8 ms·

Eh, after the Trump administration rolls back environmental protection, it will be just another of the many things that makes the US a third world country, like

Eh, after the Trump administration rolls back environmental protection, it will be just another of the many things that makes the US a third world country, like no universal health care, old people working, and people taking almost no vacation.

whathaschanged 9y ago
And yet all the third world people flock here by the millions.
- craftyguy 9y ago
  Don't worry, it takes time for outsider peoples' perception of a place to change. Right now it's still largely an idealized "great country, with opportunities for all" to them.
  - katastic 9y ago
    Or, perhaps, the insiders are the ones with the skewed perceptions since the majority of all of our rights are still intact. I mean, do you guys ever actually follow the end result of your logic? If the USA was as tyrannical as you think, you'd have to be completely insane to stay. Why do you have a death wish? GET OUT! RUN! They're coming for you! Before they read your e-mails and put your family in jail! Oh wait, that's insane. If the USA was as bad as you guys here think, then you wouldn't be so unabashedly criticizing the state. You'd be in jail, or terrified to speak up. Take a trip to China and see how far criticism of the state gets you. And further, are you REALLY suggesting that EVERY immigrant to the USA is too stupid or too uninformed to understand the state of our government? Has nobody here ever talked to someone who lived under a real tyrannical state? Or even... God forbid... googled for a video of an interview with one? Don't worry though. I'm sure this comment will be downvoted into oblivion to protect people's absurd notion that they're under constant threat. It's okay to believe the sky is falling, but it's not okay to suggest people's wild speculation and phobia might be just that... an irrational phobia. In four years, if Trump is voted out of the office, people will entirely forget all their panic and doom-and-gloom and move on to the next moral outrage. They won't sit there and think "Hmm, maybe I was wrong." They'll just move on to the next threat. They're addicted to fear.
    - alsetmusic 9y ago
      > If the USA was as tyrannical as you think, you'd have to be completely insane to stay. I wanted to leave the US during the Bush administration. It’s not easy to do. I would have to gain work in a foreign land in which I possessed valued trade skills, adapt to cultural changes, and build a new network in place of existing ties both socially and professionally. I might have give up my pets, acquire new furniture and amenities, and restart my career from a lower tier. I might have to consider regions with harsher climates than I would prefer. I might not be able to relocate with my spouse if she doesn’t want to, or can’t, do the same. In addition to all of this, there are actually only a handful of countries that would appeal to me (in terms of government and rights afforded to the people). I certainly wouldn't endure all of the above for a system that I found equally corrupt or with fewer protections for its citizens. > Don't worry though. I'm sure this comment will be downvoted into oblivion to protect people's absurd notion that they're under constant threat. Condescension does not bolster your arguments.
      - KekDemaga 9y ago
        >I wanted to leave the US during the Bush administration. It’s not easy to do. I would have to gain work in a foreign land in which I possessed valued trade skills, adapt to cultural changes, and build a new network in place of existing ties both socially and professionally. I might have give up my pets, acquire new furniture and amenities, and restart my career from a lower tier. I might have to consider regions with harsher climates than I would prefer. I might not be able to relocate with my spouse if she doesn’t want to, or can’t, do the same. Isn't the alternative a totalitarian banana republic in your view? Shouldn't these be minor inconveniences in comparison? Syrian refugees have similar concerns when they choose to leave after all, yet they seem to wish to leave and the American left chooses to stay. What is different if not the conditions of the country?
    - Clubber 9y ago
      >since the majority of all of our rights are still intact. It depends on your starting point. If you go back to pre-cold war, they certainly are not. If you go back to the turn of the century, we have even fewer rights. If you go back to the early 1800s, we have even fewer. >Has nobody here ever talked to someone who lived under a real tyrannical state? Or even... God forbid... googled for a video of an interview with one? I think that's a pretty low bar.
- noja 9y ago
  and everyone else is leaving or what?
- evolve2k 9y ago
  And every other rich first world nation.
  - refurb 9y ago
    Nuh uh. About 13% of the world's adults -- or about 630 million people -- say they would like to leave their country and move somewhere else permanently. For roughly 138 million people, that somewhere else would be the U.S. -- the No. 1 desired destination for potential migrants. The U.K. is a distant second at ~40M.[1] [1]http://news.gallup.com/poll/161435/100-million-worldwide-dream-life.aspx http://news.gallup.com/poll/161435/100-million-worldwide-dre...
