6 ms·

Just want to note that if you're not tied to Germany in particular, Netherlands is a much better option for US citizens looking to start a company, thanks to th

Just want to note that if you're not tied to Germany in particular, Netherlands is a much better option for US citizens looking to start a company, thanks to the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty. (yes, it's DAFT - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT). NL is a pretty easy place to business, at least as an entrepreneur. (Things get more complicated with lots of employees, like in most of Europe.) The tl;dr version is US citizens can get a residency permit (2 years, renewable indefinitely, considered a non-temporary purpose of stay so you're eligible for permanent residency after 5 years) to start a business in the Netherlands with very few restrictions and very little in the way of capital requirements (€4500 in the business account.) Plenty of attorneys in the Netherlands can take care of the necessary paperwork for €1500, give or take, but lots of people manage it themselves too. A few blogs and guides of the many out there: https://daftvisa.wordpress.com/step-by-step-guide/ https://daftvisa.wordpress.com/step-by-step-guide/ https://survivingdaft.tumblr.com/ https://survivingdaft.tumblr.com/ http://passthesourcream.com/daft/ http://passthesourcream.com/daft/

jorvi 9y ago
Not only that, we are considered the best non-native English speakers of the world, so even if you aren't keen on learning Dutch (boo!) you'll manage pretty easily :)
- ant6n 9y ago
  The Dutch are also great at German!
  - Freak_NL 9y ago
    Only in as far as our languages are similar (they are more closely related than either of them is to English). A lot of younger Dutch are quite limited in the languages they speak; often just Dutch and passable English. Don't expect people under 30 to be able to read a German newspaper comprehensively or hold a conversation beyond ordering beer in a Biergarten when in Germany. Older generations with a tertiary education degree often can speak and read at least either French or German at a more useful level though.
    - pwagland 9y ago
      While this may be true, you will find quite a reasonable number of people who can speak non-English foreign languages quite well, and that excludes the foreign nationals that come to live and work in the Netherlands as well. If you wanted to serve a largely German speaking clientele, then you could reasonably expect to get a decent number of applicants in the Netherlands in my experience, especially in the border regions. The kids here are still learning German and French in school, and while they might speak it less, there are still plenty that go there regularly.
- sarabande 9y ago
  I looked this up to make sure [0]; it's true, and the countries with a "very high" proficiency are: 01 Netherlands 02 Denmark 03 Sweden 04 Norway 05 Finland 06 Singapore 07 Luxembourg 0: http://www.ef.com/epi/?mc=we http://www.ef.com/epi/?mc=we
  - Geekette 9y ago
    I question the validity of "global" rankings that don't include regions like East, West or South Africa, where countries like Kenya, Ghana, Nigeria, South Africa have very high English proficiency rates (especially given that it's also an/the official language in most cases).
    - oblio 9y ago
      I think the point of those ranking is ESL. So if English is an official language, you're out ;)
      - darklajid 9y ago
        Then Singapore doesn't belong on that list.
    - Chris2048 9y ago
      UK and Ireland not there either.
      - adventured 9y ago
        It's a list of nations in which English is not the first or primary language (which is why Australia and New Zealand are also not listed).
  - Iv 9y ago
    Note also that fields are not all equal. In France I used to complain about the lack of English skills but I never found a programmer who could not at least read English and most business people will be able to communicate, maybe with a strong accent. Now I live in Japan and most programmers I meet do not speak English at all (leading them to be pretty poor programmers). Proficiency is not equally distributed.
- astrange 9y ago
  They're also all taller than you, so you'll have to get used to looking up.
  - adventured 9y ago
