14 ms·

To be fair, at least in the Southeastern US, NextDoor is more...RacistDoor. I've seen people ask the best way to report black people to the cops so they'll be

To be fair, at least in the Southeastern US, NextDoor is more...RacistDoor. I've seen people ask the best way to report black people to the cops so they'll be kept from driving through "our safe neighborhood." It's so full of dog whistles my neighbors dogs bark when I open the app. The only reason NextDoor is freaking out is because they know there's enough of that sort of material to really cause a mass exodus if it ever escaped the neighborhoods it's posted in. That said...it's...a weird issue, to be sure. NextDoor tried to encourage an expectation of privacy but like...who actually expects that? Really. Anyone with a credit card matching the address they key in can get in. It's not the post card only thing any more. I could easily change my billing address on my credit card, sign up for some neighborhood on the west coast, and then change my CC address back. Done. NextDoor has done nothing to actually secure the neighborhood, so it's not like it means anything to say this to the customers. If anything, the neighborhood members could possibly sue NextDoor for overstating the privacy of their posts. I guess the conclusion is: I'm not just throwing my hands up and saying, "Oh well it's online no privacy!" I'm more saying this is probably the absolute worst hill to choose to fight that battle on.

sliverstorm 9y ago
To me it sounds like an old story; content host doesn't want the obligation to moderate & review the vast quantities of content posted to their site. If the content never makes it to reporters, nobody will be plastering their name on the front of the paper demanding NextDoor hire an army of content moderators.
eli 9y ago
I'm not sure why that deserves a "to be fair." I see blatant racism in my Nextdoor in DC too. There's a problem here, but it's not caused by reporters.
- Fezzik 9y ago
  I see quite of it here in Portland, Oregon as well. Certianly more “those people” are a problem posts than I would expect. There is definitely a lot more ire directed at the homeless, but the (apparent) insularity of NextDoor appears to encourage people to show their true colors.
  - mercurysmessage 9y ago
    Time to start exposing them.
koolba 9y ago
No need to change any addresses either. Just pick up one of those visa or Amex gift cards. They let you put anything you’d like in the name and address fields when you’re completing a purchase.
- tyingq 9y ago
  I assume NextDoor is doing an AVS check and expecting a match. The cards you mention fail AVS checks, but with a 'U' code for 'UNAVAILABLE'. Many online sellers will let those sales through. NextDoor likely does not. You can see some of the possible AVS responses here: https://www.chasepaymentech.com/address_verification_service.html https://www.chasepaymentech.com/address_verification_service...
  - dangrossman 9y ago
    You can register some gift/prepaid cards online with the issuer, and enter an address. Then it can pass AVS checks.
    - MichaelGG 9y ago
      Privacy.com gives you one-time cards that, I think, provide a positive response for any address.
- wu_tang_chris 9y ago
  I switched around a couple of times by changing the address on my Square Cash card
beeskneecaps 9y ago
Not saying that you’re right or wrong, but I’m pretty sure you can’t see the entire South-Eastern US from your Nextdoor login. Are you speaking up when you see these examples of racism? (Seriously with the downvotes?)
- kw71 9y ago
  I have not noticed any racist stuff on nextdoor, I think the leads in the groups I have participated in would remove these kinds of messages and their participants. I have been/am involved in three communities, all in the southeast: 1. An upper class neighborhood in a city where whites are a (slim) minority 2. A working class neighborhood in the same city where I seemed to be the only white guy 3. A rural neighborhood where almost everyone is white I am surprised that people would write such things today, when the perils of doing so with your own name are widely understood.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    The penalty for making publicly racist statements is decreasing, IMO; people are still being picked off at the leading edge when they really do go unambiguously too far, but there's an entire industry of thinly disguised racist news media.
vinhboy 9y ago
> To be fair, at least in the Southeastern US, NextDoor is more...RacistDoor. Man, I guess I am not the only one who noticed this. And I live in Sacramento, CA. I am guessing its 10x worse else where.
- wutbrodo 9y ago
  I haven't experienced it, but I've heard the same of other neighborhoods in San Francisco.
  - vinhboy 9y ago
    It's not blatantly racist stuff.. It's random things like "hispanic male in hoodie walking around neighborhood, doesn't look like he belongs"... The first few times you see it, you think, ok whatever, people are just being overly cautious. You might even think it was useful, and you could see yourself reporting such things. But after like the 10th time you see postings like that, you really start to wonder if this is what racial profiling looks like in practice.
    - wutbrodo 9y ago
      Yes, thus is basically what I've heard described
    - lsaferite 9y ago
      Just out of curiosity, how should a resident describe a person that doesn't look like they should be wandering around the neighborhood? I mean, I know most people in my neighborhood and if I saw a random person walking around I'd certainly keep an eye on them. It's technically a public road so they have every right to be there, but it's a cul-de-sac and super uncommon for non-residents to be walking in our neighborhood so it 100% stands out, regardless of skin tone.
      - mercurysmessage 9y ago
