10 ms·

Too many laws, too many prisoners

293 points by gruseom 16y ago

tptacek 16y ago
In this article I get a whiff of an agenda to challenge things like Honest Services laws, which form part of the case against people like Conrad Black (who bilked millions of dollars out of investors), by making reference to the millions of people serving time for nonviolent drug offenses. This is galling. The majority of those serving time for drug charges are imprisoned because they lack access to skilled lawyers. White collar criminals, particularly at the upper echelons (where virtually everyone convicted of honest services fraud reside), uniformly evade this problem. I suspect that if this article was accompanied with a simple pair of pie charts representing the class of crimes under which people are imprisoned in the US, and their economic status, it would make a simpler and more honest point. Using poor people to spring people who've committed securities fraud from prison is wrong.
- Alex3917 16y ago
  The whole article is pretty questionable. Take this quote for example: "Spending per prisoner [is] about $50,000 in California, where the cost per pupil is but a seventh of that." Yeah, if you count the cost of building prisons but not the cost of building schools. And they're really using the ban on trafficking endangered species as an example of a stupid crime? The fact that there are people in prison for using drugs while people who catch/sell/eat bluefin tuna walk the streets freely is an embarrassment to the country. And it's one thing to complain about being charged for the weight of the whole cannabis plant and not just the buds, but complaining about it being illegal to adulterate drugs is beyond me.
  - anigbrowl 16y ago
    Prison facilities only make up about 10% of the incarceration cost. Annual per capita costs of incarceration in California: http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/laomenus/sections/crim_justice/6_cj_inmatecost.aspx?catid=3 http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/laomenus/sections/crim_justice/... http://www.lao.ca.gov/analysis_2008/education/ed_anl08006.aspx#zzee_link_1_1202764956 http://www.lao.ca.gov/analysis_2008/education/ed_anl08006.as... Education costs are a bit higher than the article suggests, and you are right that they would increase further if building expenses were included. Part of the problem is that most spending is controlled at the county level and many people oppose centralizing education spending or policy at the state or federal level. Other interesting data can be found at the links provided, albeit a year or two behind the latest budget #s.
    - jackolas 16y ago
      Thats 10% in a state with a large budget problem. Every little thing is being looked at there....
      - anigbrowl 16y ago
        You missed the point, which was to allay the parent post's worries about accuracy by providing some more detailed statistics than were available in the article. I am not endorsing the policy behind those numbers. I live in California and it affects me too.
    - Alex3917 16y ago
      How has the cost of providing healthcare gone from $468 to $8768 in 8 years?
      - anigbrowl 16y ago
        Several factors: aging of the inmate population (and higher probability of chronic illness, but people imprisoned under 3 strikes cannot b released on medical parole); higher cost of care in general, for the same reason that health insurance costs have risen; and large payouts for wrongful-death lawsuits due to medical negligence, and subsequent overhaul of prison care. Medical and pharmaceutical services are usually provided by specialty companies that sell both clinical and security expertise. Being a prison doctor pays about $250k/year. Most of the expense goes on a very small percentage of the prisoners, as end-of-life care is the most expensive kind. http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-05-19/news/20904260_1_sick-inmates-care-costs-health-care http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-05-19/news/20904260_1_sick-i...
    - Alex3917 16y ago
      I'm not complaining about the spending, my point was just that it's an unfair comparison to include extraordinary expenses when presenting the costs of housing prisoners but not when presenting the costs of housing students.
      - 16y ago
  - Gormo 16y ago
    What's wrong with the example? Trafficking endangered species might be worth constraining, but is it really worth imprisoning people over? And the specific example was of a guy who was locked up for not having 100% complete documentation when he was importing flowers.
- anigbrowl 16y ago
  It's a long article, almost 4 pages in print. I'm ok with discussing both ends of the social spectrum to establish a universal context. Penology is a frequent topic in the Economist.
macemoneta 16y ago
In the United States, the problem started with the war on drugs. The increasing privatization of the prison system made crime a business opportunity, which in turn lead to more things being criminalized. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg/1000px-US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/US_... But that's not all; prison labor is now used as cheap labor to compete with foreign countries, instituting a new age of under-the-radar slavery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwT6CisM0mU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwT6CisM0mU The more you look at this cyclic process, the more disturbing it becomes.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  Another major part of the problem is that we no longer institutionalize most of the mentally ill (also a phenomenon starting around 1960-70). Many of them become homeless, and a few commit crimes.
  - nickpinkston 16y ago
    Wait - a "major problem" is that a "few commit crimes"? I think the real issue is that the US has some socio-economic issues that we've as yet let unresolved: drugs (as mentioned), policing strategy, judicial/legislative strategy, welfare, education, etc. I don't think institutionalization is a major contributor.
    - yummyfajitas 16y ago
      Just because a small portion of the mentally ill commit crimes does not mean that a small portion of crimes are committed by the mentally ill. A quick google search finds a source claiming that about 10-20% of the prison population (a few hundred thousand) are seriously mentally ill: http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/forensic-psych/content/article/10168/47631 http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/forensic-psych/content/artic...
      - jfarmer 16y ago
jsdalton 16y ago