    It is quite the growth spurt, given how short the Dutch used to be: "Today, the Dutch are on average the tallest people on the planet. Just 150 years ago, they were relatively short. In 1860, the average Dutch soldier in the Netherlands was 5-foot-5. American men were 2.7 inches taller." https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/why-the-dutch-became-the-tallest-people-on-the-planet/ https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/why-the-dutch-beca...
- rconti 9y ago
  Helpful, as my wife and I keep considering moving to Europe for a spell. It probably won't be so difficult as I am an Italian citizen and she is British; however with the UK leaving the EU, suddenly we may have to worry about her being an EU resident either as a guest from the UK, or as someone married to me (which means lots of paperwork in a language I don't understand). Also, her job in a hospital means she needs to speak the local language "unless--" .. which probably means unless they have a specific need for a native english speaker who does not have to know the local language, or if it's an American military hospital, or...
- Fnoord 9y ago
  Dutch is a difficult language to learn, and you'll manage fine with English; especially if you're located in large cities like Amsterdam. We went out dinner yesterday in Amsterdam and people start conversations in English even though both parties end up being Dutch (we're Dutch natives). Also, learning Dutch isn't very useful since it isn't spoken a lot throughout the world. If you'd like to have yourself heard/understood in the EU, even though English should generally suffice, German is another contender. In Italy its quite well understood (esp the north) and many Eastern European countries as well. Though perhaps Russian even better, I don't know. As for Germany, the Germans living in cities like Berlin and Munich speak excellent English.
archagon 9y ago
Have been seriously thinking about doing this, but the residency requirements give me pause. (You must always have a mailing, non-PO-box address in NL — essentially, your own place — and have to stay in the country 6 months out of a year, though apparently it’s not really enforced.) In Europe right now and maybe 25-75 on just pulling the trigger... who knows if our so-called president ends up doing something stupid that blows up this treaty? No other easy paths to residency in the EU as far as I’m aware!
- eastendguy 9y ago
  There is the blue card http://www.bamf.de/EN/Infothek/FragenAntworten/BlaueKarteEU/blaue-karte-eu-node.html http://www.bamf.de/EN/Infothek/FragenAntworten/BlaueKarteEU/... Essentially all you need is a normal IT job above a certain threshold
  - archagon 9y ago
    Sorry, I forgot to add “...for a self-employed person”.
    - ianhowson 9y ago
      Germany offers a self-employment visa too, with not too many additional requirements on top of the Blue Card.
- CalRobert 9y ago
  Well, there's always the whole "get a job" path. If you're single you might find a European partner which helps. If you're a US citizen another temporary option (but among the easiest) is to get a working holiday visa for Ireland. I believe it's the only EU nation offering working holiday visas to the US. I probably wouldn't bother with it if the DAFT were an option - when I got one it was much earlier in my career. Not sure how the residency requirement is a bad thing? NL is pretty nice as I understand it. Incidentally, this blogger did the DAFT and describes their experience: http://shawnindutch.com/ http://shawnindutch.com/
atupis 9y ago
Estonia is also good option https://e-resident.gov.ee https://e-resident.gov.ee you can do everything remotly
- hobofan 9y ago
  You should keep in mind though that having your company in such a small country might shut you off from some services. E.g. I decided against Estonia for my SaaS business because Stripe is not available there (among other reasons), since that alone probably creates more hassle than founding the company there saves.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
beagle3 9y ago
Will the Dutch actually let you manage your finances if you are a US taxpayer? Many countries will now limit US tax payers to checking accounts exclusively, sometimes blocking money transfers and stuff - thanks to FATCA. Furthermore, US taxpayers have crazy FBAR/FATCA reporting requirements about any money you have signatory rights outside the US, even if it isn't their money - to the point that having e.g. a CFO with a US citizenship -- even if they never set foot in the US -- is becoming a serious liability for a company.
smnrchrds 9y ago
Are there any similar programs in Europe for Canadian citizens?