        Maybe not pay attention at all unless something actually happens. You have no clue what that person is doing and it's not your business.
randyrand 9y ago
Is racial profiling actually considered racism? I thought it was its own category because it's not a form of prejudice, but instead refers to the use of race based statistical reasoning. I'd rather we keep the line drawn. and not muddy the racist card. e.g. RacialProfilistDoor is more apt
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  Being harassed for no reason except the color of your skin is equally harmful whether it's down to white-supremacist politics or cold statistics.
  - hasenj 9y ago
    What if you also dress and behave like a drug dealer?
    - untog 9y ago
      I think you might be surprised by how often your perception of what a drug dealer looks like and behaves like is incorrect. But still, let's assume you can reliably see this things: sure! It's very reasonable to suspect someone who is acting shady. Because there is likely a reason why they are acting shady. Race doesn't work like that, and that's why it's different. A black person didn't wake up in the morning and decide to dress or act in some way that makes some people suspicious of them. They had no choice in the matter - just simply existing is enough to make you a suspect in some people's eyes.
      - hasenj 9y ago
        I did not mean to imply that only black people act shady. BUT, if someone who looks very suspicious based on their appearance and behaviour (mannerisms, language, choices of clothes, tattoos, etc) it's normal and dare I say _healthy_ for residential (family type) neighborhoods to be suspicious of them. If they also happen to be black, they might want to use the race card "OMG You suspect me because I'm black? Racist! How dare You!" etc, but who cares. I am honestly surprised by the down votes my comment received. If you let criminals into your neighbourhood because you're scared of being called a racist, something is wrong with you.
tristor 9y ago
I find that interesting, because I live in South Texas and I don't really see any racist posts in my neighborhood. Mostly it's just people complaining about people's car alarms going off at night and reporting when package thefts occur. It's pretty low traffic, in general, honestly. I maybe look at it once a month and review all the prior threads for the month.
- kodablah 9y ago
  Same experience here, also in Texas. Nothing racist at all, just dog-got-out and other harmless posts of the like. Occasional political chatter, but not unreasonable.
methodin 9y ago
Pretty sure that is the case everywhere. Old white people having a place to fret about their bubbles being burst.
- cat199 9y ago
  takes one to know one eh?
sharkweek 9y ago
I live in Seattle, and I can tell you from the few times I've been on NextDoor, even in a blue city like ours, I was surprised at how racist people still are, albeit subtly.
- dabockster 9y ago
  Tacoma here. I kept getting hand typed notes in my mailbox for a few months to join NextDoor. Looked it up once and never went back. Too many dogwhistle posts about "undesirable youth" causing all the city's problems.
  - mercurysmessage 9y ago
    This sounds exactly like the kind of app I hate. Do you think it was your neighbors who were giving you the notes?
    - dabockster 9y ago
      > Do you think it was your neighbors who were giving you the notes? Not my direct neighbors, but definitely someone a few streets over. I actually thought that their house was vacant until I received the letter.
  - metalliqaz 9y ago
    Why don't you call it out? Like it seems that this stuff gets going because nobody ever raises their hand and says something, so the people who are left just get into a feedback loop.
    - dabockster 9y ago
      > Why don't you call it out? Because all that will do is create high school style drama about who's more correct. But if you want to get into an eternal hate match between your neighbors full of passive aggressive backstabbing, there is no quicker way than to call them out on their causal racism.
- 9y ago
ChuckMcM 9y ago
I wonder if they could lean into that and show people a different way. The last time this came up they had some tools for helping people recognize they were being racist and think about it.
- shifter 9y ago
  “Our ML system has detected wrong think. Did you know you are being racist? Bad serf!”
  - ChuckMcM 9y ago
    I generally refer to this as the 'We reject being civilized' argument :-). Civilization in this context being the set of rules and norms that impose restrictions on our behavior in exchange for a improvements in the quality of life for everyone in the community. One of the challenges of parenting is trying to explain to your children "why" they should follow the rules in terms they can understand and relate to.
    - z0r 9y ago
      I don't think any company should take on the role of parenting (presumably) grown ups, or worse yet children. I don't appreciate the idea that because an individual parent might teach their children morals and the social contract (nevermind the freedom individual parents have to raise their children according to their own subtle ethical codes) that it would be appropriate for large internet services to do the same for their users with machine learning. It should remain with the people to argue with each other and change their views, not with black box magic woven into the communication medium.
      - otterley 9y ago
        Business are groups of people. They may collectively feel they can work together to advance society in a positive direction; not every business wants to be amoral and purely capitalist. As long as they’re not breaking the law, that seems to me to be a good thing.
Cyranix 9y ago
