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I had a month long heated debate in a eco/alternative economy political party I was a member of a few years back (I'm Danish so we're talking really liberal), a

I had a month long heated debate in a eco/alternative economy political party I was a member of a few years back (I'm Danish so we're talking really liberal), about the value of education. The majority didn't value it, and as such didn't want our political program to support it. It eventually led me to leaving the party because it was just too silly for my blood. I specifically remember when I used a good friend of mine. A dyslexic CS major, as an example of how you could still have a brilliant career through education, disability training and really hard work - and it was put off by arguments like "well if he had dropped out he might've been bill gates, instead of just running an RND department at IBM". I pointed out that the likelihood of severely dyslexic Danes with no education (his age), even having a job was very low statistically, but they would hear none of it, because "most billionaires were dropouts". It would've been nice to have this data back then.

hvidgaard 9y ago
> "well if he had dropped out he might've been bill gates, instead of just running an RND department at IBM". I'm unsure what it's called, but it is most certainly a bad argument. If they instead said: "Here is all dyslexic with an education and their economic impact, and there it is for those without - I believe we should do B because it's most beneficial", but that argument is hard to make - and we KNOW that education is good. It sounds more like they just wanted a lower tax, and education is a rather expensive thing.
- mulmen 9y ago
  Education is only expensive in the short term. In the lifetime of a student it pays for itself many times over.
  - turk184 9y ago
    That was before banker class of billionaires got their greasy paws on it. Nowadays, in the US, higher education is debt serfdom for the majority of higher ed customers.
- eksemplar 9y ago
  This is sidestepping a bit but education isn't a major part of our national budget, and it pays for itself if you look at lifetimes rather than election periods. They weren't against education because of money though, rather because they genuinely believe people are less free, creative and innovative when they go through formal education rather than just being, well, "out there, doing stuff".
  - hvidgaard 9y ago
    > This is sidestepping a bit but education isn't a major part of our national budget, and it pays for itself if you look at lifetimes rather than election periods. That was one of my points, albeit not clearly stated. > because they genuinely believe people are less free, creative and innovative when they go through formal education rather than just being, well, "out there, doing stuff". Seriously? With formal education, I can do everything I could before, and some more. If they want to make human nature argument that I become more ingrained in the set ways of the particular formal education, then they need to invoke some serious behavioral studies and argue exactly why no education is better. I'm not trying to argue with you, it just annoys me that, young I assume, people influence politics without knowing how to make a reasonable argument. Maybe I'm just getting older, but it seems that younger and younger people believe that they have wisdom in their mind, and they need to get it out and not be influenced by old farts.
kayoone 9y ago
In countries were top education is essentially free, i really see no reason anyone should forego it, even if they don't value it as much as others. Sure, there is the off chance you might do better without that degree because you can start earlier, but statistically that chance is slim and the benefits of good education will serve you all your life. I understand the anti movement in the US, because of their state of top education in return for lots of money which might never pay off, but this really should not inspire people in europe to drop studies.
- eksemplar 9y ago
  If there is an anti-movement in the US, there is one here. I mean, anti-vaxxing and flat-earthing became a thing in Denmark around 5-10 years after it became a thing in America. We don't even have the excuse of a broken educational system.
  - umanwizard 9y ago
    I'm American and I only became aware of flat earth conspiracy theories 1-2 years ago; has it really been around for 5-10 years?
    - ajdlinux 9y ago
      It's been around for quite a bit longer than that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies
      - CodeCube 9y ago
        my god ... some part of my brain can't accept that anyone actually believes this; that they just love trolling people, to "rustle their jimmies", so to speak.
        pault 9y ago
        It seems to have gained a lot more traction in the post-post-modern age, where all reality is subjective, opinions are facts, and asserting that something is objectively false is an attack on human rights.
Tenoke 9y ago
The article definitely doesn't 'prove' in any way that education is worth it. You can probably find much more closely applicable data for your specific claim.
- monsieurbanana 9y ago
  No but it helps against their claim that the friend should have drop off to become the next Bill Gate. But then again, when you're with people who say that, the right move is to get the hell away.
  - NicoJuicy 9y ago
    The deal with IBM was made thanks to his parents. Ps. They already had money ;)
    - turk184 9y ago
      I often find this to have been the case. Gates wasn't poor either you know. Neither was Jobs. Not poor like I was in the sense that if all else failed, they could still fall back on their parents' house. I had no backup like that and so the kinds of risks I could take were shaped by the reality of not being able to fail not even once. I have done okay based on where I came from, but I'm just a couple of extra zeros short of the goal now. "Decamillionaire" has a nice ring to it, and am still going to give that a shot.
eutectic 9y ago
It is important to realise that there is a big difference between the value to the individual and the value to society of a university degree. Companies use tertiary education as a proxy for IQ and conscientiousness (or willingness to tolerate bullshit to be less charitable). Not that there is no value in university, but I think in many cases the large financial and opportunity cost does not lead to any great improvement in useful skills.
saiprashanth93 9y ago
The people who are going to say "well if he had dropped out he might've been bill gates, instead of just running an RND department at IBM" are not going to change their mind if you had shown them data.
- danieltillett 9y ago
  Exactly. Data is only ever to used to support your prejudices, not correct them.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
erikb 9y ago
This sounds a lot like Pirates or similar. I bet if you join the conservative party of your country you won't hear things like that.
BeetleB 9y ago
>well if he had dropped out he might've been bill gates, instead of just running an RND department at IBM Respond with: "And if only you were dyslexic you might be running an RND department at IBM instead of doing whatever you're doing now."
numismatex 9y ago
I have a genius IQ, dropped out after starting to work in IT (SysAdmin) at 15. My career fizzled out. "Could've been Bill Gates" talk infuriates me. Looking at how money affects success shows that anyone who thinks otherwise (healthcare, networking, education and the like are benefits of having money) is completely delusional if they think education isn't important or lead to success. Most billionaires are dropouts because Mom and Dad were able to front them cash to get their company rolling. There're exceptions like Jack Ma and the eBay guy, but yeah...

hvidgaard 9y ago

> "well if he had dropped out he might've been bill gates, instead of just running an RND department at IBM". I'm unsure what it's called, but it is most certainly a bad argument. If they instead said: "Here is all dyslexic with an education and their economic impact, and there it is for those without - I believe we should do B because it's most beneficial", but that argument is hard to make - and we KNOW that education is good. It sounds more like they just wanted a lower tax, and education is a rather expensive thing.

mulmen 9y ago
Education is only expensive in the short term. In the lifetime of a student it pays for itself many times over.
- turk184 9y ago
  That was before banker class of billionaires got their greasy paws on it. Nowadays, in the US, higher education is debt serfdom for the majority of higher ed customers.
eksemplar 9y ago
This is sidestepping a bit but education isn't a major part of our national budget, and it pays for itself if you look at lifetimes rather than election periods. They weren't against education because of money though, rather because they genuinely believe people are less free, creative and innovative when they go through formal education rather than just being, well, "out there, doing stuff".
- hvidgaard 9y ago
  > This is sidestepping a bit but education isn't a major part of our national budget, and it pays for itself if you look at lifetimes rather than election periods. That was one of my points, albeit not clearly stated. > because they genuinely believe people are less free, creative and innovative when they go through formal education rather than just being, well, "out there, doing stuff". Seriously? With formal education, I can do everything I could before, and some more. If they want to make human nature argument that I become more ingrained in the set ways of the particular formal education, then they need to invoke some serious behavioral studies and argue exactly why no education is better. I'm not trying to argue with you, it just annoys me that, young I assume, people influence politics without knowing how to make a reasonable argument. Maybe I'm just getting older, but it seems that younger and younger people believe that they have wisdom in their mind, and they need to get it out and not be influenced by old farts.

kayoone 9y ago

In countries were top education is essentially free, i really see no reason anyone should forego it, even if they don't value it as much as others. Sure, there is the off chance you might do better without that degree because you can start earlier, but statistically that chance is slim and the benefits of good education will serve you all your life. I understand the anti movement in the US, because of their state of top education in return for lots of money which might never pay off, but this really should not inspire people in europe to drop studies.

eksemplar 9y ago
If there is an anti-movement in the US, there is one here. I mean, anti-vaxxing and flat-earthing became a thing in Denmark around 5-10 years after it became a thing in America. We don't even have the excuse of a broken educational system.
- umanwizard 9y ago
  I'm American and I only became aware of flat earth conspiracy theories 1-2 years ago; has it really been around for 5-10 years?
  - ajdlinux 9y ago
    It's been around for quite a bit longer than that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies
    - CodeCube 9y ago
      my god ... some part of my brain can't accept that anyone actually believes this; that they just love trolling people, to "rustle their jimmies", so to speak.
      - pault 9y ago
        It seems to have gained a lot more traction in the post-post-modern age, where all reality is subjective, opinions are facts, and asserting that something is objectively false is an attack on human rights.

Tenoke 9y ago

The article definitely doesn't 'prove' in any way that education is worth it. You can probably find much more closely applicable data for your specific claim.

monsieurbanana 9y ago
No but it helps against their claim that the friend should have drop off to become the next Bill Gate. But then again, when you're with people who say that, the right move is to get the hell away.
- NicoJuicy 9y ago
  The deal with IBM was made thanks to his parents. Ps. They already had money ;)
  - turk184 9y ago
    I often find this to have been the case. Gates wasn't poor either you know. Neither was Jobs. Not poor like I was in the sense that if all else failed, they could still fall back on their parents' house. I had no backup like that and so the kinds of risks I could take were shaped by the reality of not being able to fail not even once. I have done okay based on where I came from, but I'm just a couple of extra zeros short of the goal now. "Decamillionaire" has a nice ring to it, and am still going to give that a shot.

eutectic 9y ago

It is important to realise that there is a big difference between the value to the individual and the value to society of a university degree. Companies use tertiary education as a proxy for IQ and conscientiousness (or willingness to tolerate bullshit to be less charitable). Not that there is no value in university, but I think in many cases the large financial and opportunity cost does not lead to any great improvement in useful skills.

saiprashanth93 9y ago

The people who are going to say "well if he had dropped out he might've been bill gates, instead of just running an RND department at IBM" are not going to change their mind if you had shown them data.

danieltillett 9y ago
Exactly. Data is only ever to used to support your prejudices, not correct them.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

erikb 9y ago

This sounds a lot like Pirates or similar. I bet if you join the conservative party of your country you won't hear things like that.

BeetleB 9y ago

>well if he had dropped out he might've been bill gates, instead of just running an RND department at IBM Respond with: "And if only you were dyslexic you might be running an RND department at IBM instead of doing whatever you're doing now."

numismatex 9y ago

I have a genius IQ, dropped out after starting to work in IT (SysAdmin) at 15. My career fizzled out. "Could've been Bill Gates" talk infuriates me. Looking at how money affects success shows that anyone who thinks otherwise (healthcare, networking, education and the like are benefits of having money) is completely delusional if they think education isn't important or lead to success. Most billionaires are dropouts because Mom and Dad were able to front them cash to get their company rolling. There're exceptions like Jack Ma and the eBay guy, but yeah...