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In countries were top education is essentially free, i really see no reason anyone should forego it, even if they don't value it as much as others. Sure, there

In countries were top education is essentially free, i really see no reason anyone should forego it, even if they don't value it as much as others. Sure, there is the off chance you might do better without that degree because you can start earlier, but statistically that chance is slim and the benefits of good education will serve you all your life. I understand the anti movement in the US, because of their state of top education in return for lots of money which might never pay off, but this really should not inspire people in europe to drop studies.

eksemplar 9y ago
If there is an anti-movement in the US, there is one here. I mean, anti-vaxxing and flat-earthing became a thing in Denmark around 5-10 years after it became a thing in America. We don't even have the excuse of a broken educational system.
- umanwizard 9y ago
  I'm American and I only became aware of flat earth conspiracy theories 1-2 years ago; has it really been around for 5-10 years?
  - ajdlinux 9y ago
    It's been around for quite a bit longer than that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies
    - CodeCube 9y ago
      my god ... some part of my brain can't accept that anyone actually believes this; that they just love trolling people, to "rustle their jimmies", so to speak.
      - pault 9y ago
        It seems to have gained a lot more traction in the post-post-modern age, where all reality is subjective, opinions are facts, and asserting that something is objectively false is an attack on human rights.
Tenoke 9y ago
>.. i really see no reason anyone should forego it.. >Sure, there is the off chance you might do better without that degree because you can start earlier, but statistically that chance is slim and the benefits of good education will serve you all your life. Well, yes, when you assume all that it would be hard to see why anyone will forego it, however, not everyone is as convinced that e.g. 'the benefits of good education will serve you all your life' and whatever else you do instead during those 4+ years wont.
- Swizec 9y ago
  Being a Harvard Dropout sends a very different signal than being a Unknown Uni Dropout, which in turn sends a very different signal than Never Even Applied or, worse, Didnt Get In Anywhere. Going to uni is beyond valuable. Finishing uni ... 80/20 rule. Unless you wanna work in government or super big corpos, finishing isn’t that useful. Go there for the knowledge, not the paper. Full disclosure: I say this as an extremely bad test taker who dropped out just before graduating after 5 years of undergrad. Just couldn’t make the case anymore that classes are better than making money freelancing. But the excuse and freedom to explore interesting tech? I fear I’m never getting that back. It was amazing
  - eksemplar 9y ago
    Guess it depends on where you live. Here a lot of smaller companies won't hire below a bachelors degree, and at many larger companies you'd need a candidate/master. It's been a bit more open for programmers as there has been a real lack, but these days you won't go far in that profession either if you're self-taught. I'm not judging by the way, it's just how it is here.
    - charlesdm 9y ago
      Where is "here"? You can get great tech jobs in most Western European countries without a degree, but getting your first job will probably be the hardest. Experience > degree. In Europe, where (in most countries) education is free, I would say a degree is even worth less. There is massive "degree inflation". Like, everyone has one. And you can take 5-7+ years to complete undergrad, no problem. I don't know when it became customary to only hire people with a bachelors degree for jobs like a receptionist or a PA, but I don't even understand what a degree signals these days. In most professions it definitely doesn't signal you are capable, not that you are smart.
kidmenot 9y ago
