3 ms·

On a tangential note, I don't like how I get served the German version of the site with no obvious way to get the "canonical" one. And then I hate realizing how

On a tangential note, I don't like how I get served the German version of the site with no obvious way to get the "canonical" one. And then I hate realizing how hard it is to combine support of multiple languages and still making everything transparent and accessible. And also, what a huge effort it is to translate pages to different languages while (I think) almost everyone wants to read the English version.

jhasse 9y ago
There's a link at the bottom: https://www.debian.org/News/2017/20171007.en.html https://www.debian.org/News/2017/20171007.en.html
- jstimpfle 9y ago
  I actually looked for a while there (even Ctrl+f'ed) but somehow missed it. My bad. Still it's more of a nuisance to most people and I don't like how the standard URL does not deliver the same page to all.
  - chungy 9y ago
    That's how the web is supposed to work. If you prefer English versions of pages, go into your browser configuration and tell it to prefer English.
    - raimue 9y ago
      I usually prefer English for anything related to development, software engineering, and computers in general. I also run my user interface in English, as it is much easier to search for error messages that way. However, when visiting websites of local places such as restaurants, I prefer the German version and not the one in English meant for tourists. While third-party extensions allow to switch Accept-Language, it is not in the standard UI of modern browsers. For people like me, an advanced setting of Accept-Language per top-level domain would reduce the number of times I have to find the language switcher on the web page to a minimum.
      - fifnir 9y ago
        And it is even worse for expats. There's many sites that force the local language down your throat and it's sooooo annoying...
        stephenr 9y ago
        Google is terrible for this. They haven't yet worked out that a thai ip !== ability to read thai.
    - jstimpfle 9y ago
      > That's how the web is supposed to work. Citation needed. I'm pretty certain there are many proponents for a rather tight mapping from URL to content. Just imagine how hard it is for a search engine to index websites that deliver content based on unpredictable (anything else than URL) input variables.
      - e12e 9y ago
        Eh, it really is how http is intended to work: https://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html https://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html It's no different (arguably a lot better) than cookies.
        jstimpfle 9y ago
        Sure, I know Accept-Language, as should be pretty clear from the discussion. Are you implying that the web is supposed to provide a shitty user experience? In my opinion, there is very limited applicability of Accept-Language. Just because this header exists does not mean you need to make use of it at the slightest perceived opportunity (If all you have is a hammer...).
    - anc84 9y ago
      It is a bit more complicated but I can get if people whose first language is English and who are rarely exposed to other languages cannot understand the struggle. If I prefer to read English texts in their original form (because I understand it perfectly clear) but read texts in my native language in that original language, there is no single setting. It feels weird saying this, but it reeks of a very anglo-american worldview to have a single language preference.
      - majewsky 9y ago
        It's even worse than that. My primary criterion for whether I want English or German is not the language itself, but my expectation of the content being well-maintained. Translated versions are usually lagging behind a bit. On the Arch Linux wiki, I'll always use the English version. On my (German) university's website, I'd rather want the German version.
      - sangnoir 9y ago
        I think gp was being descriptive and not prescriptive - one preferred language is how the web works today (and I speak as a someone who is multilingual). > It feels weird saying this, but it reeks of a very anglo-american worldview to have a single language preference. This is a the browser-side problem[1], so perhaps the browsers authors have an anglo-american worldview? You could file a bug/feature request with your favourite open-source browser. Alternatively, an extension that selectively sends per-website "Accept-Language" headers would work - I haven't checked if one exists but it can be written in a weekend (not sure if Firefox new extension framework will allows messing with the headers). 1. Some sites work around this by allowing you to have a choose a language that overrides the one requested by the browser and persist this in a cookie or your profile. Defaulting to the language requested by the browser is a sane default compared the other alternatives (like Geo-IP look-ups: "Oh, I see you are visiting Germany. I will assume your browser requested English in error and will serve you the German version of the article instead")
        rlpb 9y ago
        > This is a the browser-side problem... No, it sounds like a protocol problem to me. How do I state in an HTTP request: "I speak English and German; if you can serve both and the article was written in one and translated to the other, then give me the original please". That was a long sentence, but it wouldn't have been particularly hard to define well and put into the protocol when it was originally drafted. It's a bit late now, obviously. For example, one could define provenance of a translation much like NTP defines strata. Accept-Language could then have taken this into account.
    - dagw 9y ago
      I don't prefer English, I prefer the original, untranslated version of the site I actually tried visting.
fs111 9y ago
Send the correct language headers and stop complaining.
- jstimpfle 9y ago
  What's the correct ones? The ones that the submitter of the thread had set? My native language? English? Does it depend on the topic?
JosephRedfern 9y ago
A huge effort, yes -- but probably worthwhile. You might be surprised about the number of non-english speakers; I know I was when visiting Italy and Portugal this summer (especially Italy). I suspect that we tend to live in "language bubbles".
- jstimpfle 9y ago
  Yes, that will be true in general... In computer literate circles (like the ones browsing debian.org) there won't be many non English speakers, though.
- squarefoot 9y ago
  "You might be surprised about the number of non-english speakers; I know I was when visiting Italy and Portugal this summer (especially Italy)." As an Italian I have to agree with you; for us old timers it wasn't easy as English didn't become the official 2nd language over here until some decades ago. Both my parents and most relatives as an example knew some French but next to no English, so I had to learn it for myself. Luckily newer generations are getting much better integrated with the rest of the world language-wise; should you visit Italy again and need directions, asking to people in their 20s or 30s will probably be more effective.
  - Yuioup 9y ago
    English is an official language in Italy?
    - squarefoot 9y ago
      Ha, sorry, that was a stretched interpretation of the term official from me, I meant it's the second modern language kids study at most schools.
kk_cz 9y ago
This is determined by the settings in your browser. If you don't like getting German version as default, then change your browser config. Not only you have links to different languages in the bottom of the site, you can even find a link to document describing how the standards works and how to change the settings in bunch of different browsers: https://www.debian.org/intro/cn https://www.debian.org/intro/cn
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- scrollaway 9y ago
  And yet, a bunch of sites including Google don't give a rat's arse about the accept-language http header and do their own thing. Wherever I travel, I get search results served in that language even though I have my browser consistently configured to want English.
  - kk_cz 9y ago
    I agree that in general the support might be better, but for me Google works as expected at least in my current location (Czech Republic). If I set preferred language to Czech I get search form in Czech. After changing settings to English I get English search form (with link to the Czech version underneath the search bar). Just for fun I have also tried Dutch and it seems to work as well (there are some foreign words, but I don't speak Dutch so it might as well be Klingon). Tested in Firefox and in newly opened private Window, so logon / previous sessions wouldn't affect the results.
mejin 9y ago
I don't mind that do much. What does really bother me is when I am on vacation and using incognito or another computer and all Google sites redirect me to the other countries one. Most of the time the only way to change to English is by logging in. Their capchas are even in the local language, making it really difficult for me to do what they want.
fehrm 9y ago
It is actually so frustrating that I decided to go with fedora in my latest trial. It changes every time you click a link, so even if you manage to find the correct link, one click and it is back to whatever language you have at top of browser setting.