    - rahkiin 9y ago
      That is an article from 2013. Would anything have changed since, say, 20th of january 2017?
      - refurb 9y ago
        Maybe the number got bigger? We don't have data so who knows?
    - orf 9y ago
      Awesome, the country that built itself on the idea of being open to all the masses no matter their origin, attracts the masses. Who would have thought.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
        It doesn't even though. 78% of people who want to move, want to move somewhere other than the USA.
        adventured 9y ago
        The US is a mere 4.x% of the world's population. The fact that 22% of those people want to move to the US, is extraordinary.
- Retric 9y ago
  On net more people have moved from US to Mexico than Mexico to US over the last decade. So, YMMV.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    That seems off. Do you have a citation? Is that counting only lawful immigration and how many of those where undocumented workers moving back and how many are counted that were legally forced to return to their country? It's actually not easy to get permanent resident visas in Mexico, which makes me think there is something amiss. They also really, really don't like immigration violations in Mexico. I'd be very interested in seeing the sources for this statistic.
    - Clubber 9y ago
      It's true. It's a result of the 2008 crash. Here's an article from 2009-2014. http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/ http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-... Apparently it's still happening: https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-01-18/more-mexicans-are-crossing-border-leave-us-here-s-one-family-s-story https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-01-18/more-mexicans-are-cro...
      - KGIII 9y ago
        I don't doubt that it is true, I doubt that it is telling the whole story. Your links seem to indicate that I am right to be reserved in judgement. Undocumented workers going home or being forced to go home really isn't indicative of any great trend. When American citizens are moving to Mexico at a greater rate than those coming here, that'd be significant.
        Clubber 9y ago
        Here's an article on legal immigration from 2013: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/22/world/americas/for-migrants-new-land-of-opportunity-is-mexico.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/22/world/americas/for-migrant... ...leading to a historic milestone: more Americans have been added to the population of Mexico over the past few years than Mexicans have been added to the population of the United States, according to government data in both nations. The numbers in the article don't line up, or it isn't clear. Americans now make up more than three-quarters of Mexico’s roughly one million documented foreigners Indicates ~750K, then goes on to state the number of Americans legally living and working in Mexico grew to more than 70,000 in 2012
matt_wulfeck 9y ago
Perhaps rather than complaining about $PRESIDENT, you can engage your lawmaker to get things you care about passed into law?
- noja 9y ago
  You can do both.
- lghh 9y ago
  For many of us, our local lawmakers are more in line the with president than just about anyone.
Feniks 9y ago
Ah yes lets blame Trump! He was elected you know. I think it goes deeper than that. America never really embraced the dream of a utopian socialist welfare state. The government is weak, constantly being influenced by moneyed interests and chronically underfunded.
- DougWebb 9y ago
  Ah yes lets blame Trump! He was elected you know. Mistakes happen. The mature thing to do is acknowledge them and work to repair the damage. No one needs to completely reverse everything they believe in to do that.
  - at-fates-hands 9y ago
    I know a LOT of people who felt the same way after living under eight years of Obama. To them, they feel like they have corrected the mistake of the last president.
    - michaelmrose 9y ago
      These people are by and large the enemy and not because of a single election. Their aims are inimical to the interests of me and mine. I no longer regard them as any different than the residents of say Iran, China, or Russia. Like the russians and Iranians as human beings our interests may align and we may work towards the same ends but we are not now be fellow Americans in any meaningful sense.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Makes you wonder how many people that voted for him now regret that.
  - refurb 9y ago
    The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Friday shows that 46% of Likely U.S. Voters approve of President Trump’s job performance. Based on that number, I'd say not that many regret it at all.
gtcode 9y ago
This might be a grammatical error, but the USA is not currently a third world country by any stretch of the imagination.
- bobwaycott 9y ago