Then again, while I agree with the value of studying for a degree, young people see the vast majority of their slightly older peers with a degree in their hands who can't get a job, so I can see why the young can decide to forego college. This is Italy I'm talking about, I don't know enough about other European countries. While the average youth unemployment rate for Europe is ~19%, ours got as high as 37%. That is a lot, only better than Greece and Spain. There are many more factors to keep into account, such as the undeniable fact that a lot of current youngsters feel entitled just because they have a degree, or flat-out refuse jobs because that's not what they studied for, as if it was beneath them. They don't seem to realize that it's no longer like it was in the past decades, when very few people could access higher education, and were of course preferred in job interviews to people who just went to high school. On the other hand, taxation is extremely high and heavy on entrepreneurs (employees cost ~2x their salary), who then hire under shitty one-off contracts because it costs less, so the whole job market is very hard to get into and very easy to drop off of. Another issue is that there are a bunch of useless degrees, such as this thing called "Political sciences", which makes you pretty much unemployable, and sadly a lot of people choose it, and wonder why they can't find a job. There are also many other factors at play here. It's a shitshow, really. Higher education does have a lot of value in terms of teaching how to solve problems and hopefully teaching you how to network, but there are reasons to either drop out or don't even get into college in the first place.
- tiggybear 9y ago
  Don't forget about the entitlements of the business owners. Many, many, many believe they are entitled to highly skilled and highly educated workers without paying them enough to afford the shittiest house/condo within an unreasonable commute to the office. So at some point it isn't the workers that are being unreasonable. And I'm really curious what you think that point is? What defines who is being unreasonable among the business owner or worker? Or is that just dictated by which socioeconomic class you fall into?
  - marcosdumay 9y ago
    Before landing my first job out of college I had to refuse quite a few offers because I would effectively have to pay to work on them. And that was in a growing economy in a much more young-accepting climate, besides, rent was cheaper by the time. The way you phrased it, it sounds entitled. But I guess the people downvoting your comment have no idea what it is to enter the workforce nowadays.
turk184 9y ago
"Essentially free" has zero meaning--bottom line is that someone's wealth was extracted to pay for it! Whether it is good or bad is another matter, but at the very core of your statement is a lie.
lilbobbytables 9y ago
In the US we also have an arguably poor view on what an "educated" person has to look like, and all the condescension that comes with not being "educated". Specifically, the issue I have in mind is the commonly shitty way that trades are viewed (and trades people not seen as educated). Like plumbers, carpenters, hvac professionals, metal workers, etc. My understanding is that there isn't as much of a divide or poor view of those paths in at least certain parts of Europe. Germany comes to mind, but I certainly could be wrong. In many professions they also don't properly value experience (fresh graduate, with a degree), but that's another issue.
godelski 9y ago
I think a big thing people miss is that people like Gates and Zuckerberg dropped out because they already had a promising product. They still took a gamble, but they were past some of the hurdles and already had a lot of the needed education. Which means your strategy should be going to school so no one gets on your case while you develop your product. And use that school to gather connections and talent. Foregoing school before you have even a mostly developed idea is idiotic. Not saying people didn't make it, ~2000 is a pretty large pool to draw from.
- shimon 9y ago
  They also gambled from a position where, had they failed, they'd have the support of their family and another chance at college. Making such gambles affordable for more people (so you don't have to make the safe choice -- law school or bigco or whatever) is good.