jhasse 9y ago

There's a link at the bottom: https://www.debian.org/News/2017/20171007.en.html https://www.debian.org/News/2017/20171007.en.html

jstimpfle 9y ago
I actually looked for a while there (even Ctrl+f'ed) but somehow missed it. My bad. Still it's more of a nuisance to most people and I don't like how the standard URL does not deliver the same page to all.
- chungy 9y ago
  That's how the web is supposed to work. If you prefer English versions of pages, go into your browser configuration and tell it to prefer English.
  - raimue 9y ago
    I usually prefer English for anything related to development, software engineering, and computers in general. I also run my user interface in English, as it is much easier to search for error messages that way. However, when visiting websites of local places such as restaurants, I prefer the German version and not the one in English meant for tourists. While third-party extensions allow to switch Accept-Language, it is not in the standard UI of modern browsers. For people like me, an advanced setting of Accept-Language per top-level domain would reduce the number of times I have to find the language switcher on the web page to a minimum.
    - fifnir 9y ago
      And it is even worse for expats. There's many sites that force the local language down your throat and it's sooooo annoying...
      - stephenr 9y ago
        Google is terrible for this. They haven't yet worked out that a thai ip !== ability to read thai.
  - jstimpfle 9y ago
    > That's how the web is supposed to work. Citation needed. I'm pretty certain there are many proponents for a rather tight mapping from URL to content. Just imagine how hard it is for a search engine to index websites that deliver content based on unpredictable (anything else than URL) input variables.
    - e12e 9y ago
      Eh, it really is how http is intended to work: https://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html https://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html It's no different (arguably a lot better) than cookies.
      - jstimpfle 9y ago
        Sure, I know Accept-Language, as should be pretty clear from the discussion. Are you implying that the web is supposed to provide a shitty user experience? In my opinion, there is very limited applicability of Accept-Language. Just because this header exists does not mean you need to make use of it at the slightest perceived opportunity (If all you have is a hammer...).
  - anc84 9y ago
    It is a bit more complicated but I can get if people whose first language is English and who are rarely exposed to other languages cannot understand the struggle. If I prefer to read English texts in their original form (because I understand it perfectly clear) but read texts in my native language in that original language, there is no single setting. It feels weird saying this, but it reeks of a very anglo-american worldview to have a single language preference.
    - majewsky 9y ago
      It's even worse than that. My primary criterion for whether I want English or German is not the language itself, but my expectation of the content being well-maintained. Translated versions are usually lagging behind a bit. On the Arch Linux wiki, I'll always use the English version. On my (German) university's website, I'd rather want the German version.
    - sangnoir 9y ago
      I think gp was being descriptive and not prescriptive - one preferred language is how the web works today (and I speak as a someone who is multilingual). > It feels weird saying this, but it reeks of a very anglo-american worldview to have a single language preference. This is a the browser-side problem[1], so perhaps the browsers authors have an anglo-american worldview? You could file a bug/feature request with your favourite open-source browser. Alternatively, an extension that selectively sends per-website "Accept-Language" headers would work - I haven't checked if one exists but it can be written in a weekend (not sure if Firefox new extension framework will allows messing with the headers). 1. Some sites work around this by allowing you to have a choose a language that overrides the one requested by the browser and persist this in a cookie or your profile. Defaulting to the language requested by the browser is a sane default compared the other alternatives (like Geo-IP look-ups: "Oh, I see you are visiting Germany. I will assume your browser requested English in error and will serve you the German version of the article instead")
      - rlpb 9y ago
        > This is a the browser-side problem... No, it sounds like a protocol problem to me. How do I state in an HTTP request: "I speak English and German; if you can serve both and the article was written in one and translated to the other, then give me the original please". That was a long sentence, but it wouldn't have been particularly hard to define well and put into the protocol when it was originally drafted. It's a bit late now, obviously. For example, one could define provenance of a translation much like NTP defines strata. Accept-Language could then have taken this into account.
  - dagw 9y ago
    I don't prefer English, I prefer the original, untranslated version of the site I actually tried visting.