  thatfrenchguy didn’t say it is. He said it will be, using makes to indicate the future. There’s no grammatical error here, just a grammatical misunderstanding.
- mirimir 9y ago
  It's heading that way :( And OK, maybe "third world country" isn't really the best term. But what it's heading toward looks a lot like mexico, for example, with a small ultra-wealthy elite, and dysfunctionality for the rest.
  - MichaelGG 9y ago
    For it to head that way, in my experience, you need people to start being incompetent and not caring at all levels of society. A slant towards stupid bureaucracy and paperwork will help too. The US is so, so, incredibly far from remotely getting to that level.
  - katastic 9y ago
    Yep. ONE wrong president and the entire system comes crashing down. We'll all be dead before we can elect another guy. If the world is over, why are you still showing up to work?
    - lghh 9y ago
      Nobody suggested that we'd all be dead or that the world would be over. In fact, talking about the decline of a country probably means that they expect people to be alive in that country to experience it.
    - thatfrenchguy 9y ago
      People still show up at work in developing countries.
gozur88 9y ago
Exactly what environmental protection is Trump rolling back?
- RandVal30142 9y ago
  Restrictions on coal fired power plants is the first that comes to mind: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trumps-epa-to-ease-emissions-restrictions/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trumps-epa-to-ease-emissions-re... Would you like more? edit: No? One example was enough? But I had so much more. :(
  - adventured 9y ago
    I'd like a lot more examples. I'd also like a concise description that indicates how the changes will roll the US back to the intense pollution problems that existed 30+ years ago. The example you reference is modifying rules put in place just a few years ago, so at best it's an obviously mediocre example.
    - RandVal30142 9y ago
      >I'd also like a concise description that indicates how the changes will roll the US back to the intense pollution problems that existed 30+ years ago. Why would I alter my comment to be in tune with what you want when I was responding to this: >Exactly what environmental protection is Trump rolling back?
      - adventured 9y ago
        You said you had a lot more examples to provide, you pretended that nobody wanted them. I do. So let's have all those examples. I asked for a concise description, I didn't ask you to modify your comment. Surely the environmental protection roll-backs will cause pollution problems (even if it's not of the scale that existed 30+ years ago). If it's too much to ask that you explain how your examples will cause meaningful environmental damage, and you don't want to provide such an elaboration, I understand.
refurb 9y ago
This does very little to contribute to the discussion.
at-fates-hands 9y ago
And in another few years, you can elect another Democrat and roll those back to where they were before he was elected and reverse this trend of your so-called nosedive into third world territory. Keep in mind both parties have culpability if you feel like this has been going on before he got into office. One man, even in two terms, can't put this country on a path to where it would be considered a "third world country". It's kind the cool thing about our country.
microcolonel 9y ago
I think you don't realize the difference between the core mission of the EPA, and their explosive growth and new found excess. The EPA (along with the ACE) regularly does ridiculous nonsense like classifying ruts in newly tilled farmland as "wetland" and restricting land use on that basis. Their policies on endangered species encourage land owners to kill and dispose of endangered species so that they are not seen on their land(shoot, shovel, and shut up); because if they do find out, you lose access to your land without compensation. There is a lot in the current EPA mission which could be cut with no negative impact on wildlife, the quality of waterways, that of air, or that of soil. And no, the U.S. is not a third world country in any of those ways. The U.S. is an excellent and successful country, it is the country I want to live in, especially as a dual-citizen with Canada.
Clubber 9y ago
Just being informative, but the during the Cold War (after WWII), the US and whomever were our allies were "first world," the USSR and her allies were the "second world," and anyone who wasn't allied with either was "third world." http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.htm http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.... The spheres of influence don't really apply anymore, but that's the source of the term.
- samfriedman 9y ago
  Interesting etymology, but the term has definitely shifted in meaning from the original cold-war context. "Third world" is pretty much a synonym for "underdeveloped" these days.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    Yes, it's like hearing a malapropism: "statues of limitations," or "all intended purposes." I just sigh in my head and move on.