I hear about racist behavior in NextDoor Seattle as well. The Stranger (local alt weekly publication) has covered it at least once before, as have some other publications. From what I gather, the situation is a microcosm of what we see on a national scale: people who live in neighborhoods with low racial diversity are irrationally afraid of people of color, and NextDoor is their platform of choice. If you don't live in Capitol Hill or Pioneer Square (which face issues of rapid gentrification and homelessness), the local crime stats show that you are vanishingly unlikely to be facing even property crime. Now I really wonder what NextDoor looks like in my (predominantly black, including African immigrants) neighborhood... I'm sure The Stranger will have a field day if anyone actually gets kicked off because of this "don't share with the media" position. And if NextDoor think that media folks aren't already embedded, in every neighborhood group, so they can have access to the kinda-racist goings-on of the platform, they are surely mistaken!
- aaronbrethorst 9y ago
  Don’t even get me started on NextDoor, Seattle, Capitol Hill, and homelessness. Also, don’t forget that a lot of people from the stranger and CHS are Capitol Hill residents and undoubtedly see this content just by virtue of being our neighbors!
  - aaronbrethorst 9y ago
    (also, if you happen to be a Capitol Hill resident, please consider kicking in $10/month to help support the CHS blog, which just officially restarted today: https://www.patreon.com/jseattle https://www.patreon.com/jseattle)
- imaginenore 9y ago
  I don't think they are irrational. Black people, for instance, constitute 13% of the population, but are responsible for 50% of the violent crimes. These are the official police stats.
  - brainfire 9y ago
jimbo999 9y ago
oh you mean like this in the San Francisco Bay Area from two years ago https://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/racial-profiling-via-nextdoorcom/Content?oid=4526919 https://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/racial-profiling-via-...
- beeskneecaps 9y ago
  Yeah or these follow up responses by the company to the problem https://www.wired.com/2016/08/nextdoor-breaks-sacred-design-rule-end-racial-profiling/ https://www.wired.com/2016/08/nextdoor-breaks-sacred-design-...
  - jimbo999 9y ago
    Yeah that is a lovely PR piece, and i watched nextdoor implement that "fix" wired was very generous with the breaking sacred design rule headline, the site wasn't exactly web 3.0 from the beginning and i think that was the point. It's primary audience appears to be "homeowners" (owners from 1-50 years they do not seem to care) who might want to sell their home or are interested in service for their home. So two years later and I personally still see the almost identical "those people" posts across all of San Francisco. A valiant effort but without serious moderation it is meaningless. At a certain point mods in the nextdoor community need to either ban people completely which would cuts away at their fantasy ethos or shadow ban people which basically is the same result. good fences make great neighbors
rrauenza 9y ago
I live in the heart of silicon valley in a very diverse neighborhood. Indian, Jewish, Persian, Chinese, white, Muslim, ... I wouldn't call it racism, but it is other-ism, and it comes from all corners. This person doesn't look like he belongs in our neighborhood -- often it's more about social economic / class -- what vehicle they're driving, how they're dressed, are they a race that doesn't typically live in our mostly diverse neighborhood. We have a lot of burglaries and it just drives up the paranoia.
- ericd 9y ago
  The amount of property crime in at least some parts of SV is pretty ridiculous. My most recent bike was stolen within a month of buying it, to replace another bike that lasted 3 months before being stolen. That was bought to replace a total beater, torture to ride, flat tires, etc. Also stolen, though I can't imagine why. Next Door is also full of posts about broken car windows and stuff stolen from the back seats. So it's understandable that people get a bit antsy about people that they doubt are locals. I haven't noticed overt racism on ND as much as crotchetiness, though. A lot of complaints about the local ice cream truck, for example, and about the number of camper vans parked along certain roads that people are using as housing.
  - dx034 9y ago
    Any idea why property crime is so high? Is it because SV is wealthy (on average) so more attractive for non-local thieves?
    - greggman 9y ago
      or maybe police are under funded for the circumstances? note I have no idea. just guessing at possibilities http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/police-officers-per-capita-rates-employment-for-city-departments.html http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/police-offi...
    - shifter 9y ago
      Most property crime is never solved because the police are stretched thin and they prioritize violent crime. San Jose is a very polarized city with wealthy, safe areas and some extremely sketchy unsafe areas where people get robbed at gunpoint at 2pm. The police have to focus on the crappy areas. One solution would be to split the city up so the residents are better served for their local needs.
wpietri 9y ago
