6 ms·

At this point you just assume that any sufficiently large company based in Russia with capabilities of misusing their power in a way to profit Russian state gov

by rwz 9y ago

At this point you just assume that any sufficiently large company based in Russia with capabilities of misusing their power in a way to profit Russian state government will be coerced into doing so or go out of business at some point. Russian thugs have no issues applying pressure till the victim collapses or agrees to cooperate even against their interests. I lived in Russia for 25 years and I saw that happen many times.

wallace_f 9y ago
Unfortunately, it does happen here as well(1,2). 1-https://theintercept.com/2017/10/10/recordings-capture-brutal-fbi-tactics-to-recruit-potential-informant/ https://theintercept.com/2017/10/10/recordings-capture-bruta... 2-https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/08/lavabit-email-shut-down-edward-snowden https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/08/lavabit-e... 3-https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  How is the Lavabit case an instance of the government misusing its power? The government got a court order to monitor the metadata of an account of a user that they had probable cause to link to a crime. (The alleged criminal had already admitted to the crime.) Lavabit had previously complied with search warrants to obtain data for users suspected of dealing in child pornography. https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/Maryland_District_Court/1--13-mj-00607/In_the_Matter_of_the_Search_of--_Lavabit_LLC_Email_Account_for_Joey006@lavabit.com/ https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/Maryland_District_Court/1-... When Lavabit delayed implementing the monitoring they had agreed to, losing forever the ability to collect data generated during that time, only then did the government effectively put them out of business.
  - wallace_f 9y ago
    Well, fair point. My bias may come from the fact that I see NSA domestic surveillance as grossly unconstitutional as well as an undemocratically implemented abuse of state power. I suppose it's useful to ask at what point can the State grant an order that is illegitimate, if this isn't one of those cases? If Putin has a court order drafted to do his dirty work does that make it any more legitimate? Maybe Snowden broke laws, but every single person breaks some frivolous laws every year of their life that they can be prosecuted for, see The Intercept source I posted on this.
  - WillReplyfFood 9y ago
    Is there even one request denied for a court oder?
- theylon 9y ago
  If your company is in Russia, China or the US, and the government in that country has any interest in the data you collect, you will have to give it away. In Russia and China they just do it, in the US it's a matter of "National Security". I'm not sure why this would surprise anyone - maybe because most of us are on the side of the latter.
  - rtpg 9y ago
    Russian and China coercion are on a completely different scale, and we all know it. Especially after the Snowden backlash. Imagine any major Chinese IT company pushing back against government requests like Dreamhost did. Even the biggest ones can't/won't. It helps that the government is a huge investor in most of them, of course. "Chinese IT company rebuffs government demand for user information on its website". This headline does not exist.
    - geowwy 9y ago
      A lot of that is because Russia and China don't feel very secure compared to the US for various historical/geopolitical reasons. The US govt is known to act ruthlessly when it feels there's an existential threat.
      - rtpg 9y ago
        Feel like this is moving goalposts, especially given the context of this discussion (IT corps protecting their users from the government). Think about the fact that the FBI had to actually get a warrant to even begin talking to Lavabit. They had to actually go through bureaucracy. It was not instantly handed over to them on request.
        codedokode 9y ago
        But they have successfully shut down the Lavabit as a result.
      - HalfwayToDice 9y ago
thrawnjuxt 9y ago
Should we be afraid of tools like Intellij as well? I have been looking into Kotlin, and really like it so far, but the idea of a backdoor getting added to my apps by the compiler of the language is straight out of a nightmare.
- threeseed 9y ago
  Just decompile your built JAR files and go through the source code yourself if you're worried. http://www.benf.org/other/cfr/ http://www.benf.org/other/cfr/ Also JetBrains is based in Czech Republic not Russia.
  - rounce 9y ago
    JetBrains is registered in the Czech Republic but most development takes place in St Petersburg.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
WillReplyfFood 9y ago
Yeah, remember what they did to lavabit.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
burnte 9y ago
Lavabit.
sschueller 9y ago
Couldn't you say the exact same thing about any company in the United States? Instead of thugs we have payoffs, secret warrants and courts.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