whathaschanged 9y ago

And yet all the third world people flock here by the millions.

craftyguy 9y ago
Don't worry, it takes time for outsider peoples' perception of a place to change. Right now it's still largely an idealized "great country, with opportunities for all" to them.
- katastic 9y ago
  Or, perhaps, the insiders are the ones with the skewed perceptions since the majority of all of our rights are still intact. I mean, do you guys ever actually follow the end result of your logic? If the USA was as tyrannical as you think, you'd have to be completely insane to stay. Why do you have a death wish? GET OUT! RUN! They're coming for you! Before they read your e-mails and put your family in jail! Oh wait, that's insane. If the USA was as bad as you guys here think, then you wouldn't be so unabashedly criticizing the state. You'd be in jail, or terrified to speak up. Take a trip to China and see how far criticism of the state gets you. And further, are you REALLY suggesting that EVERY immigrant to the USA is too stupid or too uninformed to understand the state of our government? Has nobody here ever talked to someone who lived under a real tyrannical state? Or even... God forbid... googled for a video of an interview with one? Don't worry though. I'm sure this comment will be downvoted into oblivion to protect people's absurd notion that they're under constant threat. It's okay to believe the sky is falling, but it's not okay to suggest people's wild speculation and phobia might be just that... an irrational phobia. In four years, if Trump is voted out of the office, people will entirely forget all their panic and doom-and-gloom and move on to the next moral outrage. They won't sit there and think "Hmm, maybe I was wrong." They'll just move on to the next threat. They're addicted to fear.
  - alsetmusic 9y ago
    > If the USA was as tyrannical as you think, you'd have to be completely insane to stay. I wanted to leave the US during the Bush administration. It’s not easy to do. I would have to gain work in a foreign land in which I possessed valued trade skills, adapt to cultural changes, and build a new network in place of existing ties both socially and professionally. I might have give up my pets, acquire new furniture and amenities, and restart my career from a lower tier. I might have to consider regions with harsher climates than I would prefer. I might not be able to relocate with my spouse if she doesn’t want to, or can’t, do the same. In addition to all of this, there are actually only a handful of countries that would appeal to me (in terms of government and rights afforded to the people). I certainly wouldn't endure all of the above for a system that I found equally corrupt or with fewer protections for its citizens. > Don't worry though. I'm sure this comment will be downvoted into oblivion to protect people's absurd notion that they're under constant threat. Condescension does not bolster your arguments.
    - KekDemaga 9y ago
      >I wanted to leave the US during the Bush administration. It’s not easy to do. I would have to gain work in a foreign land in which I possessed valued trade skills, adapt to cultural changes, and build a new network in place of existing ties both socially and professionally. I might have give up my pets, acquire new furniture and amenities, and restart my career from a lower tier. I might have to consider regions with harsher climates than I would prefer. I might not be able to relocate with my spouse if she doesn’t want to, or can’t, do the same. Isn't the alternative a totalitarian banana republic in your view? Shouldn't these be minor inconveniences in comparison? Syrian refugees have similar concerns when they choose to leave after all, yet they seem to wish to leave and the American left chooses to stay. What is different if not the conditions of the country?
  - Clubber 9y ago
    >since the majority of all of our rights are still intact. It depends on your starting point. If you go back to pre-cold war, they certainly are not. If you go back to the turn of the century, we have even fewer rights. If you go back to the early 1800s, we have even fewer. >Has nobody here ever talked to someone who lived under a real tyrannical state? Or even... God forbid... googled for a video of an interview with one? I think that's a pretty low bar.
noja 9y ago
and everyone else is leaving or what?
evolve2k 9y ago
And every other rich first world nation.
- refurb 9y ago
  Nuh uh. About 13% of the world's adults -- or about 630 million people -- say they would like to leave their country and move somewhere else permanently. For roughly 138 million people, that somewhere else would be the U.S. -- the No. 1 desired destination for potential migrants. The U.K. is a distant second at ~40M.[1] [1]http://news.gallup.com/poll/161435/100-million-worldwide-dream-life.aspx http://news.gallup.com/poll/161435/100-million-worldwide-dre...
  - rahkiin 9y ago
    That is an article from 2013. Would anything have changed since, say, 20th of january 2017?
    - refurb 9y ago
      Maybe the number got bigger? We don't have data so who knows?
  - orf 9y ago
    Awesome, the country that built itself on the idea of being open to all the masses no matter their origin, attracts the masses. Who would have thought.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
      It doesn't even though. 78% of people who want to move, want to move somewhere other than the USA.
      - adventured 9y ago
        The US is a mere 4.x% of the world's population. The fact that 22% of those people want to move to the US, is extraordinary.
Retric 9y ago
On net more people have moved from US to Mexico than Mexico to US over the last decade. So, YMMV.
- KGIII 9y ago
  That seems off. Do you have a citation? Is that counting only lawful immigration and how many of those where undocumented workers moving back and how many are counted that were legally forced to return to their country? It's actually not easy to get permanent resident visas in Mexico, which makes me think there is something amiss. They also really, really don't like immigration violations in Mexico. I'd be very interested in seeing the sources for this statistic.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    It's true. It's a result of the 2008 crash. Here's an article from 2009-2014. http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/ http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-... Apparently it's still happening: https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-01-18/more-mexicans-are-crossing-border-leave-us-here-s-one-family-s-story https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-01-18/more-mexicans-are-cro...
    - KGIII 9y ago
      I don't doubt that it is true, I doubt that it is telling the whole story. Your links seem to indicate that I am right to be reserved in judgement. Undocumented workers going home or being forced to go home really isn't indicative of any great trend. When American citizens are moving to Mexico at a greater rate than those coming here, that'd be significant.
      - Clubber 9y ago
        Here's an article on legal immigration from 2013: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/22/world/americas/for-migrants-new-land-of-opportunity-is-mexico.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/22/world/americas/for-migrant... ...leading to a historic milestone: more Americans have been added to the population of Mexico over the past few years than Mexicans have been added to the population of the United States, according to government data in both nations. The numbers in the article don't line up, or it isn't clear. Americans now make up more than three-quarters of Mexico’s roughly one million documented foreigners Indicates ~750K, then goes on to state the number of Americans legally living and working in Mexico grew to more than 70,000 in 2012