Wow, so many people all over the US with basically the same experience. For those interested in the history of this phenomenon, I strongly recommend the book "Sundown Towns": https://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-American/dp/0743294483 https://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-Americ... My hazy understanding of American racism, which I now know to be wrong, was that it's always been getting better. Sure, slavery, but then the Civil War and an upward climb from there to the Civil Rights era and beyond. Except for the South, I thought. It turns out the US had period after Reconstruction, know as the Nadir [1], when anti-black sentiment and action grew significantly. A wave of ethnic cleansing circa 1890-1920 led to a lot of all-white towns all over the country, ones where non-whites weren't allowed after dark. (Thus the title of the book.) Chapter 11, "The Effect of Sundown Towns on Whites", talks a lot about how growing up in white-only areas leads white people to have enormously distorted perceptions of the dangers of black people. After reading that chapter, the RacistDoor phenomenon made a lot more sense to me. [1] https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=the+nadir&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=the...
- te_chris 9y ago
  It's hard to say if the civil war was even an upward climb. I've been reading a lot of Ta-Neshi Coates recently and he has opened my eyes. The civil war was started by the south in order to allow them to continue exploiting the labour of slaves. It seems those grievances haven't died. Racism and, more importantly, white supremacy is an all-American concept which seems to be inextricably woven through the whole society. https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/537909/ https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/537909/ - highly recommend this.
  - ci5er 9y ago
    My hair is starting to think about peppering itself with white, so I wasn't born yesterday, but I've spent about 1/3 of my adult life in Asia (primarily Japan), about 1/3 in the North of the US split between Yankee-land and the Rocky Mountain region, and about 1/3 in "the South". In the Rocky Mountain region that I was in (and that I was born in), there was no history of slavery or any sort of modern diversity (it was all coal-miners, oil-drillers, and ranchers all the time), so I think we can take that one off the table. As we can Japan - because their issues with racism are different from ours (in the US). That leaves good old Yankee-land and "the South". I am by birth and by culture, not a Southerner, but I will declare that if anyone sees more racism in Shreveport LA (for example) than they do in Chicago or even Terre Haute IN, that is a person that I would assert has never been to the south. I believe generally (based on a whole lotta anecdotal observation - some of which are turning my aging locks white), that Y2K Yankee-land is far more racist than Y2K Dixie. I don't know what it was like in 1960 - the race riots of Detroit in '68 - white flight to the suburbs - any of that. But I do believe that you are giving your own region a pass and the south a diss if you believe that they are more racist than you. EDIT: And it isn't necessarily germane to my parent comment, but I see a lot of use of the phrase "dog-whistle" with no specifics. Can we see more specifics, so that the lesser aware of us can know what you are even talking about, or even get educated on what constitutes a "dog-whistle"?
martin1975 9y ago
and why would you prowl with your car through a neighborhood you don't belong in? sure, happens to be black folk doing it, but this has nothing to do with why they're reporting it as suspicious in one of the million neighborhood watch programs US-wide. We report white guys in a predominantly white neighborhood for all kinds of crap, stealing UPS packages, mail, breaking into cars.... You had to make this about race. And yes, many crimes are committed by black people - check out the Baltimore Sun crime section daily to see how many black on black crimes exist or some of the Chicago newspapers... Why is it more present in blacks? Look up fatherlessness and see how many black sons are abandoned by their father relative to white sons.... Maybe it will make more sense then why people report things that look out of whack in their neighborhoods. I do, I have and I will - color matters very little to me. I go by behaviors.
nuna 9y ago
I like the app for the classifieds, and event posts and updates directly from the city and police department. However there are a lot of older generation posters that complain about everything and anything. Lately in my neighborhood the older generation have been outraged about the new recycling bins and rules. How dare they expect us to sort our own garbage! Actually they are outraged about any change...
rayiner 9y ago
Most “neighborhood” forums have a ton of racism. Try the City-Data forums for Baltimore, or DC Urban Moms. The threads about, say, the racial demographics of the elementary school in some genitrifting neighborhood can get pretty awful.
- lr4444lr 9y ago
  There's a simmering issue underlying this that in only a matter of time will surface in a court battle: if racist attitudes are common in the general population, does making a story out of it (presuming there is no related court filing about illegal discrimination or anything similar) violate a person's "non-notability" status?
southphillyman 9y ago
This is sad to hear but not suprising given my experience reading online local news comments. I live in Mount Airy Philly, a racially mixed and very liberal neighborhood. On my NextDoor racial descriptions usually have to be solicited. It seems that my neighbors are very sensitive to profiling, or at least to being perceived as someone who profiles and I've seen Caucasian members "check" other Caucasian members for leading down that path. That being said the "suspect" is often times AA, but the complaints are always legitimate so as a AA I'm rarely offended.
- shifter 9y ago
  I love that you’ve been downvoted for expressing the “wrong” opinion. /s
loceng 9y ago
They need to own up to the fact it is community they have the power to manage. If they want to govern through censorship then they're going to bother a significant amount of people and turn off another portion who don't see them properly supporting and facilitating a safe online space.

