7 ms·

You're not wrong about some mainland Chinese refusing to believe (or never learning in the first place) anything about 6/4. My wife is among them, or used to b

by dmoy 9y ago

You're not wrong about some mainland Chinese refusing to believe (or never learning in the first place) anything about 6/4. My wife is among them, or used to be at least. Then again if you ask the average US freshman if the US military shot and killed a bunch of student protestors, you'd find a number who wouldn't believe you. Difference is in the US a trivial we search answers that question for you, while in China all record of 6/4 is scrubbed, and even acronyms that you use to mention it get scrubbed, etc.

mslate 9y ago
For everyone else who doesn't know what "6/4" refers to, it refers to the date of the Tiananmen Square protests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1...
- simongray 9y ago
  To be exact, it refers to the massacre. The protests lasted for a long time before the crackdown.
- swang 9y ago
  A Day To Remember. A short video where they ask Chinese University students, "what day is today." Filmed in 2005... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCPkkGArVy4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCPkkGArVy4 I watch this clip a lot around the 6/4 anniversary. This is not the original copy, that's somewhere on Vimeo I think.
  - mslate 9y ago
    Wow, the discomfort is intense. How much is that from being video recorded w/o consent?
  - rqs 9y ago
    That's in 2005. CCP's online control only got worst these years. Today if you ask average young people on the street in China about 4 Jun, some (If not many) of them may even don't understand what you're talking about.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
It isn't 6/4, but May 35th (5/35). It isn't completely scrubbed, many know it happened, they just don't talk about it because (a) they don't care and (b) they aren't allowed to (in that order). Historical reflection is where the Chinese gov really clamps down, and even the cultural revolution is taboo even if everyone knows just about what happened. Kent state happened so long ago that most American students just don't know, or anything much that happened during Vietnam, which our history classes don't seem to have time to cover. In china, its a bit worse, as they have the siege of Changchun (the communists basically starved out a few hundred thousand civilians), or the 1938 yellow river flood, where the nationalists killed millions of civilians to thwart the Japanese. In those contexts, Tiananmen is just a blip.
- LiweiZ 9y ago
  AFAIK as a Chinese, the 1938 incident is known to many since it was said to be Jiang's decision. As of Changchun, I saw that topic a few times in some forums 10+ years ago. The things people want to know change over time as well. Now, China is feeling its power and strength like a growing teenager (not very accurate, but you get what I mean), so the glory of the past, now and future is what people want to know. Zhanlang 2 (War Wolf 2)'s phenomenal financial success (close to 1bn usd box office maybe?) is a recent strong signal.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Chest beating is a thing in the USA also, some of our block buster movies can be like that.
  - justicezyx 9y ago
    > "growing teenager" This is an incrediable naive and patronizing phrase to describe China's accumulation of power. As a matter of fact, China's ascending is the most peaceful and constrained among all past super powers in the world history.
    - LiweiZ 9y ago
      I specifically mentioned that analogy was not accurate. I have to add that it's the kind of feeling that directly reflects teenager's physical growth, taller, quicker, faster, stronger, etc. Perhaps my original analogy led you to relate to the emotional side more. Especially in western societies, that can turn to more physical impact. Teenagers in China actually have that kind of things as well, but there is simply less room for them. Another thing is, in a world with several nuclear weapon equipped states, can two such nations simply confront with each other? Look around east Asia, you have to play very carefully. So I guess there should have been more context to put in to have a better idea of what I was trying to deliver. If some big and vague words can explain, yeah, it's cultural difference, too.
PhantomGremlin 9y ago
Then again if you ask the average US freshman if the US military shot and killed a bunch of student protestors, you'd find a number who wouldn't believe you. Saying "US military" is somewhat misleading. The soldiers who shot and killed four students at Kent State University were part of what we call the "National Guard".[1] These are reserve military units. National Guardsmen usually have full-time civilian jobs and are only called into service when needed. Sometimes these soldiers are called "weekend warriors". A National Guard unit is controlled by an individual state up until the time that the US government needs its services. It would be more correct to call those soldiers "Ohio state military". At the time of the shootings, the National Guard unit involved was under the control of Governor Rhodes of the State of Ohio.[2] There is a big distinction in the USA between "federal" (aka national US) and "state" government. This distinction isn't necessarily clear to foreigners. Granted, this distinction isn't necessarily clear to about 70% of US citizens either. But that's an entire other discussion. Edit: the law has been updated since then, but something called the Posse Comitatus Act was in effect at the time.[3] It is against the law for the US military to act as a domestic police force: From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_S... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
- PhantomGremlin 9y ago
  Downvotes? Really? I've never complained about downvotes before, but this is rich! Today's millennials aren't interested in understanding "federalism", which is one of the founding tenets of the USA? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism

by dmoy 9y ago

mslate 9y ago

For everyone else who doesn't know what "6/4" refers to, it refers to the date of the Tiananmen Square protests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1...

