5 ms·

Well, then in case of identical tests the grader would just automatically pass members of the favored group and destroy the results/evidence right away. See al

Well, then in case of identical tests the grader would just automatically pass members of the favored group and destroy the results/evidence right away. See also, USA history in denying African Americans the right to vote by any means necessary. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2013/06/28/voting_rights_and_the_supreme_court_the_impossible_literacy_test_louisiana.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2013/06/28/voting_right...

ChemicalWarfare 9y ago
... or you can simply enforce a handicap along the lines of how Asians and to a lesser extent Whites get discriminated by US universities admission process today.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- jedrek 9y ago
  And yet all of that absolutely pales in comparison to the legacy advantage almost exclusively white US university students have at the top Ivy League schools. But sure, go chasing the race angle fed to you by the powers that be.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - randallsquared 9y ago
    I have nothing interesting to say about the topic itself, but this struck me: "fed to you by the powers that be". One of the things that's most bizarre to me about rhetoric around culture war topics in America right now is that both sides want to take as an assumption that the other side is in charge. I'm not sure if this is more because, as a practical matter, existential threats tend to produce more alarm and action, or if it's more about the American love of the come-from-behind-to-win underdog trope.
    - thriftwy 9y ago
      Exactly the same thing happens in Russian discourse. Both major "sides" see themself as suppressed and the other as being in charge. That allows to throw tantrums without ever admitting of mistakes. I wonder if it's universal in the age of learned helplessness.
      - throwawayjava 9y ago
        > in the age of learned helplessness It's nothing so new...
    - sidlls 9y ago
      What's this "both sides" and "assumptions"? People who have wealth tend to have much better access to politicians and more control over the economic and social conditions and constraints of a society. Consider for example this: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B# https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli... There isn't a need to assume anything. To the extent it's possible to be in a social science, it is a fact that the connected elite (e.g. those who attend Ivy Leagues as a result of their wealth) is "in charge." It's debatable to the extent the data permit, but the "side" asserting the non-elite are "in charge" doesn't have much to offer on that front.
    - kelukelugames 9y ago
      What you point out is true in most political discussions, but I don't believe it is the case here. The powers that be are not Republicans or Democrats. They are the schools and the alums.
  - hduwvzvshsuz 9y ago
    Actually it's Jewish advantage at ivy league schools. We can't consider jews white only when it's beneficial to our narrative
    - Draco_Au 9y ago
      Go fly a kite buddy.
    - eesmith 9y ago
      For decades there was a policy to limit the number of Jews accepted to the ivy league. http://www.businessinsider.com/the-ivy-leagues-history-of-discriminating-against-jews-2014-12?r=US&IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/the-ivy-leagues-history-of-di... : > Here's how Karabel sums up the new changes approved in 1926, which would effectively allow the Harvard administration to limit its Jewish student population: > The committee decisively rejected an admissions policy based on scholarship alone, stating that "it is neither feasible nor desirable to raise the standards of the College so high that none but brilliant scholars can enter" while stipulating that "the standards ought never to be so high for serious and ambitious students of average intelligence." > When the faculty formally approved the report eight days later, Lowell was further elated, for they also approved measures making the admissions process even more subjective. In particular, the faculty called on [Committee on Admissions chairman Henry Pennypacker] to interview as many applicants as possible to gather additional information on "character and fitness and the promise of the greatest usefulness in the future as a result of a Harvard education." Henceforth, declared the faculty, a passport-sized photo would be "required as an essential part of the application for admissions." > Elite colleges also began to use legacy admissions during this period — giving preference to children of alumni — in order to maintain a predominantly Protestant student body, Karabel explains.
      - hduwvzvshsuz 9y ago
        Harvard is 25% Jewish bud. Sorry but you're wrong. They make up like 1% of the population if that
        9y ago
  - Osmium 9y ago
    > pales in comparison It's not a competition... To acknowledge one problem does not mean ignoring others. There is very real discrimination against people of Asian heritage in the US college system, with very similar parallels to discrimination against Jewish people in the past. To pretend this doesn't exist does all of the real individuals who've experienced it a disservice, as it would be a disservice to pretend that the extensive, institutional racism against black people is no longer an issue today when it clearly is. These are all problems worthy of attention. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/opinion/is-harvard-unfair-to-asian-americans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/opinion/is-harvard-unfair... "A similar injustice is at work today, against Asian-Americans. To get into the top schools, they need SAT scores that are about 140 points higher than those of their white peers." Edit to add: I don't know what the solution to this is, or what should be done. I just know if I was one of those people rejected, I'd feel pretty bad. And as a privileged majority, I want to be judged on my merits, I don't want to benefit from racism or xenophobia, if someone is better than me then they deserve my spot. And I've got to speak loudly about it (even though I'd much rather stay out of political discussions online), because to do otherwise is to passively accept the advantages given to me by this institutionalized racism, which is almost as bad as explicitly endorsing it. We've got to acknowledge it, talk about it ... Second edit: One very actionable thing is to make clear issues of access and discrimination are important issues when your college comes calling for donations. Ask them for their statistics, what their plans and intentions are. If enough people did it, this would matter. It would make a difference.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - wallace_f 9y ago