sliverstorm 9y ago

To me it sounds like an old story; content host doesn't want the obligation to moderate & review the vast quantities of content posted to their site. If the content never makes it to reporters, nobody will be plastering their name on the front of the paper demanding NextDoor hire an army of content moderators.

eli 9y ago

I'm not sure why that deserves a "to be fair." I see blatant racism in my Nextdoor in DC too. There's a problem here, but it's not caused by reporters.

Fezzik 9y ago
I see quite of it here in Portland, Oregon as well. Certianly more “those people” are a problem posts than I would expect. There is definitely a lot more ire directed at the homeless, but the (apparent) insularity of NextDoor appears to encourage people to show their true colors.
- mercurysmessage 9y ago
  Time to start exposing them.

koolba 9y ago

No need to change any addresses either. Just pick up one of those visa or Amex gift cards. They let you put anything you’d like in the name and address fields when you’re completing a purchase.

tyingq 9y ago
I assume NextDoor is doing an AVS check and expecting a match. The cards you mention fail AVS checks, but with a 'U' code for 'UNAVAILABLE'. Many online sellers will let those sales through. NextDoor likely does not. You can see some of the possible AVS responses here: https://www.chasepaymentech.com/address_verification_service.html https://www.chasepaymentech.com/address_verification_service...
- dangrossman 9y ago
  You can register some gift/prepaid cards online with the issuer, and enter an address. Then it can pass AVS checks.
  - MichaelGG 9y ago
    Privacy.com gives you one-time cards that, I think, provide a positive response for any address.
wu_tang_chris 9y ago
I switched around a couple of times by changing the address on my Square Cash card

beeskneecaps 9y ago

Not saying that you’re right or wrong, but I’m pretty sure you can’t see the entire South-Eastern US from your Nextdoor login. Are you speaking up when you see these examples of racism? (Seriously with the downvotes?)

kw71 9y ago
I have not noticed any racist stuff on nextdoor, I think the leads in the groups I have participated in would remove these kinds of messages and their participants. I have been/am involved in three communities, all in the southeast: 1. An upper class neighborhood in a city where whites are a (slim) minority 2. A working class neighborhood in the same city where I seemed to be the only white guy 3. A rural neighborhood where almost everyone is white I am surprised that people would write such things today, when the perils of doing so with your own name are widely understood.
- pjc50 9y ago
  The penalty for making publicly racist statements is decreasing, IMO; people are still being picked off at the leading edge when they really do go unambiguously too far, but there's an entire industry of thinly disguised racist news media.

vinhboy 9y ago

> To be fair, at least in the Southeastern US, NextDoor is more...RacistDoor. Man, I guess I am not the only one who noticed this. And I live in Sacramento, CA. I am guessing its 10x worse else where.

wutbrodo 9y ago
I haven't experienced it, but I've heard the same of other neighborhoods in San Francisco.
- vinhboy 9y ago
  It's not blatantly racist stuff.. It's random things like "hispanic male in hoodie walking around neighborhood, doesn't look like he belongs"... The first few times you see it, you think, ok whatever, people are just being overly cautious. You might even think it was useful, and you could see yourself reporting such things. But after like the 10th time you see postings like that, you really start to wonder if this is what racial profiling looks like in practice.
  - wutbrodo 9y ago
    Yes, thus is basically what I've heard described
  - lsaferite 9y ago
    Just out of curiosity, how should a resident describe a person that doesn't look like they should be wandering around the neighborhood? I mean, I know most people in my neighborhood and if I saw a random person walking around I'd certainly keep an eye on them. It's technically a public road so they have every right to be there, but it's a cul-de-sac and super uncommon for non-residents to be walking in our neighborhood so it 100% stands out, regardless of skin tone.
    - mercurysmessage 9y ago
      Maybe not pay attention at all unless something actually happens. You have no clue what that person is doing and it's not your business.

randyrand 9y ago

Is racial profiling actually considered racism? I thought it was its own category because it's not a form of prejudice, but instead refers to the use of race based statistical reasoning. I'd rather we keep the line drawn. and not muddy the racist card. e.g. RacialProfilistDoor is more apt