by rwz 9y ago

wallace_f 9y ago

Unfortunately, it does happen here as well(1,2). 1-https://theintercept.com/2017/10/10/recordings-capture-brutal-fbi-tactics-to-recruit-potential-informant/ https://theintercept.com/2017/10/10/recordings-capture-bruta... 2-https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/08/lavabit-email-shut-down-edward-snowden https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/08/lavabit-e... 3-https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer

lern_too_spel 9y ago
How is the Lavabit case an instance of the government misusing its power? The government got a court order to monitor the metadata of an account of a user that they had probable cause to link to a crime. (The alleged criminal had already admitted to the crime.) Lavabit had previously complied with search warrants to obtain data for users suspected of dealing in child pornography. https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/Maryland_District_Court/1--13-mj-00607/In_the_Matter_of_the_Search_of--_Lavabit_LLC_Email_Account_for_Joey006@lavabit.com/ https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/Maryland_District_Court/1-... When Lavabit delayed implementing the monitoring they had agreed to, losing forever the ability to collect data generated during that time, only then did the government effectively put them out of business.
- wallace_f 9y ago
  Well, fair point. My bias may come from the fact that I see NSA domestic surveillance as grossly unconstitutional as well as an undemocratically implemented abuse of state power. I suppose it's useful to ask at what point can the State grant an order that is illegitimate, if this isn't one of those cases? If Putin has a court order drafted to do his dirty work does that make it any more legitimate? Maybe Snowden broke laws, but every single person breaks some frivolous laws every year of their life that they can be prosecuted for, see The Intercept source I posted on this.
- WillReplyfFood 9y ago
  Is there even one request denied for a court oder?
theylon 9y ago
If your company is in Russia, China or the US, and the government in that country has any interest in the data you collect, you will have to give it away. In Russia and China they just do it, in the US it's a matter of "National Security". I'm not sure why this would surprise anyone - maybe because most of us are on the side of the latter.
- rtpg 9y ago
  Russian and China coercion are on a completely different scale, and we all know it. Especially after the Snowden backlash. Imagine any major Chinese IT company pushing back against government requests like Dreamhost did. Even the biggest ones can't/won't. It helps that the government is a huge investor in most of them, of course. "Chinese IT company rebuffs government demand for user information on its website". This headline does not exist.
  - geowwy 9y ago
    A lot of that is because Russia and China don't feel very secure compared to the US for various historical/geopolitical reasons. The US govt is known to act ruthlessly when it feels there's an existential threat.
    - rtpg 9y ago
      Feel like this is moving goalposts, especially given the context of this discussion (IT corps protecting their users from the government). Think about the fact that the FBI had to actually get a warrant to even begin talking to Lavabit. They had to actually go through bureaucracy. It was not instantly handed over to them on request.
      - codedokode 9y ago
        But they have successfully shut down the Lavabit as a result.
    - HalfwayToDice 9y ago

thrawnjuxt 9y ago

Should we be afraid of tools like Intellij as well? I have been looking into Kotlin, and really like it so far, but the idea of a backdoor getting added to my apps by the compiler of the language is straight out of a nightmare.

threeseed 9y ago
Just decompile your built JAR files and go through the source code yourself if you're worried. http://www.benf.org/other/cfr/ http://www.benf.org/other/cfr/ Also JetBrains is based in Czech Republic not Russia.
- rounce 9y ago
  JetBrains is registered in the Czech Republic but most development takes place in St Petersburg.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

WillReplyfFood 9y ago

Yeah, remember what they did to lavabit.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

burnte 9y ago

Lavabit.

sschueller 9y ago

Couldn't you say the exact same thing about any company in the United States? Instead of thugs we have payoffs, secret warrants and courts.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]