      The discrimination against Asians is in some cases arguably not that much worse than discrimination against Whites, or even sometimes data shows Whites are discriminated against more. Looking at LizzyM scores, for the most part Whites and Asians receive similar acceptance rates with similar scores, but in some cases Asians receive preference. You can see this w/ scores about 520 and 3.8(1). However, Asians are admitted as a far greater proportion of their race than Whites. Asians are about 5% of US population, but can make up over 40% of incoming classes in med school, while Whites, who are over 60% of the US population, were only 37%, in this typical example at Northwestern(1). Blacks, through affirmative action, enjoy a relatively equal proportion of matriculants as Whites, even though Blacks score on average many standard deviations lower than Whites and Asians. In many cases, a majority of Blacks are accepted with scores that Whites and Asians have, as data shows, a 0% chance of acceptance with. So what is fair? Right now, it is hardest to get in to med school as a White, but that is so extremely politically incorrect that no one dare say it. www.feinberg.northwestern.edu/admissions/how-to-apply/class-profile.html https://schools.studentdoctor.net/lizzym_score https://schools.studentdoctor.net/lizzym_score
  - oh_sigh 9y ago
    Sure it pales in comparison. Having your house burgled pales in comparison to being in a high speed crash on a highway, but I still don't want either one. Also, who are 'the powers that be', if not the federal and most state governments which endorses race based admission policy? Oh, and one more thing: In 'civilized Europe', many countries have decided that affirmative action and race based admission standards are indeed racist, and are banned. Are 'the powers that be' operating over there too?
  - kelukelugames 9y ago
    Legacy is bullshit. I don't see how anyone who wants meritocracy can support it. The children of Harvard alums already are privileged and have an edge, but the school gives them an official handicap too?
    - wallace_f 9y ago
      Yep. With all the talk about privilege and White privilege that gets slapped equally on everyone from Trump Jr to Joe the Coalminer... It only adds to the pile of injustice, not subtract from it.
- nradov 9y ago
  If race is a factor in admissions decisions for some schools then I wonder why students don't just pick the one worth the most "points"? AFAIK, there are no objective criteria for classifying people by race. Anyone can choose to identify themselves however they wish.
  - slaveofallah93 9y ago
    Lots of people already do that. You haven't discovered some secret strategy for getting into a US college.
    - wallace_f 9y ago
      Can you point me to cases of overtly White Europeans applying and being admitted to top programs as another race?
      - pochomtoos111 9y ago
        Trump constantly points out the case of Elizabeth "Pocahontas" Warren.
        wallace_f 9y ago
        What? I don't pay attention to Trump's speeches, but my question was asking about acceptance to top programs as a different race. Not a politician elected who claimed partial racial heritage. Can a White guy apply to the top CS program as a Black female, simply because he identifies as one? Where is the line drawn?
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        akhilcacharya 9y ago
        Except Elizabeth Warren had already taught at UPenn and other top schools and was already a well known figure in bankruptcy law...
- kennywinker 9y ago
  I assume you're referring to "affirmative action" type policies. Calling them discrimination seems to me to be intentionally ignoring the history of discrimination affirmative action is trying to undo. Yes, taken in isolation it is discrimination - but a lot of good things taken in isolation seem like bad things. Prision seems barbaric without taking the crime into account.
  - gizmo686 9y ago
    We are talking about mechanisms for discrimination. US collage admissions certainly provide an interesting case.
    - kennywinker 9y ago
      When you start comparing them the differences are obvious and significant. The most important one is that US college admissions weighting is happening in a transparent way, and it was and is subject to intense debate, discussion, and quasi-democratic processes.
- akhilcacharya 9y ago
  Does anybody else feel that comparing not getting into MIT/Harvard/Stanford to being disenfranchised or, in the case of the Soviet example, preventing you from earning a livelihood is a bit ridiculous? At minimum, as an Asian person that did not go to a top school, it feels very elitist.
- smrtinsert 9y ago
  Great laugh, thanks.
482794793792894 9y ago
I think, the idea that aluminussoma had (and which sprung to my mind when reading the title, too), is that the questions and the grading would be identical for Jewish people, but that somehow the questions were engineered to be harder to solve for Jews. Sort of the obvious thing would be to just ask questions about parts of the culture that Jews don't typically experience. But that is what it is - obvious. And then, yeah, it would be interesting to see what they would have come up with instead. What kind of discrepancies there are between cultures. I could for example imagine something like countries with big Jewish population often having currencies that don't deal with floating point numbers and then Jews on average being worse at that. Or maybe revolutionary books not having Hebrew translations, therefore just not being as ingrained into the Jewish culture throughout the generations.