jorvi 9y ago

Not only that, we are considered the best non-native English speakers of the world, so even if you aren't keen on learning Dutch (boo!) you'll manage pretty easily :)

ant6n 9y ago
The Dutch are also great at German!
- Freak_NL 9y ago
  Only in as far as our languages are similar (they are more closely related than either of them is to English). A lot of younger Dutch are quite limited in the languages they speak; often just Dutch and passable English. Don't expect people under 30 to be able to read a German newspaper comprehensively or hold a conversation beyond ordering beer in a Biergarten when in Germany. Older generations with a tertiary education degree often can speak and read at least either French or German at a more useful level though.
  - pwagland 9y ago
    While this may be true, you will find quite a reasonable number of people who can speak non-English foreign languages quite well, and that excludes the foreign nationals that come to live and work in the Netherlands as well. If you wanted to serve a largely German speaking clientele, then you could reasonably expect to get a decent number of applicants in the Netherlands in my experience, especially in the border regions. The kids here are still learning German and French in school, and while they might speak it less, there are still plenty that go there regularly.
sarabande 9y ago
I looked this up to make sure [0]; it's true, and the countries with a "very high" proficiency are: 01 Netherlands 02 Denmark 03 Sweden 04 Norway 05 Finland 06 Singapore 07 Luxembourg 0: http://www.ef.com/epi/?mc=we http://www.ef.com/epi/?mc=we
- Geekette 9y ago
  I question the validity of "global" rankings that don't include regions like East, West or South Africa, where countries like Kenya, Ghana, Nigeria, South Africa have very high English proficiency rates (especially given that it's also an/the official language in most cases).
  - oblio 9y ago
    I think the point of those ranking is ESL. So if English is an official language, you're out ;)
    - darklajid 9y ago
      Then Singapore doesn't belong on that list.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    UK and Ireland not there either.
    - adventured 9y ago
      It's a list of nations in which English is not the first or primary language (which is why Australia and New Zealand are also not listed).
- Iv 9y ago
  Note also that fields are not all equal. In France I used to complain about the lack of English skills but I never found a programmer who could not at least read English and most business people will be able to communicate, maybe with a strong accent. Now I live in Japan and most programmers I meet do not speak English at all (leading them to be pretty poor programmers). Proficiency is not equally distributed.
astrange 9y ago
They're also all taller than you, so you'll have to get used to looking up.
- adventured 9y ago
  It is quite the growth spurt, given how short the Dutch used to be: "Today, the Dutch are on average the tallest people on the planet. Just 150 years ago, they were relatively short. In 1860, the average Dutch soldier in the Netherlands was 5-foot-5. American men were 2.7 inches taller." https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/why-the-dutch-became-the-tallest-people-on-the-planet/ https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/why-the-dutch-beca...
rconti 9y ago
Helpful, as my wife and I keep considering moving to Europe for a spell. It probably won't be so difficult as I am an Italian citizen and she is British; however with the UK leaving the EU, suddenly we may have to worry about her being an EU resident either as a guest from the UK, or as someone married to me (which means lots of paperwork in a language I don't understand). Also, her job in a hospital means she needs to speak the local language "unless--" .. which probably means unless they have a specific need for a native english speaker who does not have to know the local language, or if it's an American military hospital, or...
Fnoord 9y ago
Dutch is a difficult language to learn, and you'll manage fine with English; especially if you're located in large cities like Amsterdam. We went out dinner yesterday in Amsterdam and people start conversations in English even though both parties end up being Dutch (we're Dutch natives). Also, learning Dutch isn't very useful since it isn't spoken a lot throughout the world. If you'd like to have yourself heard/understood in the EU, even though English should generally suffice, German is another contender. In Italy its quite well understood (esp the north) and many Eastern European countries as well. Though perhaps Russian even better, I don't know. As for Germany, the Germans living in cities like Berlin and Munich speak excellent English.

archagon 9y ago

Have been seriously thinking about doing this, but the residency requirements give me pause. (You must always have a mailing, non-PO-box address in NL — essentially, your own place — and have to stay in the country 6 months out of a year, though apparently it’s not really enforced.) In Europe right now and maybe 25-75 on just pulling the trigger... who knows if our so-called president ends up doing something stupid that blows up this treaty? No other easy paths to residency in the EU as far as I’m aware!

eastendguy 9y ago
There is the blue card http://www.bamf.de/EN/Infothek/FragenAntworten/BlaueKarteEU/blaue-karte-eu-node.html http://www.bamf.de/EN/Infothek/FragenAntworten/BlaueKarteEU/... Essentially all you need is a normal IT job above a certain threshold
- archagon 9y ago
  Sorry, I forgot to add “...for a self-employed person”.
  - ianhowson 9y ago
    Germany offers a self-employment visa too, with not too many additional requirements on top of the Blue Card.
CalRobert 9y ago
Well, there's always the whole "get a job" path. If you're single you might find a European partner which helps. If you're a US citizen another temporary option (but among the easiest) is to get a working holiday visa for Ireland. I believe it's the only EU nation offering working holiday visas to the US. I probably wouldn't bother with it if the DAFT were an option - when I got one it was much earlier in my career. Not sure how the residency requirement is a bad thing? NL is pretty nice as I understand it. Incidentally, this blogger did the DAFT and describes their experience: http://shawnindutch.com/ http://shawnindutch.com/

atupis 9y ago

Estonia is also good option https://e-resident.gov.ee https://e-resident.gov.ee you can do everything remotly

hobofan 9y ago
You should keep in mind though that having your company in such a small country might shut you off from some services. E.g. I decided against Estonia for my SaaS business because Stripe is not available there (among other reasons), since that alone probably creates more hassle than founding the company there saves.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

beagle3 9y ago

Will the Dutch actually let you manage your finances if you are a US taxpayer? Many countries will now limit US tax payers to checking accounts exclusively, sometimes blocking money transfers and stuff - thanks to FATCA. Furthermore, US taxpayers have crazy FBAR/FATCA reporting requirements about any money you have signatory rights outside the US, even if it isn't their money - to the point that having e.g. a CFO with a US citizenship -- even if they never set foot in the US -- is becoming a serious liability for a company.

smnrchrds 9y ago

Are there any similar programs in Europe for Canadian citizens?