matt_wulfeck 9y ago

Perhaps rather than complaining about $PRESIDENT, you can engage your lawmaker to get things you care about passed into law?

noja 9y ago
You can do both.
lghh 9y ago
For many of us, our local lawmakers are more in line the with president than just about anyone.

Feniks 9y ago

Ah yes lets blame Trump! He was elected you know. I think it goes deeper than that. America never really embraced the dream of a utopian socialist welfare state. The government is weak, constantly being influenced by moneyed interests and chronically underfunded.

DougWebb 9y ago
Ah yes lets blame Trump! He was elected you know. Mistakes happen. The mature thing to do is acknowledge them and work to repair the damage. No one needs to completely reverse everything they believe in to do that.
- at-fates-hands 9y ago
  I know a LOT of people who felt the same way after living under eight years of Obama. To them, they feel like they have corrected the mistake of the last president.
  - michaelmrose 9y ago
    These people are by and large the enemy and not because of a single election. Their aims are inimical to the interests of me and mine. I no longer regard them as any different than the residents of say Iran, China, or Russia. Like the russians and Iranians as human beings our interests may align and we may work towards the same ends but we are not now be fellow Americans in any meaningful sense.
jacquesm 9y ago
Makes you wonder how many people that voted for him now regret that.
- refurb 9y ago
  The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Friday shows that 46% of Likely U.S. Voters approve of President Trump’s job performance. Based on that number, I'd say not that many regret it at all.

gtcode 9y ago

This might be a grammatical error, but the USA is not currently a third world country by any stretch of the imagination.