ChemicalWarfare 9y ago

... or you can simply enforce a handicap along the lines of how Asians and to a lesser extent Whites get discriminated by US universities admission process today.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jedrek 9y ago
And yet all of that absolutely pales in comparison to the legacy advantage almost exclusively white US university students have at the top Ivy League schools. But sure, go chasing the race angle fed to you by the powers that be.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- randallsquared 9y ago
  I have nothing interesting to say about the topic itself, but this struck me: "fed to you by the powers that be". One of the things that's most bizarre to me about rhetoric around culture war topics in America right now is that both sides want to take as an assumption that the other side is in charge. I'm not sure if this is more because, as a practical matter, existential threats tend to produce more alarm and action, or if it's more about the American love of the come-from-behind-to-win underdog trope.
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    Exactly the same thing happens in Russian discourse. Both major "sides" see themself as suppressed and the other as being in charge. That allows to throw tantrums without ever admitting of mistakes. I wonder if it's universal in the age of learned helplessness.
    - throwawayjava 9y ago
      > in the age of learned helplessness It's nothing so new...
  - sidlls 9y ago
    What's this "both sides" and "assumptions"? People who have wealth tend to have much better access to politicians and more control over the economic and social conditions and constraints of a society. Consider for example this: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B# https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli... There isn't a need to assume anything. To the extent it's possible to be in a social science, it is a fact that the connected elite (e.g. those who attend Ivy Leagues as a result of their wealth) is "in charge." It's debatable to the extent the data permit, but the "side" asserting the non-elite are "in charge" doesn't have much to offer on that front.
  - kelukelugames 9y ago
    What you point out is true in most political discussions, but I don't believe it is the case here. The powers that be are not Republicans or Democrats. They are the schools and the alums.
- hduwvzvshsuz 9y ago
  Actually it's Jewish advantage at ivy league schools. We can't consider jews white only when it's beneficial to our narrative
  - Draco_Au 9y ago
    Go fly a kite buddy.
  - eesmith 9y ago
    For decades there was a policy to limit the number of Jews accepted to the ivy league. http://www.businessinsider.com/the-ivy-leagues-history-of-discriminating-against-jews-2014-12?r=US&IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/the-ivy-leagues-history-of-di... : > Here's how Karabel sums up the new changes approved in 1926, which would effectively allow the Harvard administration to limit its Jewish student population: > The committee decisively rejected an admissions policy based on scholarship alone, stating that "it is neither feasible nor desirable to raise the standards of the College so high that none but brilliant scholars can enter" while stipulating that "the standards ought never to be so high for serious and ambitious students of average intelligence." > When the faculty formally approved the report eight days later, Lowell was further elated, for they also approved measures making the admissions process even more subjective. In particular, the faculty called on [Committee on Admissions chairman Henry Pennypacker] to interview as many applicants as possible to gather additional information on "character and fitness and the promise of the greatest usefulness in the future as a result of a Harvard education." Henceforth, declared the faculty, a passport-sized photo would be "required as an essential part of the application for admissions." > Elite colleges also began to use legacy admissions during this period — giving preference to children of alumni — in order to maintain a predominantly Protestant student body, Karabel explains.
    - hduwvzvshsuz 9y ago
      Harvard is 25% Jewish bud. Sorry but you're wrong. They make up like 1% of the population if that
      - 9y ago
- Osmium 9y ago
  > pales in comparison It's not a competition... To acknowledge one problem does not mean ignoring others. There is very real discrimination against people of Asian heritage in the US college system, with very similar parallels to discrimination against Jewish people in the past. To pretend this doesn't exist does all of the real individuals who've experienced it a disservice, as it would be a disservice to pretend that the extensive, institutional racism against black people is no longer an issue today when it clearly is. These are all problems worthy of attention. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/opinion/is-harvard-unfair-to-asian-americans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/opinion/is-harvard-unfair... "A similar injustice is at work today, against Asian-Americans. To get into the top schools, they need SAT scores that are about 140 points higher than those of their white peers." Edit to add: I don't know what the solution to this is, or what should be done. I just know if I was one of those people rejected, I'd feel pretty bad. And as a privileged majority, I want to be judged on my merits, I don't want to benefit from racism or xenophobia, if someone is better than me then they deserve my spot. And I've got to speak loudly about it (even though I'd much rather stay out of political discussions online), because to do otherwise is to passively accept the advantages given to me by this institutionalized racism, which is almost as bad as explicitly endorsing it. We've got to acknowledge it, talk about it ... Second edit: One very actionable thing is to make clear issues of access and discrimination are important issues when your college comes calling for donations. Ask them for their statistics, what their plans and intentions are. If enough people did it, this would matter. It would make a difference.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - wallace_f 9y ago