simongray 9y ago
To be exact, it refers to the massacre. The protests lasted for a long time before the crackdown.
swang 9y ago
A Day To Remember. A short video where they ask Chinese University students, "what day is today." Filmed in 2005... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCPkkGArVy4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCPkkGArVy4 I watch this clip a lot around the 6/4 anniversary. This is not the original copy, that's somewhere on Vimeo I think.
- mslate 9y ago
  Wow, the discomfort is intense. How much is that from being video recorded w/o consent?
- rqs 9y ago
  That's in 2005. CCP's online control only got worst these years. Today if you ask average young people on the street in China about 4 Jun, some (If not many) of them may even don't understand what you're talking about.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

It isn't 6/4, but May 35th (5/35). It isn't completely scrubbed, many know it happened, they just don't talk about it because (a) they don't care and (b) they aren't allowed to (in that order). Historical reflection is where the Chinese gov really clamps down, and even the cultural revolution is taboo even if everyone knows just about what happened. Kent state happened so long ago that most American students just don't know, or anything much that happened during Vietnam, which our history classes don't seem to have time to cover. In china, its a bit worse, as they have the siege of Changchun (the communists basically starved out a few hundred thousand civilians), or the 1938 yellow river flood, where the nationalists killed millions of civilians to thwart the Japanese. In those contexts, Tiananmen is just a blip.

LiweiZ 9y ago
AFAIK as a Chinese, the 1938 incident is known to many since it was said to be Jiang's decision. As of Changchun, I saw that topic a few times in some forums 10+ years ago. The things people want to know change over time as well. Now, China is feeling its power and strength like a growing teenager (not very accurate, but you get what I mean), so the glory of the past, now and future is what people want to know. Zhanlang 2 (War Wolf 2)'s phenomenal financial success (close to 1bn usd box office maybe?) is a recent strong signal.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Chest beating is a thing in the USA also, some of our block buster movies can be like that.
- justicezyx 9y ago
  > "growing teenager" This is an incrediable naive and patronizing phrase to describe China's accumulation of power. As a matter of fact, China's ascending is the most peaceful and constrained among all past super powers in the world history.
  - LiweiZ 9y ago
    I specifically mentioned that analogy was not accurate. I have to add that it's the kind of feeling that directly reflects teenager's physical growth, taller, quicker, faster, stronger, etc. Perhaps my original analogy led you to relate to the emotional side more. Especially in western societies, that can turn to more physical impact. Teenagers in China actually have that kind of things as well, but there is simply less room for them. Another thing is, in a world with several nuclear weapon equipped states, can two such nations simply confront with each other? Look around east Asia, you have to play very carefully. So I guess there should have been more context to put in to have a better idea of what I was trying to deliver. If some big and vague words can explain, yeah, it's cultural difference, too.

PhantomGremlin 9y ago

Then again if you ask the average US freshman if the US military shot and killed a bunch of student protestors, you'd find a number who wouldn't believe you. Saying "US military" is somewhat misleading. The soldiers who shot and killed four students at Kent State University were part of what we call the "National Guard".[1] These are reserve military units. National Guardsmen usually have full-time civilian jobs and are only called into service when needed. Sometimes these soldiers are called "weekend warriors". A National Guard unit is controlled by an individual state up until the time that the US government needs its services. It would be more correct to call those soldiers "Ohio state military". At the time of the shootings, the National Guard unit involved was under the control of Governor Rhodes of the State of Ohio.[2] There is a big distinction in the USA between "federal" (aka national US) and "state" government. This distinction isn't necessarily clear to foreigners. Granted, this distinction isn't necessarily clear to about 70% of US citizens either. But that's an entire other discussion. Edit: the law has been updated since then, but something called the Posse Comitatus Act was in effect at the time.[3] It is against the law for the US military to act as a domestic police force: From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_S... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

PhantomGremlin 9y ago
Downvotes? Really? I've never complained about downvotes before, but this is rich! Today's millennials aren't interested in understanding "federalism", which is one of the founding tenets of the USA? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism