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> This doesn't seem like that bad of an idea. One of the bigger problems with tests is that they tend to become a terrible metric once people start preparing fo

by mcny 9y ago

> This doesn't seem like that bad of an idea. One of the bigger problems with tests is that they tend to become a terrible metric once people start preparing for them specifically (and test-prep can suck the oxegyn out of real education). If the students and teachers don't care about the test, it is much easier (but still difficult) to make a test that gives useful feedback to the school system. Of course, you want students to take it seriously enough while there taking it. I remember when I was a senior in college, my professor asked me to take a test one day. She said it had nothing to do with my grades and it was to compare the outcome of our college's program with other colleges (BS Math). I still gave it my best shot even though I don't remember if I got to see the result. I don't like how you need so many licenses to be a teacher. Most college lecturers do not have a background in education and definitely don't have a license and we do just fine. The licenses just feel like a way to limit supply.

maskedSlacker 9y ago
>I don't like how you need so many licenses to be a teacher. Most college lecturers do not have a background in education and definitely don't have a license and we do just fine. The licenses just feel like a way to limit supply. Teaching adults who pay for the privilege of being in your class is VERY VERY different from teaching children who are forced to be in your class. The latter requires a very special skill set that can only be described as 'managing psychopaths'. The former just requires you to show up and tell them they're on "responsible for the material" (i.e. they're on their own).
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  > The latter requires a very special skill set I'm going to argue against that idea. 1. The bar to become a teacher is quite low. 2. Most of the teachers I've met certainly didn't not have the necessary skills, but they, and the students endured. Being an outstanding teacher required a very special skill set.
- elgenie 9y ago
  That 'managing psychopaths' portion of the teacher skill set sure seems similar to that required of babysitters.
  - cyphar 9y ago
    Babysitters generally don't need to manage more 15 children all at once (none of which are related or have known each other for a very long time), in a setting that is not their home, for longer periods of time than they are with their families, for the purpose of education and not play. There are transferrable skills, but they're transferrable in the way that making buildings out of LEGO is transferrable to building actual buildings. There are large differences and a whole host of other challenges. [I'm not a teacher, but I have a few friends that are teachers or training to be teachers.]
    - mcny 9y ago
      > Babysitters generally don't need to manage more 15 children all at once Sorry for going off-topic but I come from a small school and I don't understand how it is acceptable for class size to be huge (40+ students in a class is considered acceptable). I mean I get it if the class is led by someone extraordinary like Richard Feynman and everyone wants to be in his lectures but as others have said most teachers are not celebrities. Plus, I don't think just because someone went through the motions of getting a license thirty years ago and all the certification conferences means that they are decent teachers today.
      - cyphar 9y ago
        It boils down to lack of funding and lack of teachers. Lack of new teachers -- as well as absolutely insanely strong unions -- are also some of the reasons why teachers effectively have tenure at schools. In Australia, teachers can be moved around schools (in a given state) as well, which is even more flexible than just tenure at a university.
        mcny 9y ago
- jnbiche 9y ago
  > The latter requires a very special skill set that can only be described as 'managing psychopaths'. And without exception, every teacher I've ever spoken with (including several in my family) has told me that this skill is something you have to learn on the job. All of them, regardless of what route they took to become a teacher, were unprepared for managing classroom discipline. And it took all of them a year or two to learn how to manage classrooms (some teachers never learn this skill). I strongly agree that the licensing is just a way to limit supply. I'm not against unions per se, but in this matter, the teacher's union is a serious impediment to educational achievement in this country. It should be much easier to hire and fire teachers in this country. And teachers should be much better paid.
nradov 9y ago
Are you certain that most college lecturers do just fine? I have heard multiple complaints from students at California public colleges about lecturers who could barely speak English.
- tbihl 9y ago
  That complaint has been around as long as there have been lazy students. When lazy students find themselves in a class taught by a foreigner with a thick accent, they almost invariably blame the accent (barely speaks English) for their own failures, which, as often as not, probably have more to do with students' own laziness.

by mcny 9y ago

maskedSlacker 9y ago

>I don't like how you need so many licenses to be a teacher. Most college lecturers do not have a background in education and definitely don't have a license and we do just fine. The licenses just feel like a way to limit supply. Teaching adults who pay for the privilege of being in your class is VERY VERY different from teaching children who are forced to be in your class. The latter requires a very special skill set that can only be described as 'managing psychopaths'. The former just requires you to show up and tell them they're on "responsible for the material" (i.e. they're on their own).

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
> The latter requires a very special skill set I'm going to argue against that idea. 1. The bar to become a teacher is quite low. 2. Most of the teachers I've met certainly didn't not have the necessary skills, but they, and the students endured. Being an outstanding teacher required a very special skill set.
elgenie 9y ago
That 'managing psychopaths' portion of the teacher skill set sure seems similar to that required of babysitters.
- cyphar 9y ago
  Babysitters generally don't need to manage more 15 children all at once (none of which are related or have known each other for a very long time), in a setting that is not their home, for longer periods of time than they are with their families, for the purpose of education and not play. There are transferrable skills, but they're transferrable in the way that making buildings out of LEGO is transferrable to building actual buildings. There are large differences and a whole host of other challenges. [I'm not a teacher, but I have a few friends that are teachers or training to be teachers.]
  - mcny 9y ago
    > Babysitters generally don't need to manage more 15 children all at once Sorry for going off-topic but I come from a small school and I don't understand how it is acceptable for class size to be huge (40+ students in a class is considered acceptable). I mean I get it if the class is led by someone extraordinary like Richard Feynman and everyone wants to be in his lectures but as others have said most teachers are not celebrities. Plus, I don't think just because someone went through the motions of getting a license thirty years ago and all the certification conferences means that they are decent teachers today.
    - cyphar 9y ago
      It boils down to lack of funding and lack of teachers. Lack of new teachers -- as well as absolutely insanely strong unions -- are also some of the reasons why teachers effectively have tenure at schools. In Australia, teachers can be moved around schools (in a given state) as well, which is even more flexible than just tenure at a university.
      - mcny 9y ago
jnbiche 9y ago
> The latter requires a very special skill set that can only be described as 'managing psychopaths'. And without exception, every teacher I've ever spoken with (including several in my family) has told me that this skill is something you have to learn on the job. All of them, regardless of what route they took to become a teacher, were unprepared for managing classroom discipline. And it took all of them a year or two to learn how to manage classrooms (some teachers never learn this skill). I strongly agree that the licensing is just a way to limit supply. I'm not against unions per se, but in this matter, the teacher's union is a serious impediment to educational achievement in this country. It should be much easier to hire and fire teachers in this country. And teachers should be much better paid.

nradov 9y ago

Are you certain that most college lecturers do just fine? I have heard multiple complaints from students at California public colleges about lecturers who could barely speak English.

tbihl 9y ago
That complaint has been around as long as there have been lazy students. When lazy students find themselves in a class taught by a foreigner with a thick accent, they almost invariably blame the accent (barely speaks English) for their own failures, which, as often as not, probably have more to do with students' own laziness.