explains it exceptionally well. https://zakslayback.com/2014/10/07/pessimism-optimism-definite-indefinite-societies-according-to-peter-thiel/ https://zakslayback.com/2014/10/07/pessimism-optimism-defini... >Their democracy is even more of a joke than that of the US. Really? You're actually going to make that statement? Calling China a democracy is beyond ridiculous.

Semiapies 9y ago

"I feel that we on the west are plugging our ears and going nanananana" About what? Nobody's shouting down actual Chinese achievements in science. We've learned from experience to be dubious about any scientific announcements out of China, because so very frequently, they turn out to be bogus. They make the western reproducibility crisis look like a few un-dotted i' s in comparison. I can't think of the last discovery out of China I heard of that didn't get retracted or turn out to be fraudulent. Right now, science is not a field I'm even slightly afraid of China taking a lead on, any time soon. Maybe in a generation or two, after a lot of reform. (Space, now, maybe. You can use decades-old, already-done science to get into space. You just need money.)