PhasmaFelis 9y ago
Being harassed for no reason except the color of your skin is equally harmful whether it's down to white-supremacist politics or cold statistics.
- hasenj 9y ago
  What if you also dress and behave like a drug dealer?
  - untog 9y ago
    I think you might be surprised by how often your perception of what a drug dealer looks like and behaves like is incorrect. But still, let's assume you can reliably see this things: sure! It's very reasonable to suspect someone who is acting shady. Because there is likely a reason why they are acting shady. Race doesn't work like that, and that's why it's different. A black person didn't wake up in the morning and decide to dress or act in some way that makes some people suspicious of them. They had no choice in the matter - just simply existing is enough to make you a suspect in some people's eyes.
    - hasenj 9y ago
      I did not mean to imply that only black people act shady. BUT, if someone who looks very suspicious based on their appearance and behaviour (mannerisms, language, choices of clothes, tattoos, etc) it's normal and dare I say _healthy_ for residential (family type) neighborhoods to be suspicious of them. If they also happen to be black, they might want to use the race card "OMG You suspect me because I'm black? Racist! How dare You!" etc, but who cares. I am honestly surprised by the down votes my comment received. If you let criminals into your neighbourhood because you're scared of being called a racist, something is wrong with you.

tristor 9y ago

I find that interesting, because I live in South Texas and I don't really see any racist posts in my neighborhood. Mostly it's just people complaining about people's car alarms going off at night and reporting when package thefts occur. It's pretty low traffic, in general, honestly. I maybe look at it once a month and review all the prior threads for the month.

kodablah 9y ago
Same experience here, also in Texas. Nothing racist at all, just dog-got-out and other harmless posts of the like. Occasional political chatter, but not unreasonable.

methodin 9y ago

Pretty sure that is the case everywhere. Old white people having a place to fret about their bubbles being burst.

cat199 9y ago
takes one to know one eh?

sharkweek 9y ago

I live in Seattle, and I can tell you from the few times I've been on NextDoor, even in a blue city like ours, I was surprised at how racist people still are, albeit subtly.

dabockster 9y ago
Tacoma here. I kept getting hand typed notes in my mailbox for a few months to join NextDoor. Looked it up once and never went back. Too many dogwhistle posts about "undesirable youth" causing all the city's problems.
- mercurysmessage 9y ago
  This sounds exactly like the kind of app I hate. Do you think it was your neighbors who were giving you the notes?
  - dabockster 9y ago
    > Do you think it was your neighbors who were giving you the notes? Not my direct neighbors, but definitely someone a few streets over. I actually thought that their house was vacant until I received the letter.
- metalliqaz 9y ago
  Why don't you call it out? Like it seems that this stuff gets going because nobody ever raises their hand and says something, so the people who are left just get into a feedback loop.
  - dabockster 9y ago
    > Why don't you call it out? Because all that will do is create high school style drama about who's more correct. But if you want to get into an eternal hate match between your neighbors full of passive aggressive backstabbing, there is no quicker way than to call them out on their causal racism.
9y ago

ChuckMcM 9y ago

I wonder if they could lean into that and show people a different way. The last time this came up they had some tools for helping people recognize they were being racist and think about it.

shifter 9y ago
“Our ML system has detected wrong think. Did you know you are being racist? Bad serf!”
- ChuckMcM 9y ago
  I generally refer to this as the 'We reject being civilized' argument :-). Civilization in this context being the set of rules and norms that impose restrictions on our behavior in exchange for a improvements in the quality of life for everyone in the community. One of the challenges of parenting is trying to explain to your children "why" they should follow the rules in terms they can understand and relate to.
  - z0r 9y ago
    I don't think any company should take on the role of parenting (presumably) grown ups, or worse yet children. I don't appreciate the idea that because an individual parent might teach their children morals and the social contract (nevermind the freedom individual parents have to raise their children according to their own subtle ethical codes) that it would be appropriate for large internet services to do the same for their users with machine learning. It should remain with the people to argue with each other and change their views, not with black box magic woven into the communication medium.
    - otterley 9y ago
      Business are groups of people. They may collectively feel they can work together to advance society in a positive direction; not every business wants to be amoral and purely capitalist. As long as they’re not breaking the law, that seems to me to be a good thing.