There's one single paragraph in this entire article that addresses the root of the problem: > In 1970 the proportion of Americans behind bars was below one in 400, compared with today’s one in 100. Since then, the voters, alarmed at a surge in violent crime, have demanded fiercer sentences. Politicians have obliged. New laws have removed from judges much of their discretion to set a sentence that takes full account of the circumstances of the offence. Since no politician wants to be tarred as soft on crime, such laws, mandating minimum sentences, are seldom softened. On the contrary, they tend to get harder. On top of that, you also have an entrenched set of special interests who benefit from the status quo (police unions, prison guard unions, private prisons, etc.), so the pressure on politicians is from two sides. So how do you "solve" a problem that special interests, along with a sizable majority of the voting population, have no interest whatsoever in solving? Without a massive culture shift, you don't.
- nhnifong 16y ago
  How do you start a massive culture shift without a really infectious idea? you don't.
  - woodall 16y ago
    A better question, I think, is "how does something become infectious"? An idea alone is not going to sway the masses. An idea with proper execution and backing might. Think of it like education- a great follow along would be Plato's cave. You can bring one person into the idea-out into the world- but when they go back the majority still cannot understand what they are saying. Because of this you must convince small portions of the population either by education or force so that they may spread this new knowledge. How do you spread said idea? By using human nature as a weapon. A powerful weapon would be confirmation basis. Get the powerful to back your idea- with money, fancy words, anything- and you can get most people to follow along. The weak depend on the powerful for survival- this could be reversed, but not likely to ever happen(see uprising). Even if you are able to infect people with your ideologies you now have the problem of, what if this idea was the wrong? Infections ideas, just as viri in nature, are hard to cure once there is an epidemic. So your idea does not need to be infectious or catchy or even right, it just needs to be adopted. Once you establish a user base you can then use that base to your advantage in order to spread your idea. Interesting reads. Some have nothing really to do with what I said, just allow for a better understanding of what I mean. I am all for bad ideas, because without them how would we know the good ones? [1] http://www.prisonexp.org/ http://www.prisonexp.org/ [2] http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ518618&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ518618 http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment [4] opr.princeton.edu/papers/opr0901.pdf [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_momentum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_momentum [6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_momentum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_momentum [7] http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/194270145.html http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/194270145.... [8] http://core.ecu.edu/psyc/wuenschk/stathelp/Dichot-Not.doc http://core.ecu.edu/psyc/wuenschk/stathelp/Dichot-Not.doc
Alex63 16y ago
As a person with essentially libertarian views, this is a very interesting article. I may be too quick to applaud this article because it supports my own views, but I think it raises a number of legitimate concerns. In particular, I was struck by this point: In many criminal cases, the common-law requirement that a defendant must have a mens rea (ie, he must or should know that he is doing wrong) has been weakened or erased. This is a slope that we have been sliding down for some time. While ignorance of the law has generally been excluded as a defense in criminal cases, our system of laws is becoming so convoluted that it is almost impossible to know and understand the applicable law. Thus we are all at risk. It feels like we keep inching closer to a society where everyone is either a dependent of the state, or at risk of becoming one through regulation and/or prosecution.
- nickpinkston 16y ago
  Yea, I would generally agree with you. The problems of the law is that it's largely made and enforced in a arbitrary and over-complicated way. On a startup side, there is actually is a big difference between common law (e.g. Anglo) and civil law (e.g. Franco) systems - with common law being more advantageous to entrepreneurship because of the reduced risk of arbitrary laws - unlike precedence in common law systems. PDF: http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/eblj/issues/volume1/number2/Smith.pdf http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/eblj/issues/volume1/number2/Smith.p...
  - blue1 16y ago
    But civil law more easily may degrade in a byzantine mess. Here in Italy there are more than 100,000 laws (estimated, for no one really knows, and this is just for national laws, and not including technical regulations). Which means that no one is realistically able to understand what is right and what is not. Under such a system, one lives with sort of a random fatalism.
    - Alex63 16y ago
      Not just random fatalism, but also greater acceptance of the idea that individuals can pay authorities not to enforce the vast and unknowable system of laws.
isnoteasy 16y ago
Sorry but I don't like the title, the number of laws is not correlated to the number of prisoners. So I would prefer a title that try to explain why there are so many people behind bars.
- anigbrowl 16y ago
  Actually the number of laws does correlate with the number of prisoners. Congress creates an average of 55 new offences a year, so there is a constantly expanding range of choices for what to prosecute people with. See http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2008/06/Revisiting-the-Explosive-Growth-of-Federal-Crimes http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2008/06/Revisiting-... (be careful, as there are a few typos in it). This is one of the few issues that thinkers on the left and right can agree about. Depending on which way your politics lean, you can read comments from Justice Stevens and Judge Alex Kozinski, or Justice Scalia and Judge Richard Posner (to pick just a few prominent jurists popular stereotyped as being liberal or conservative). All have expressed opinions about the shortcomings of criminal justice policy and sentencing in particular. The root of the problem is that those who enforce and administer the penal system have a huge economic interest in maintaining or expanding it. While a good many people point to this as an example of why government is bad (monopoly on the use of force etc.), the sad fact is that very often people vote for this sort of thing in referendums. California's 'Three Strikes' law is a famous example. It's a terrible policy IMHO, but it wasn't foisted on the state by the government. 'We the people' put that one in place, along with quite a few others since.
- sorbus 16y ago
  Titles are generally considered secondary to the article, and are often used to grab attention (in the style of newspaper headlines). And expecting a title (a single sentence, at most!) to explain why there are so many people behind bars is a bit illogical.