bobwaycott 9y ago
thatfrenchguy didn’t say it is. He said it will be, using makes to indicate the future. There’s no grammatical error here, just a grammatical misunderstanding.
mirimir 9y ago
It's heading that way :( And OK, maybe "third world country" isn't really the best term. But what it's heading toward looks a lot like mexico, for example, with a small ultra-wealthy elite, and dysfunctionality for the rest.
- MichaelGG 9y ago
  For it to head that way, in my experience, you need people to start being incompetent and not caring at all levels of society. A slant towards stupid bureaucracy and paperwork will help too. The US is so, so, incredibly far from remotely getting to that level.
- katastic 9y ago
  Yep. ONE wrong president and the entire system comes crashing down. We'll all be dead before we can elect another guy. If the world is over, why are you still showing up to work?
  - lghh 9y ago
    Nobody suggested that we'd all be dead or that the world would be over. In fact, talking about the decline of a country probably means that they expect people to be alive in that country to experience it.
  - thatfrenchguy 9y ago
    People still show up at work in developing countries.

gozur88 9y ago

Exactly what environmental protection is Trump rolling back?

RandVal30142 9y ago
Restrictions on coal fired power plants is the first that comes to mind: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trumps-epa-to-ease-emissions-restrictions/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trumps-epa-to-ease-emissions-re... Would you like more? edit: No? One example was enough? But I had so much more. :(
- adventured 9y ago
  I'd like a lot more examples. I'd also like a concise description that indicates how the changes will roll the US back to the intense pollution problems that existed 30+ years ago. The example you reference is modifying rules put in place just a few years ago, so at best it's an obviously mediocre example.
  - RandVal30142 9y ago
    >I'd also like a concise description that indicates how the changes will roll the US back to the intense pollution problems that existed 30+ years ago. Why would I alter my comment to be in tune with what you want when I was responding to this: >Exactly what environmental protection is Trump rolling back?
    - adventured 9y ago
      You said you had a lot more examples to provide, you pretended that nobody wanted them. I do. So let's have all those examples. I asked for a concise description, I didn't ask you to modify your comment. Surely the environmental protection roll-backs will cause pollution problems (even if it's not of the scale that existed 30+ years ago). If it's too much to ask that you explain how your examples will cause meaningful environmental damage, and you don't want to provide such an elaboration, I understand.

refurb 9y ago

This does very little to contribute to the discussion.

at-fates-hands 9y ago

And in another few years, you can elect another Democrat and roll those back to where they were before he was elected and reverse this trend of your so-called nosedive into third world territory. Keep in mind both parties have culpability if you feel like this has been going on before he got into office. One man, even in two terms, can't put this country on a path to where it would be considered a "third world country". It's kind the cool thing about our country.

microcolonel 9y ago

I think you don't realize the difference between the core mission of the EPA, and their explosive growth and new found excess. The EPA (along with the ACE) regularly does ridiculous nonsense like classifying ruts in newly tilled farmland as "wetland" and restricting land use on that basis. Their policies on endangered species encourage land owners to kill and dispose of endangered species so that they are not seen on their land(shoot, shovel, and shut up); because if they do find out, you lose access to your land without compensation. There is a lot in the current EPA mission which could be cut with no negative impact on wildlife, the quality of waterways, that of air, or that of soil. And no, the U.S. is not a third world country in any of those ways. The U.S. is an excellent and successful country, it is the country I want to live in, especially as a dual-citizen with Canada.

Clubber 9y ago

Just being informative, but the during the Cold War (after WWII), the US and whomever were our allies were "first world," the USSR and her allies were the "second world," and anyone who wasn't allied with either was "third world." http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.htm http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.... The spheres of influence don't really apply anymore, but that's the source of the term.

samfriedman 9y ago
Interesting etymology, but the term has definitely shifted in meaning from the original cold-war context. "Third world" is pretty much a synonym for "underdeveloped" these days.
- Clubber 9y ago
  Yes, it's like hearing a malapropism: "statues of limitations," or "all intended purposes." I just sigh in my head and move on.