fs111 9y ago

Send the correct language headers and stop complaining.

jstimpfle 9y ago
What's the correct ones? The ones that the submitter of the thread had set? My native language? English? Does it depend on the topic?

JosephRedfern 9y ago

A huge effort, yes -- but probably worthwhile. You might be surprised about the number of non-english speakers; I know I was when visiting Italy and Portugal this summer (especially Italy). I suspect that we tend to live in "language bubbles".

jstimpfle 9y ago
Yes, that will be true in general... In computer literate circles (like the ones browsing debian.org) there won't be many non English speakers, though.
squarefoot 9y ago
"You might be surprised about the number of non-english speakers; I know I was when visiting Italy and Portugal this summer (especially Italy)." As an Italian I have to agree with you; for us old timers it wasn't easy as English didn't become the official 2nd language over here until some decades ago. Both my parents and most relatives as an example knew some French but next to no English, so I had to learn it for myself. Luckily newer generations are getting much better integrated with the rest of the world language-wise; should you visit Italy again and need directions, asking to people in their 20s or 30s will probably be more effective.
- Yuioup 9y ago
  English is an official language in Italy?
  - squarefoot 9y ago
    Ha, sorry, that was a stretched interpretation of the term official from me, I meant it's the second modern language kids study at most schools.

kk_cz 9y ago

This is determined by the settings in your browser. If you don't like getting German version as default, then change your browser config. Not only you have links to different languages in the bottom of the site, you can even find a link to document describing how the standards works and how to change the settings in bunch of different browsers: https://www.debian.org/intro/cn https://www.debian.org/intro/cn

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
scrollaway 9y ago
And yet, a bunch of sites including Google don't give a rat's arse about the accept-language http header and do their own thing. Wherever I travel, I get search results served in that language even though I have my browser consistently configured to want English.
- kk_cz 9y ago
  I agree that in general the support might be better, but for me Google works as expected at least in my current location (Czech Republic). If I set preferred language to Czech I get search form in Czech. After changing settings to English I get English search form (with link to the Czech version underneath the search bar). Just for fun I have also tried Dutch and it seems to work as well (there are some foreign words, but I don't speak Dutch so it might as well be Klingon). Tested in Firefox and in newly opened private Window, so logon / previous sessions wouldn't affect the results.

mejin 9y ago

I don't mind that do much. What does really bother me is when I am on vacation and using incognito or another computer and all Google sites redirect me to the other countries one. Most of the time the only way to change to English is by logging in. Their capchas are even in the local language, making it really difficult for me to do what they want.

fehrm 9y ago

It is actually so frustrating that I decided to go with fedora in my latest trial. It changes every time you click a link, so even if you manage to find the correct link, one click and it is back to whatever language you have at top of browser setting.