  - isnoteasy 16y ago
    Another title: "More people in jail because they don't know how to sum", do you note any difference. A not sound title is an indicator of a not sound argument.
dotcoma 16y ago
building jails is a great business in America :(
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  Why is that? I can't understand why you'd need to pay $50k to house a convicted criminal where does all the money go - anyone got a breakdown of expenses? If you allow private corp to build the prison you're always going to get screwed, they can increase the cost per capita each year just short of the amount where it will be worth using another supplier or building your own. That's a big yearly increase.
  - dotcoma 16y ago
    >If you allow private corp to build the prison you're always going to get screwed, they can increase the cost per capita each year just short of the amount where it will be worth using another supplier or building your own. isn't that just about exactly what happens in America? :-(
kiba 16y ago
I think we have seen for ourselves how dangerous democracies can be when mixed with fears. Alas, people will continue to argues that democracy is the best form of government despite its various flaws.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- Alex63 16y ago
  I will defer to Winston Churchill: "Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
  - jacoblyles 16y ago
    "Divine-right Monarchy is the worst form of government, except for all other forms which have been tried" - some guy committing the same error as Winston Churchill a few hundred years earlier.
  - sophacles 16y ago
    Which means we should stop trying to come up with a better one right?
    - Alex63 16y ago
      No. If you have a new alternative, let's hear about it. Churchill wasn't saying there can't be a better system - he was saying that in his view democracy was the best of the alternatives tried to this point.
      - igravious 16y ago
        Well he would say that, being the leader in a democratic system and all.
        16y ago
davidw 16y ago
How is this germane to hacking and/or startups? PS, voting me down won't make the article any more on-topic, and it doesn't matter anyway, I have oodles of this karma shit, and if I have to burn it pointing out the reddit-bait, so be it.
- Alex63 16y ago
  Fair question. Maybe not directly relevant, but I think the article highlights the challenges for business owners and managers who may find themselves subject to criminal prosecution without ever having had any intent to commit a crime.
  - davidw 16y ago
    That applies to pretty much anyone who resides in the US.
    - zackattack 16y ago
      Some idiot cops recently threatened to arrest me for touching a bent pole on the street. I was examining it when they rolled up and then threatened to jail me for destruction of public property. It seems that they view abuse as a job perk.
      - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
        It sounds like they were probably right to make an enquiry as to whether you'd committed wilful damage to public property. Perhaps their tone was out or maybe you were over defensive about a simple enquiry WRT the perpetrator of an apparent crime? In full consideration, genuine question, would you rather cops simply drove by when witnessing people with damaged public property in hand or would you rather they stopped and made some sort of enquiry?
        gruseom 16y ago
        It's not a genuine question. You've already assumed your obvious conclusion by turning "threatened to arrest" into "make an enquiry". Those are not the same, and anyone with the slightest professionalism can easily do the one without the other.
boredguy8 16y ago
The prison-industrial complex is big business, and its political influence is huge. The California Correctional Peace Officers Association in California is scary. They massively outspend other unions in CA: at 1/10th the membership size of the state teacher's union, they spend as much or more annually on lobbying and campaign contributions. Lobbying by the CCPOA led to the passage of the nation's 'toughest' 3-strikes law. Most prison guards in CA earn over $70,000 annually and corrections is 11.2% of the state budge. http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=152718 http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=15271...
sliverstorm 16y ago
> an undercover federal agent had ordered some orchids from him, a few of which arrived without the correct papers. For this, he was charged with making a false statement to a government official, a federal crime punishable by up to five years in prison What? Lying to an undercover agent is criminal? Well, I guess considering you CANNOT TELL THEY ARE AN AGENT that pretty much means lying needs to be treated as criminal, if you are to keep yourself safe.
- Ardit20 16y ago
  Lying can be an offence in many cases. I am not sure about criminal, but defamation for example is basically lying about another person, so too lying to someone about what you are selling, etc. but yeah you do make a good point.
huangm 16y ago
Comparing the growth rates is pretty sobering: 1980 2010 US Population 226MM 307MM = ~36% growth US Prison Inmates 0.5MM 2.3MM = ~360% growth
noonespecial 16y ago
I always thought the tin-hats ought to love this as a conspiracy much more than ufo's or big brother mind control. Its a perfect setup. 1) Pick a minority with an easily identifiable physical trait (so your beat cops don't have to be too bright) 2) Encourage a set of behaviors through entertainment culture that are unique to them, easily identifiable, and just distasteful enough to garner popular support against them without destabilizing society. 3) Arrest them en-mass and incarcerate them in private prisons. 4) Hella-profit. Channel a portion back to #2. Repeat.
TGJ 16y ago
The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Ayn Rand How many laws are really necessary? It's like hate crimes. Is not every crime a hate crime of some sort? Do we really need a specific hate crime? No. But what is happening is the public crying out for the government to do something about the crime in the nation. Since the government cannot take any proactive action the only thing left is to make more laws. Where the problem lies is not the lack of laws but the lack of teeth in the laws. Real punishments need to happen when laws are broken. Chain gangs, whipping and execution need to happen simply to tell every potential lawbreaker that there will be real punishments when laws are broken. As it is now, there are people that commit crimes just to be sent to jail because of the lax atmosphere in the penal system.
zemaj 16y ago
I live in Australia and have been planning to migrate to the US in the near future. However this article has genuinely made me reconsider. I knew there was an incarceration problem in the US, but I didn't realise it was this bad.
- rsheridan6 16y ago