eksemplar 9y ago

If there is an anti-movement in the US, there is one here. I mean, anti-vaxxing and flat-earthing became a thing in Denmark around 5-10 years after it became a thing in America. We don't even have the excuse of a broken educational system.

umanwizard 9y ago
I'm American and I only became aware of flat earth conspiracy theories 1-2 years ago; has it really been around for 5-10 years?
- ajdlinux 9y ago
  It's been around for quite a bit longer than that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies
  - CodeCube 9y ago
    my god ... some part of my brain can't accept that anyone actually believes this; that they just love trolling people, to "rustle their jimmies", so to speak.
    - pault 9y ago
      It seems to have gained a lot more traction in the post-post-modern age, where all reality is subjective, opinions are facts, and asserting that something is objectively false is an attack on human rights.

Tenoke 9y ago

>.. i really see no reason anyone should forego it.. >Sure, there is the off chance you might do better without that degree because you can start earlier, but statistically that chance is slim and the benefits of good education will serve you all your life. Well, yes, when you assume all that it would be hard to see why anyone will forego it, however, not everyone is as convinced that e.g. 'the benefits of good education will serve you all your life' and whatever else you do instead during those 4+ years wont.

Swizec 9y ago
Being a Harvard Dropout sends a very different signal than being a Unknown Uni Dropout, which in turn sends a very different signal than Never Even Applied or, worse, Didnt Get In Anywhere. Going to uni is beyond valuable. Finishing uni ... 80/20 rule. Unless you wanna work in government or super big corpos, finishing isn’t that useful. Go there for the knowledge, not the paper. Full disclosure: I say this as an extremely bad test taker who dropped out just before graduating after 5 years of undergrad. Just couldn’t make the case anymore that classes are better than making money freelancing. But the excuse and freedom to explore interesting tech? I fear I’m never getting that back. It was amazing
- eksemplar 9y ago
  Guess it depends on where you live. Here a lot of smaller companies won't hire below a bachelors degree, and at many larger companies you'd need a candidate/master. It's been a bit more open for programmers as there has been a real lack, but these days you won't go far in that profession either if you're self-taught. I'm not judging by the way, it's just how it is here.
  - charlesdm 9y ago
    Where is "here"? You can get great tech jobs in most Western European countries without a degree, but getting your first job will probably be the hardest. Experience > degree. In Europe, where (in most countries) education is free, I would say a degree is even worth less. There is massive "degree inflation". Like, everyone has one. And you can take 5-7+ years to complete undergrad, no problem. I don't know when it became customary to only hire people with a bachelors degree for jobs like a receptionist or a PA, but I don't even understand what a degree signals these days. In most professions it definitely doesn't signal you are capable, not that you are smart.

kidmenot 9y ago

Then again, while I agree with the value of studying for a degree, young people see the vast majority of their slightly older peers with a degree in their hands who can't get a job, so I can see why the young can decide to forego college. This is Italy I'm talking about, I don't know enough about other European countries. While the average youth unemployment rate for Europe is ~19%, ours got as high as 37%. That is a lot, only better than Greece and Spain. There are many more factors to keep into account, such as the undeniable fact that a lot of current youngsters feel entitled just because they have a degree, or flat-out refuse jobs because that's not what they studied for, as if it was beneath them. They don't seem to realize that it's no longer like it was in the past decades, when very few people could access higher education, and were of course preferred in job interviews to people who just went to high school. On the other hand, taxation is extremely high and heavy on entrepreneurs (employees cost ~2x their salary), who then hire under shitty one-off contracts because it costs less, so the whole job market is very hard to get into and very easy to drop off of. Another issue is that there are a bunch of useless degrees, such as this thing called "Political sciences", which makes you pretty much unemployable, and sadly a lot of people choose it, and wonder why they can't find a job. There are also many other factors at play here. It's a shitshow, really. Higher education does have a lot of value in terms of teaching how to solve problems and hopefully teaching you how to network, but there are reasons to either drop out or don't even get into college in the first place.

tiggybear 9y ago
Don't forget about the entitlements of the business owners. Many, many, many believe they are entitled to highly skilled and highly educated workers without paying them enough to afford the shittiest house/condo within an unreasonable commute to the office. So at some point it isn't the workers that are being unreasonable. And I'm really curious what you think that point is? What defines who is being unreasonable among the business owner or worker? Or is that just dictated by which socioeconomic class you fall into?
- marcosdumay 9y ago
  Before landing my first job out of college I had to refuse quite a few offers because I would effectively have to pay to work on them. And that was in a growing economy in a much more young-accepting climate, besides, rent was cheaper by the time. The way you phrased it, it sounds entitled. But I guess the people downvoting your comment have no idea what it is to enter the workforce nowadays.

turk184 9y ago

"Essentially free" has zero meaning--bottom line is that someone's wealth was extracted to pay for it! Whether it is good or bad is another matter, but at the very core of your statement is a lie.

lilbobbytables 9y ago

In the US we also have an arguably poor view on what an "educated" person has to look like, and all the condescension that comes with not being "educated". Specifically, the issue I have in mind is the commonly shitty way that trades are viewed (and trades people not seen as educated). Like plumbers, carpenters, hvac professionals, metal workers, etc. My understanding is that there isn't as much of a divide or poor view of those paths in at least certain parts of Europe. Germany comes to mind, but I certainly could be wrong. In many professions they also don't properly value experience (fresh graduate, with a degree), but that's another issue.

godelski 9y ago

I think a big thing people miss is that people like Gates and Zuckerberg dropped out because they already had a promising product. They still took a gamble, but they were past some of the hurdles and already had a lot of the needed education. Which means your strategy should be going to school so no one gets on your case while you develop your product. And use that school to gather connections and talent. Foregoing school before you have even a mostly developed idea is idiotic. Not saying people didn't make it, ~2000 is a pretty large pool to draw from.

shimon 9y ago
They also gambled from a position where, had they failed, they'd have the support of their family and another chance at college. Making such gambles affordable for more people (so you don't have to make the safe choice -- law school or bigco or whatever) is good.