Cyranix 9y ago

I hear about racist behavior in NextDoor Seattle as well. The Stranger (local alt weekly publication) has covered it at least once before, as have some other publications. From what I gather, the situation is a microcosm of what we see on a national scale: people who live in neighborhoods with low racial diversity are irrationally afraid of people of color, and NextDoor is their platform of choice. If you don't live in Capitol Hill or Pioneer Square (which face issues of rapid gentrification and homelessness), the local crime stats show that you are vanishingly unlikely to be facing even property crime. Now I really wonder what NextDoor looks like in my (predominantly black, including African immigrants) neighborhood... I'm sure The Stranger will have a field day if anyone actually gets kicked off because of this "don't share with the media" position. And if NextDoor think that media folks aren't already embedded, in every neighborhood group, so they can have access to the kinda-racist goings-on of the platform, they are surely mistaken!

aaronbrethorst 9y ago
Don’t even get me started on NextDoor, Seattle, Capitol Hill, and homelessness. Also, don’t forget that a lot of people from the stranger and CHS are Capitol Hill residents and undoubtedly see this content just by virtue of being our neighbors!
- aaronbrethorst 9y ago
  (also, if you happen to be a Capitol Hill resident, please consider kicking in $10/month to help support the CHS blog, which just officially restarted today: https://www.patreon.com/jseattle https://www.patreon.com/jseattle)
imaginenore 9y ago
I don't think they are irrational. Black people, for instance, constitute 13% of the population, but are responsible for 50% of the violent crimes. These are the official police stats.
- brainfire 9y ago

jimbo999 9y ago

oh you mean like this in the San Francisco Bay Area from two years ago https://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/racial-profiling-via-nextdoorcom/Content?oid=4526919 https://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/racial-profiling-via-...

beeskneecaps 9y ago
Yeah or these follow up responses by the company to the problem https://www.wired.com/2016/08/nextdoor-breaks-sacred-design-rule-end-racial-profiling/ https://www.wired.com/2016/08/nextdoor-breaks-sacred-design-...
- jimbo999 9y ago
  Yeah that is a lovely PR piece, and i watched nextdoor implement that "fix" wired was very generous with the breaking sacred design rule headline, the site wasn't exactly web 3.0 from the beginning and i think that was the point. It's primary audience appears to be "homeowners" (owners from 1-50 years they do not seem to care) who might want to sell their home or are interested in service for their home. So two years later and I personally still see the almost identical "those people" posts across all of San Francisco. A valiant effort but without serious moderation it is meaningless. At a certain point mods in the nextdoor community need to either ban people completely which would cuts away at their fantasy ethos or shadow ban people which basically is the same result. good fences make great neighbors

rrauenza 9y ago

I live in the heart of silicon valley in a very diverse neighborhood. Indian, Jewish, Persian, Chinese, white, Muslim, ... I wouldn't call it racism, but it is other-ism, and it comes from all corners. This person doesn't look like he belongs in our neighborhood -- often it's more about social economic / class -- what vehicle they're driving, how they're dressed, are they a race that doesn't typically live in our mostly diverse neighborhood. We have a lot of burglaries and it just drives up the paranoia.

ericd 9y ago
The amount of property crime in at least some parts of SV is pretty ridiculous. My most recent bike was stolen within a month of buying it, to replace another bike that lasted 3 months before being stolen. That was bought to replace a total beater, torture to ride, flat tires, etc. Also stolen, though I can't imagine why. Next Door is also full of posts about broken car windows and stuff stolen from the back seats. So it's understandable that people get a bit antsy about people that they doubt are locals. I haven't noticed overt racism on ND as much as crotchetiness, though. A lot of complaints about the local ice cream truck, for example, and about the number of camper vans parked along certain roads that people are using as housing.
- dx034 9y ago
  Any idea why property crime is so high? Is it because SV is wealthy (on average) so more attractive for non-local thieves?
  - greggman 9y ago
    or maybe police are under funded for the circumstances? note I have no idea. just guessing at possibilities http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/police-officers-per-capita-rates-employment-for-city-departments.html http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/police-offi...
  - shifter 9y ago
    Most property crime is never solved because the police are stretched thin and they prioritize violent crime. San Jose is a very polarized city with wealthy, safe areas and some extremely sketchy unsafe areas where people get robbed at gunpoint at 2pm. The police have to focus on the crappy areas. One solution would be to split the city up so the residents are better served for their local needs.