  If you aren't a criminal, you're probably about as likely to be incarcerated in the US as you are to be eaten by a crocodile in Australia. If I were you about be more worried about American crime rates than incarceration rates.
  - cromulent 16y ago
    The chance of being eaten by a crocodile in Australia is about 1 in 20m in any given year (a lot less if you stay in the lower 2/3s of the country, essentially zero for > 95% of the population). The article above indicates that many innocent people in the US are encouraged to plead guilty. I'm inclined to believe the opposite.
    - rsheridan6 16y ago
      That was one of the 99.9% of statistics that were made up on the spot. The point is that being incarcerated for no reason is way down on the list of worries for Americans who aren't criminals - far below random encounters with criminals who haven't been incarcerated, for example. And where does the article does not indicate that many innocent people in the US are encouraged to plead guilty?
      - cromulent 16y ago
        "Innocent defendants may plead guilty in return for a shorter sentence to avoid the risk of a much longer one. A prosecutor can credibly threaten a middle-aged man that he will die in a cell unless he gives evidence against his boss. This is unfair, complains Harvey Silverglate, the author of “Three Felonies a Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent”. If a defence lawyer offers a witness money to testify that his client is innocent, that is bribery. But a prosecutor can legally offer something of far greater value—his freedom—to a witness who says the opposite. The potential for wrongful convictions is obvious."
todayiamme 16y ago
India is far worse. Down here if you're rich enough then the law is your private servant. However, if you're poor then you might just end up serving more than 7 years as an under trial before your court day. It doesn't matter if you're innocent or guilty if you're poor. If you're arrested you have to serve time as an under trial due to the byzantine system. I wish there were some accurate up to date statistics I could link to, but the inaccurate ones themselves are quite telling (http://ncrb.nic.in/PSI2007/prison2007.htm http://ncrb.nic.in/PSI2007/prison2007.htm). More than 54245 people were imprisoned for being under trial in 2007. The irony is that if you're well-connected then you don't even need to spend your time in jail if convicted. The press has a ball with such cases and they are decreasing, but they still exist. On the other hand, I think that a country's justice system is a mirror of the society in which it operates. My real father was a lawyer in Germany and he once explained to me just how different the legal systems of different nations are and just how intertwined they are with the political climate of a country (he's currently doing his PhD on immigration and its socio-economic side-effects which include crime, education etc). Perhaps, the rise of convictions in the US is a result of a society that wants results fast.Without doubt those tax dollars would reap higher returns if they are wisely invested in programs that benefit those in poverty. The ghettos are the root of a lot of crime, and if their conditions are improved and they're given a lifeline then slowly over time things will change. The problem is that just like in India it is far more impressive to be "tough on crime", than to work at a solution that will take longer than your term in office to give returns. The same would apply to a lot of other debates. It is so easy to apply a quick-fix, but so difficult to improve something with decades of hard-work. An interesting question is that if there are any countries at all whose culture promotes such things? P.S. - This paragraph just broke my heart; >>>But in prison she found she was pregnant. After going through labour shackled to a hospital bed, she was allowed only 48 hours to bond with her newborn son. She was released in March, found a job in a shop, and is hoping that her son will get used to having her around.<<< I really don't understand how people can treat other human beings like this?
known 16y ago
Too many laws, too much corruption.
b-man 16y ago
If anyone is interested in digging further in the subject, I highly recommend this documentary[1]. [1] War on Drugs (The Prison Industrial Complex) -- http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=864268000924014458&q=prison+industrial&total=149&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0# http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=864268000924014458&#...
lakeeffect 16y ago
The privatization of prisons is a huge problem whether people want to face it or not. Its a serious problem when people can make profits from having people put in their prisons. The only motivation is to increase profits by having a high utilization of the prisons, by increasing frequency and length of prison terms.
zeynel1 16y ago
but why do you look at this as a united states issue - this a --human-- rights issue - when an unhuman living organism -the government- takes away the freedom of -human- individual this proves once again that human individual lives in a human plantation -the flag-states who owns all the rights to human individual- and human individual is the -slave- of that unhuman organism called the flag-state - the fact that you have not been incarcerated by the flag-state who owns all your rights - does not mean that your freedom has not been violated - this is really a fundamental problem that humans do not yet realize --because-- the unhuman organism successfully keeps humanity -divided- and humans do not yet realize that unhuman organisms are -living- organisms without body -or- bodiless humans - until humans recognized the fact that there were -invisible- organisms called viruses - they could not fight viruses - now it is time to recognize that there are -invisible- living organisms that are -bigger- than humans the unhuman organism has no right over human body - let the government -catch- the criminal who offended a human body - and then deliver him to the family who was offended - deliver the offender to the -human- relatives - if the criminal goes to jail - he spends his time in the gym - he watches tv - he is fed - he doesnt have to work - he is with people like himself - he is actually --happy-- in prison - prison is --not-- a deterrent - catch the killer and hand him to the -mother- http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/06/01/2010-06-01_mother_of_yu_yao_chinese_immigrant_killed_in_pipe_attack_charges_accused_killer_.html http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/06/01/2010-06-... the mother will not let the killer spend time in the gym or watch tv or feed him - she will ---torture--- him until he begs her to -kill- him but she will not kill him as long as she lives - and this is what he deserves - this is what i call a deterrent - this is what i call justice - if you killed someones daughter you dont want to be handed to the mother - this is justice