    The discrimination against Asians is in some cases arguably not that much worse than discrimination against Whites, or even sometimes data shows Whites are discriminated against more. Looking at LizzyM scores, for the most part Whites and Asians receive similar acceptance rates with similar scores, but in some cases Asians receive preference. You can see this w/ scores about 520 and 3.8(1). However, Asians are admitted as a far greater proportion of their race than Whites. Asians are about 5% of US population, but can make up over 40% of incoming classes in med school, while Whites, who are over 60% of the US population, were only 37%, in this typical example at Northwestern(1). Blacks, through affirmative action, enjoy a relatively equal proportion of matriculants as Whites, even though Blacks score on average many standard deviations lower than Whites and Asians. In many cases, a majority of Blacks are accepted with scores that Whites and Asians have, as data shows, a 0% chance of acceptance with. So what is fair? Right now, it is hardest to get in to med school as a White, but that is so extremely politically incorrect that no one dare say it. www.feinberg.northwestern.edu/admissions/how-to-apply/class-profile.html https://schools.studentdoctor.net/lizzym_score https://schools.studentdoctor.net/lizzym_score
- oh_sigh 9y ago
  Sure it pales in comparison. Having your house burgled pales in comparison to being in a high speed crash on a highway, but I still don't want either one. Also, who are 'the powers that be', if not the federal and most state governments which endorses race based admission policy? Oh, and one more thing: In 'civilized Europe', many countries have decided that affirmative action and race based admission standards are indeed racist, and are banned. Are 'the powers that be' operating over there too?
- kelukelugames 9y ago
  Legacy is bullshit. I don't see how anyone who wants meritocracy can support it. The children of Harvard alums already are privileged and have an edge, but the school gives them an official handicap too?
  - wallace_f 9y ago
    Yep. With all the talk about privilege and White privilege that gets slapped equally on everyone from Trump Jr to Joe the Coalminer... It only adds to the pile of injustice, not subtract from it.
nradov 9y ago
If race is a factor in admissions decisions for some schools then I wonder why students don't just pick the one worth the most "points"? AFAIK, there are no objective criteria for classifying people by race. Anyone can choose to identify themselves however they wish.
- slaveofallah93 9y ago
  Lots of people already do that. You haven't discovered some secret strategy for getting into a US college.
  - wallace_f 9y ago
    Can you point me to cases of overtly White Europeans applying and being admitted to top programs as another race?
    - pochomtoos111 9y ago
      Trump constantly points out the case of Elizabeth "Pocahontas" Warren.
      - wallace_f 9y ago
        What? I don't pay attention to Trump's speeches, but my question was asking about acceptance to top programs as a different race. Not a politician elected who claimed partial racial heritage. Can a White guy apply to the top CS program as a Black female, simply because he identifies as one? Where is the line drawn?
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - akhilcacharya 9y ago
        Except Elizabeth Warren had already taught at UPenn and other top schools and was already a well known figure in bankruptcy law...
kennywinker 9y ago
I assume you're referring to "affirmative action" type policies. Calling them discrimination seems to me to be intentionally ignoring the history of discrimination affirmative action is trying to undo. Yes, taken in isolation it is discrimination - but a lot of good things taken in isolation seem like bad things. Prision seems barbaric without taking the crime into account.
- gizmo686 9y ago
  We are talking about mechanisms for discrimination. US collage admissions certainly provide an interesting case.
  - kennywinker 9y ago
    When you start comparing them the differences are obvious and significant. The most important one is that US college admissions weighting is happening in a transparent way, and it was and is subject to intense debate, discussion, and quasi-democratic processes.
akhilcacharya 9y ago
Does anybody else feel that comparing not getting into MIT/Harvard/Stanford to being disenfranchised or, in the case of the Soviet example, preventing you from earning a livelihood is a bit ridiculous? At minimum, as an Asian person that did not go to a top school, it feels very elitist.
smrtinsert 9y ago
Great laugh, thanks.

482794793792894 9y ago

I think, the idea that aluminussoma had (and which sprung to my mind when reading the title, too), is that the questions and the grading would be identical for Jewish people, but that somehow the questions were engineered to be harder to solve for Jews. Sort of the obvious thing would be to just ask questions about parts of the culture that Jews don't typically experience. But that is what it is - obvious. And then, yeah, it would be interesting to see what they would have come up with instead. What kind of discrepancies there are between cultures. I could for example imagine something like countries with big Jewish population often having currencies that don't deal with floating point numbers and then Jews on average being worse at that. Or maybe revolutionary books not having Hebrew translations, therefore just not being as ingrained into the Jewish culture throughout the generations.