wpietri 9y ago

Wow, so many people all over the US with basically the same experience. For those interested in the history of this phenomenon, I strongly recommend the book "Sundown Towns": https://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-American/dp/0743294483 https://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-Americ... My hazy understanding of American racism, which I now know to be wrong, was that it's always been getting better. Sure, slavery, but then the Civil War and an upward climb from there to the Civil Rights era and beyond. Except for the South, I thought. It turns out the US had period after Reconstruction, know as the Nadir [1], when anti-black sentiment and action grew significantly. A wave of ethnic cleansing circa 1890-1920 led to a lot of all-white towns all over the country, ones where non-whites weren't allowed after dark. (Thus the title of the book.) Chapter 11, "The Effect of Sundown Towns on Whites", talks a lot about how growing up in white-only areas leads white people to have enormously distorted perceptions of the dangers of black people. After reading that chapter, the RacistDoor phenomenon made a lot more sense to me. [1] https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=the+nadir&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=the...

te_chris 9y ago
It's hard to say if the civil war was even an upward climb. I've been reading a lot of Ta-Neshi Coates recently and he has opened my eyes. The civil war was started by the south in order to allow them to continue exploiting the labour of slaves. It seems those grievances haven't died. Racism and, more importantly, white supremacy is an all-American concept which seems to be inextricably woven through the whole society. https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/537909/ https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/537909/ - highly recommend this.
- ci5er 9y ago
  My hair is starting to think about peppering itself with white, so I wasn't born yesterday, but I've spent about 1/3 of my adult life in Asia (primarily Japan), about 1/3 in the North of the US split between Yankee-land and the Rocky Mountain region, and about 1/3 in "the South". In the Rocky Mountain region that I was in (and that I was born in), there was no history of slavery or any sort of modern diversity (it was all coal-miners, oil-drillers, and ranchers all the time), so I think we can take that one off the table. As we can Japan - because their issues with racism are different from ours (in the US). That leaves good old Yankee-land and "the South". I am by birth and by culture, not a Southerner, but I will declare that if anyone sees more racism in Shreveport LA (for example) than they do in Chicago or even Terre Haute IN, that is a person that I would assert has never been to the south. I believe generally (based on a whole lotta anecdotal observation - some of which are turning my aging locks white), that Y2K Yankee-land is far more racist than Y2K Dixie. I don't know what it was like in 1960 - the race riots of Detroit in '68 - white flight to the suburbs - any of that. But I do believe that you are giving your own region a pass and the south a diss if you believe that they are more racist than you. EDIT: And it isn't necessarily germane to my parent comment, but I see a lot of use of the phrase "dog-whistle" with no specifics. Can we see more specifics, so that the lesser aware of us can know what you are even talking about, or even get educated on what constitutes a "dog-whistle"?

martin1975 9y ago

and why would you prowl with your car through a neighborhood you don't belong in? sure, happens to be black folk doing it, but this has nothing to do with why they're reporting it as suspicious in one of the million neighborhood watch programs US-wide. We report white guys in a predominantly white neighborhood for all kinds of crap, stealing UPS packages, mail, breaking into cars.... You had to make this about race. And yes, many crimes are committed by black people - check out the Baltimore Sun crime section daily to see how many black on black crimes exist or some of the Chicago newspapers... Why is it more present in blacks? Look up fatherlessness and see how many black sons are abandoned by their father relative to white sons.... Maybe it will make more sense then why people report things that look out of whack in their neighborhoods. I do, I have and I will - color matters very little to me. I go by behaviors.

nuna 9y ago

I like the app for the classifieds, and event posts and updates directly from the city and police department. However there are a lot of older generation posters that complain about everything and anything. Lately in my neighborhood the older generation have been outraged about the new recycling bins and rules. How dare they expect us to sort our own garbage! Actually they are outraged about any change...

rayiner 9y ago

Most “neighborhood” forums have a ton of racism. Try the City-Data forums for Baltimore, or DC Urban Moms. The threads about, say, the racial demographics of the elementary school in some genitrifting neighborhood can get pretty awful.

lr4444lr 9y ago
There's a simmering issue underlying this that in only a matter of time will surface in a court battle: if racist attitudes are common in the general population, does making a story out of it (presuming there is no related court filing about illegal discrimination or anything similar) violate a person's "non-notability" status?

southphillyman 9y ago

This is sad to hear but not suprising given my experience reading online local news comments. I live in Mount Airy Philly, a racially mixed and very liberal neighborhood. On my NextDoor racial descriptions usually have to be solicited. It seems that my neighbors are very sensitive to profiling, or at least to being perceived as someone who profiles and I've seen Caucasian members "check" other Caucasian members for leading down that path. That being said the "suspect" is often times AA, but the complaints are always legitimate so as a AA I'm rarely offended.

shifter 9y ago
I love that you’ve been downvoted for expressing the “wrong” opinion. /s

loceng 9y ago

They need to own up to the fact it is community they have the power to manage. If they want to govern through censorship then they're going to bother a significant amount of people and turn off another portion who don't see them properly supporting and facilitating a safe online space.