293 points by gruseom 16y ago

In this article I get a whiff of an agenda to challenge things like Honest Services laws, which form part of the case against people like Conrad Black (who bilked millions of dollars out of investors), by making reference to the millions of people serving time for nonviolent drug offenses. This is galling. The majority of those serving time for drug charges are imprisoned because they lack access to skilled lawyers. White collar criminals, particularly at the upper echelons (where virtually everyone convicted of honest services fraud reside), uniformly evade this problem. I suspect that if this article was accompanied with a simple pair of pie charts representing the class of crimes under which people are imprisoned in the US, and their economic status, it would make a simpler and more honest point. Using poor people to spring people who've committed securities fraud from prison is wrong.

Alex3917 16y ago
The whole article is pretty questionable. Take this quote for example: "Spending per prisoner [is] about $50,000 in California, where the cost per pupil is but a seventh of that." Yeah, if you count the cost of building prisons but not the cost of building schools. And they're really using the ban on trafficking endangered species as an example of a stupid crime? The fact that there are people in prison for using drugs while people who catch/sell/eat bluefin tuna walk the streets freely is an embarrassment to the country. And it's one thing to complain about being charged for the weight of the whole cannabis plant and not just the buds, but complaining about it being illegal to adulterate drugs is beyond me.
- anigbrowl 16y ago
  Prison facilities only make up about 10% of the incarceration cost. Annual per capita costs of incarceration in California: http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/laomenus/sections/crim_justice/6_cj_inmatecost.aspx?catid=3 http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/laomenus/sections/crim_justice/... http://www.lao.ca.gov/analysis_2008/education/ed_anl08006.aspx#zzee_link_1_1202764956 http://www.lao.ca.gov/analysis_2008/education/ed_anl08006.as... Education costs are a bit higher than the article suggests, and you are right that they would increase further if building expenses were included. Part of the problem is that most spending is controlled at the county level and many people oppose centralizing education spending or policy at the state or federal level. Other interesting data can be found at the links provided, albeit a year or two behind the latest budget #s.
  - jackolas 16y ago
    Thats 10% in a state with a large budget problem. Every little thing is being looked at there....
    - anigbrowl 16y ago
      You missed the point, which was to allay the parent post's worries about accuracy by providing some more detailed statistics than were available in the article. I am not endorsing the policy behind those numbers. I live in California and it affects me too.
  - Alex3917 16y ago
    How has the cost of providing healthcare gone from $468 to $8768 in 8 years?
    - anigbrowl 16y ago
      Several factors: aging of the inmate population (and higher probability of chronic illness, but people imprisoned under 3 strikes cannot b released on medical parole); higher cost of care in general, for the same reason that health insurance costs have risen; and large payouts for wrongful-death lawsuits due to medical negligence, and subsequent overhaul of prison care. Medical and pharmaceutical services are usually provided by specialty companies that sell both clinical and security expertise. Being a prison doctor pays about $250k/year. Most of the expense goes on a very small percentage of the prisoners, as end-of-life care is the most expensive kind. http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-05-19/news/20904260_1_sick-inmates-care-costs-health-care http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-05-19/news/20904260_1_sick-i...
  - Alex3917 16y ago
    I'm not complaining about the spending, my point was just that it's an unfair comparison to include extraordinary expenses when presenting the costs of housing prisoners but not when presenting the costs of housing students.
    - 16y ago
- Gormo 16y ago
  What's wrong with the example? Trafficking endangered species might be worth constraining, but is it really worth imprisoning people over? And the specific example was of a guy who was locked up for not having 100% complete documentation when he was importing flowers.
anigbrowl 16y ago
It's a long article, almost 4 pages in print. I'm ok with discussing both ends of the social spectrum to establish a universal context. Penology is a frequent topic in the Economist.

macemoneta 16y ago

In the United States, the problem started with the war on drugs. The increasing privatization of the prison system made crime a business opportunity, which in turn lead to more things being criminalized. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg/1000px-US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/US_... But that's not all; prison labor is now used as cheap labor to compete with foreign countries, instituting a new age of under-the-radar slavery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwT6CisM0mU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwT6CisM0mU The more you look at this cyclic process, the more disturbing it becomes.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
Another major part of the problem is that we no longer institutionalize most of the mentally ill (also a phenomenon starting around 1960-70). Many of them become homeless, and a few commit crimes.
- nickpinkston 16y ago
  Wait - a "major problem" is that a "few commit crimes"? I think the real issue is that the US has some socio-economic issues that we've as yet let unresolved: drugs (as mentioned), policing strategy, judicial/legislative strategy, welfare, education, etc. I don't think institutionalization is a major contributor.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    Just because a small portion of the mentally ill commit crimes does not mean that a small portion of crimes are committed by the mentally ill. A quick google search finds a source claiming that about 10-20% of the prison population (a few hundred thousand) are seriously mentally ill: http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/forensic-psych/content/article/10168/47631 http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/forensic-psych/content/artic...
    - jfarmer 16y ago

jsdalton 16y ago

There's one single paragraph in this entire article that addresses the root of the problem: > In 1970 the proportion of Americans behind bars was below one in 400, compared with today’s one in 100. Since then, the voters, alarmed at a surge in violent crime, have demanded fiercer sentences. Politicians have obliged. New laws have removed from judges much of their discretion to set a sentence that takes full account of the circumstances of the offence. Since no politician wants to be tarred as soft on crime, such laws, mandating minimum sentences, are seldom softened. On the contrary, they tend to get harder. On top of that, you also have an entrenched set of special interests who benefit from the status quo (police unions, prison guard unions, private prisons, etc.), so the pressure on politicians is from two sides. So how do you "solve" a problem that special interests, along with a sizable majority of the voting population, have no interest whatsoever in solving? Without a massive culture shift, you don't.

nhnifong 16y ago
How do you start a massive culture shift without a really infectious idea? you don't.
- woodall 16y ago
  A better question, I think, is "how does something become infectious"? An idea alone is not going to sway the masses. An idea with proper execution and backing might. Think of it like education- a great follow along would be Plato's cave. You can bring one person into the idea-out into the world- but when they go back the majority still cannot understand what they are saying. Because of this you must convince small portions of the population either by education or force so that they may spread this new knowledge. How do you spread said idea? By using human nature as a weapon. A powerful weapon would be confirmation basis. Get the powerful to back your idea- with money, fancy words, anything- and you can get most people to follow along. The weak depend on the powerful for survival- this could be reversed, but not likely to ever happen(see uprising). Even if you are able to infect people with your ideologies you now have the problem of, what if this idea was the wrong? Infections ideas, just as viri in nature, are hard to cure once there is an epidemic. So your idea does not need to be infectious or catchy or even right, it just needs to be adopted. Once you establish a user base you can then use that base to your advantage in order to spread your idea. Interesting reads. Some have nothing really to do with what I said, just allow for a better understanding of what I mean. I am all for bad ideas, because without them how would we know the good ones? [1] http://www.prisonexp.org/ http://www.prisonexp.org/ [2] http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ518618&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ518618 http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment [4] opr.princeton.edu/papers/opr0901.pdf [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_momentum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_momentum [6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_momentum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_momentum [7] http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/194270145.html http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/194270145.... [8] http://core.ecu.edu/psyc/wuenschk/stathelp/Dichot-Not.doc http://core.ecu.edu/psyc/wuenschk/stathelp/Dichot-Not.doc

Alex63 16y ago

As a person with essentially libertarian views, this is a very interesting article. I may be too quick to applaud this article because it supports my own views, but I think it raises a number of legitimate concerns. In particular, I was struck by this point: In many criminal cases, the common-law requirement that a defendant must have a mens rea (ie, he must or should know that he is doing wrong) has been weakened or erased. This is a slope that we have been sliding down for some time. While ignorance of the law has generally been excluded as a defense in criminal cases, our system of laws is becoming so convoluted that it is almost impossible to know and understand the applicable law. Thus we are all at risk. It feels like we keep inching closer to a society where everyone is either a dependent of the state, or at risk of becoming one through regulation and/or prosecution.

nickpinkston 16y ago
Yea, I would generally agree with you. The problems of the law is that it's largely made and enforced in a arbitrary and over-complicated way. On a startup side, there is actually is a big difference between common law (e.g. Anglo) and civil law (e.g. Franco) systems - with common law being more advantageous to entrepreneurship because of the reduced risk of arbitrary laws - unlike precedence in common law systems. PDF: http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/eblj/issues/volume1/number2/Smith.pdf http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/eblj/issues/volume1/number2/Smith.p...
- blue1 16y ago
  But civil law more easily may degrade in a byzantine mess. Here in Italy there are more than 100,000 laws (estimated, for no one really knows, and this is just for national laws, and not including technical regulations). Which means that no one is realistically able to understand what is right and what is not. Under such a system, one lives with sort of a random fatalism.
  - Alex63 16y ago
    Not just random fatalism, but also greater acceptance of the idea that individuals can pay authorities not to enforce the vast and unknowable system of laws.

isnoteasy 16y ago

Sorry but I don't like the title, the number of laws is not correlated to the number of prisoners. So I would prefer a title that try to explain why there are so many people behind bars.

anigbrowl 16y ago
Actually the number of laws does correlate with the number of prisoners. Congress creates an average of 55 new offences a year, so there is a constantly expanding range of choices for what to prosecute people with. See http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2008/06/Revisiting-the-Explosive-Growth-of-Federal-Crimes http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2008/06/Revisiting-... (be careful, as there are a few typos in it). This is one of the few issues that thinkers on the left and right can agree about. Depending on which way your politics lean, you can read comments from Justice Stevens and Judge Alex Kozinski, or Justice Scalia and Judge Richard Posner (to pick just a few prominent jurists popular stereotyped as being liberal or conservative). All have expressed opinions about the shortcomings of criminal justice policy and sentencing in particular. The root of the problem is that those who enforce and administer the penal system have a huge economic interest in maintaining or expanding it. While a good many people point to this as an example of why government is bad (monopoly on the use of force etc.), the sad fact is that very often people vote for this sort of thing in referendums. California's 'Three Strikes' law is a famous example. It's a terrible policy IMHO, but it wasn't foisted on the state by the government. 'We the people' put that one in place, along with quite a few others since.
sorbus 16y ago
Titles are generally considered secondary to the article, and are often used to grab attention (in the style of newspaper headlines). And expecting a title (a single sentence, at most!) to explain why there are so many people behind bars is a bit illogical.
- isnoteasy 16y ago
  Another title: "More people in jail because they don't know how to sum", do you note any difference. A not sound title is an indicator of a not sound argument.

dotcoma 16y ago

building jails is a great business in America :(

pbhjpbhj 16y ago
Why is that? I can't understand why you'd need to pay $50k to house a convicted criminal where does all the money go - anyone got a breakdown of expenses? If you allow private corp to build the prison you're always going to get screwed, they can increase the cost per capita each year just short of the amount where it will be worth using another supplier or building your own. That's a big yearly increase.
- dotcoma 16y ago
  >If you allow private corp to build the prison you're always going to get screwed, they can increase the cost per capita each year just short of the amount where it will be worth using another supplier or building your own. isn't that just about exactly what happens in America? :-(

kiba 16y ago

I think we have seen for ourselves how dangerous democracies can be when mixed with fears. Alas, people will continue to argues that democracy is the best form of government despite its various flaws.

deleted 16y ago
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Alex63 16y ago
I will defer to Winston Churchill: "Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
- jacoblyles 16y ago
  "Divine-right Monarchy is the worst form of government, except for all other forms which have been tried" - some guy committing the same error as Winston Churchill a few hundred years earlier.
- sophacles 16y ago
  Which means we should stop trying to come up with a better one right?
  - Alex63 16y ago
    No. If you have a new alternative, let's hear about it. Churchill wasn't saying there can't be a better system - he was saying that in his view democracy was the best of the alternatives tried to this point.
    - igravious 16y ago
      Well he would say that, being the leader in a democratic system and all.
      - 16y ago

davidw 16y ago

How is this germane to hacking and/or startups? PS, voting me down won't make the article any more on-topic, and it doesn't matter anyway, I have oodles of this karma shit, and if I have to burn it pointing out the reddit-bait, so be it.

Alex63 16y ago
Fair question. Maybe not directly relevant, but I think the article highlights the challenges for business owners and managers who may find themselves subject to criminal prosecution without ever having had any intent to commit a crime.
- davidw 16y ago
  That applies to pretty much anyone who resides in the US.
  - zackattack 16y ago
    Some idiot cops recently threatened to arrest me for touching a bent pole on the street. I was examining it when they rolled up and then threatened to jail me for destruction of public property. It seems that they view abuse as a job perk.
    - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
      It sounds like they were probably right to make an enquiry as to whether you'd committed wilful damage to public property. Perhaps their tone was out or maybe you were over defensive about a simple enquiry WRT the perpetrator of an apparent crime? In full consideration, genuine question, would you rather cops simply drove by when witnessing people with damaged public property in hand or would you rather they stopped and made some sort of enquiry?
      - gruseom 16y ago
        It's not a genuine question. You've already assumed your obvious conclusion by turning "threatened to arrest" into "make an enquiry". Those are not the same, and anyone with the slightest professionalism can easily do the one without the other.

boredguy8 16y ago

The prison-industrial complex is big business, and its political influence is huge. The California Correctional Peace Officers Association in California is scary. They massively outspend other unions in CA: at 1/10th the membership size of the state teacher's union, they spend as much or more annually on lobbying and campaign contributions. Lobbying by the CCPOA led to the passage of the nation's 'toughest' 3-strikes law. Most prison guards in CA earn over $70,000 annually and corrections is 11.2% of the state budge. http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=152718 http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=15271...

sliverstorm 16y ago

> an undercover federal agent had ordered some orchids from him, a few of which arrived without the correct papers. For this, he was charged with making a false statement to a government official, a federal crime punishable by up to five years in prison What? Lying to an undercover agent is criminal? Well, I guess considering you CANNOT TELL THEY ARE AN AGENT that pretty much means lying needs to be treated as criminal, if you are to keep yourself safe.

Ardit20 16y ago
Lying can be an offence in many cases. I am not sure about criminal, but defamation for example is basically lying about another person, so too lying to someone about what you are selling, etc. but yeah you do make a good point.

huangm 16y ago

Comparing the growth rates is pretty sobering: 1980 2010 US Population 226MM 307MM = ~36% growth US Prison Inmates 0.5MM 2.3MM = ~360% growth

noonespecial 16y ago

I always thought the tin-hats ought to love this as a conspiracy much more than ufo's or big brother mind control. Its a perfect setup. 1) Pick a minority with an easily identifiable physical trait (so your beat cops don't have to be too bright) 2) Encourage a set of behaviors through entertainment culture that are unique to them, easily identifiable, and just distasteful enough to garner popular support against them without destabilizing society. 3) Arrest them en-mass and incarcerate them in private prisons. 4) Hella-profit. Channel a portion back to #2. Repeat.

TGJ 16y ago

The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Ayn Rand How many laws are really necessary? It's like hate crimes. Is not every crime a hate crime of some sort? Do we really need a specific hate crime? No. But what is happening is the public crying out for the government to do something about the crime in the nation. Since the government cannot take any proactive action the only thing left is to make more laws. Where the problem lies is not the lack of laws but the lack of teeth in the laws. Real punishments need to happen when laws are broken. Chain gangs, whipping and execution need to happen simply to tell every potential lawbreaker that there will be real punishments when laws are broken. As it is now, there are people that commit crimes just to be sent to jail because of the lax atmosphere in the penal system.

zemaj 16y ago

I live in Australia and have been planning to migrate to the US in the near future. However this article has genuinely made me reconsider. I knew there was an incarceration problem in the US, but I didn't realise it was this bad.

rsheridan6 16y ago
If you aren't a criminal, you're probably about as likely to be incarcerated in the US as you are to be eaten by a crocodile in Australia. If I were you about be more worried about American crime rates than incarceration rates.
- cromulent 16y ago
  The chance of being eaten by a crocodile in Australia is about 1 in 20m in any given year (a lot less if you stay in the lower 2/3s of the country, essentially zero for > 95% of the population). The article above indicates that many innocent people in the US are encouraged to plead guilty. I'm inclined to believe the opposite.
  - rsheridan6 16y ago
    That was one of the 99.9% of statistics that were made up on the spot. The point is that being incarcerated for no reason is way down on the list of worries for Americans who aren't criminals - far below random encounters with criminals who haven't been incarcerated, for example. And where does the article does not indicate that many innocent people in the US are encouraged to plead guilty?
    - cromulent 16y ago
      "Innocent defendants may plead guilty in return for a shorter sentence to avoid the risk of a much longer one. A prosecutor can credibly threaten a middle-aged man that he will die in a cell unless he gives evidence against his boss. This is unfair, complains Harvey Silverglate, the author of “Three Felonies a Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent”. If a defence lawyer offers a witness money to testify that his client is innocent, that is bribery. But a prosecutor can legally offer something of far greater value—his freedom—to a witness who says the opposite. The potential for wrongful convictions is obvious."

todayiamme 16y ago

India is far worse. Down here if you're rich enough then the law is your private servant. However, if you're poor then you might just end up serving more than 7 years as an under trial before your court day. It doesn't matter if you're innocent or guilty if you're poor. If you're arrested you have to serve time as an under trial due to the byzantine system. I wish there were some accurate up to date statistics I could link to, but the inaccurate ones themselves are quite telling (http://ncrb.nic.in/PSI2007/prison2007.htm http://ncrb.nic.in/PSI2007/prison2007.htm). More than 54245 people were imprisoned for being under trial in 2007. The irony is that if you're well-connected then you don't even need to spend your time in jail if convicted. The press has a ball with such cases and they are decreasing, but they still exist. On the other hand, I think that a country's justice system is a mirror of the society in which it operates. My real father was a lawyer in Germany and he once explained to me just how different the legal systems of different nations are and just how intertwined they are with the political climate of a country (he's currently doing his PhD on immigration and its socio-economic side-effects which include crime, education etc). Perhaps, the rise of convictions in the US is a result of a society that wants results fast.Without doubt those tax dollars would reap higher returns if they are wisely invested in programs that benefit those in poverty. The ghettos are the root of a lot of crime, and if their conditions are improved and they're given a lifeline then slowly over time things will change. The problem is that just like in India it is far more impressive to be "tough on crime", than to work at a solution that will take longer than your term in office to give returns. The same would apply to a lot of other debates. It is so easy to apply a quick-fix, but so difficult to improve something with decades of hard-work. An interesting question is that if there are any countries at all whose culture promotes such things? P.S. - This paragraph just broke my heart; >>>But in prison she found she was pregnant. After going through labour shackled to a hospital bed, she was allowed only 48 hours to bond with her newborn son. She was released in March, found a job in a shop, and is hoping that her son will get used to having her around.<<< I really don't understand how people can treat other human beings like this?

known 16y ago

Too many laws, too much corruption.

b-man 16y ago

If anyone is interested in digging further in the subject, I highly recommend this documentary[1]. [1] War on Drugs (The Prison Industrial Complex) -- http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=864268000924014458&q=prison+industrial&total=149&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0# http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=864268000924014458&#...

lakeeffect 16y ago

The privatization of prisons is a huge problem whether people want to face it or not. Its a serious problem when people can make profits from having people put in their prisons. The only motivation is to increase profits by having a high utilization of the prisons, by increasing frequency and length of prison terms.

zeynel1 16y ago

but why do you look at this as a united states issue - this a --human-- rights issue - when an unhuman living organism -the government- takes away the freedom of -human- individual this proves once again that human individual lives in a human plantation -the flag-states who owns all the rights to human individual- and human individual is the -slave- of that unhuman organism called the flag-state - the fact that you have not been incarcerated by the flag-state who owns all your rights - does not mean that your freedom has not been violated - this is really a fundamental problem that humans do not yet realize --because-- the unhuman organism successfully keeps humanity -divided- and humans do not yet realize that unhuman organisms are -living- organisms without body -or- bodiless humans - until humans recognized the fact that there were -invisible- organisms called viruses - they could not fight viruses - now it is time to recognize that there are -invisible- living organisms that are -bigger- than humans the unhuman organism has no right over human body - let the government -catch- the criminal who offended a human body - and then deliver him to the family who was offended - deliver the offender to the -human- relatives - if the criminal goes to jail - he spends his time in the gym - he watches tv - he is fed - he doesnt have to work - he is with people like himself - he is actually --happy-- in prison - prison is --not-- a deterrent - catch the killer and hand him to the -mother- http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/06/01/2010-06-01_mother_of_yu_yao_chinese_immigrant_killed_in_pipe_attack_charges_accused_killer_.html http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/06/01/2010-06-... the mother will not let the killer spend time in the gym or watch tv or feed him - she will ---torture--- him until he begs her to -kill- him but she will not kill him as long as she lives - and this is what he deserves - this is what i call a deterrent - this is what i call justice - if you killed someones daughter you dont want to be handed to the mother - this is justice