7 ms·

Joining Google to better explain search

102 points by adamcarson 9y ago

shostack 9y ago
Enjoyed your previous published columns Danny, congrats! Any chance you can push back on the recent change to how maximum daily budgets are handled that Matt Southern wrote about a couple days ago? Kind of ridiculous and experienced paid search managers are outraged at what appears to be yet another attempt to snatch control over accounts from managers. https://www.searchenginejournal.com/google-doubles-adwords-budgets-advertisers-unhappy/217577/ https://www.searchenginejournal.com/google-doubles-adwords-b...
olivermarks 9y ago
..Wondering about the ethics of Sullivan being at Google while still associated with SEO best practice entity searchengineland...http://searchengineland.com/about http://searchengineland.com/about
- jklinger410 9y ago
  Google has been working closely with all of their favorite SEO blogs. They often work with them to mold the narrative around algo updates and best practices.
- sullivandanny 9y ago
  I actually stepped down as being an advisor. They just haven't updated that part of the page. In my post, I address this. Bottom line: I don't plan to treat the company any differently.
  - olivermarks 9y ago
    Fair enough - thanks for all the hard work on searchengineland, great site!
sova 9y ago
Please be a proponent for veracity metrics on news stories and "viral articles" ... it's about time we as users get to see the measure of reliability and trustworthiness of search results. Cheers, may your new role bring you great happiness, and may the quality of our lives increase positively as a result.
- sullivandanny 9y ago
  This types of concerns are very much part of the remit.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Please be a proponent for veracity metrics on news stories and "viral articles" ... it's about time we as users get to see the measure of reliability and trustworthiness of search results. Google does lots of things I like, but I see close to zero evidence that they have developed the competency to act as an arbiter on any of veracity, reliability, or trustworthiness of news articles (or even less-timely information on the web.) Relevance and my likelihood to be interested, yes. But those other things...no. And that's even aside from the question of whether Google using its dominant search position to inject editorial commentary on search results is a good thing or, in the long term, a bigger threat than the one it would be addressing.
  - MBCook 9y ago
    I agree. But given the position they hold I think they need to develop this skill. It’s very clear that ‘throw an algorithm up without thinking of abuse/negative consequences and fix it later’ works terribly.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      I'd rather Google provide a framework to integrate third-party ratings; we don't need a monopoly arbiter of online truth that's also a monopoly search provider.
  - amoorthy 9y ago
mtgx 9y ago
> The goal is to increase the connection between those at Google who work hard on search each day and the public that depends on Google for answers. I’ll be educating the public about how search works. I’ll be exploring and explaining issues that may arise. So this is a PR position? I don't care much about that part... > I’ll be looking at ways to take in feedback and work for solutions to improve search going forward. That would be interesting if anything real comes out of it, but I fear it's the first thing he'll be spending most of his time on.
- sullivandanny 9y ago
  It's not a PR position. I don't work for corporate communications. I work for the search team. I'll be sharing more about the role after I have more time at Google and shape it more. But it's definitely not PR.
  - puzzle 9y ago
    It sounds more like Matt Cutt's external role. If I were still at Google, I'd send you a welcome email and point you to the few things that I thought you got wrong in the past (mainly due to lacking the same context as those on the inside... now you can be the one biting your tongue). Quite a few of us paid attention to your writings. They were always among the most insightful, comprehensive and accurate, even when negative. In some way, your hire might be a bit of a net loss, because now that you're on the inside, you're no longer going to be considered a neutral third party and I'm not sure that anyone out there writes as well as you did until June.
    - sullivandanny 9y ago
      Thank you. On the loss part, I'd left journalism. So Google's not causing it -- I just really needed a change after 21 years of doing it. I appreciate your kind words about it. I'm also absolutely fascinated by understanding from the inside. That was always the hardest part. If you can't see fully, it's hard to explain things -- things that some times help people know if there's actually a reasonable or good explanation. I'm hoping that being on the inside, I'm going to be able to perhaps help Google share more than it has in the past.
noncoml 9y ago
Relevant to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15301014 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15301014 , which had its title changed. I don't think that anybody deciding to work for Google, FB, Amazon from this point on can use any excuse to disassociate themselves from the actions of their company.
mikkelewis 9y ago
Fair to say that it'll be similar to what the public was used to with Matt Cutts? imo his departure left a hole between Google Search <-> public.
- sullivandanny 9y ago
  Yes and no. Matt oversaw search spam efforts and was an engineer. I won't be doing that. And I'm definitely not an engineer. Matt was also a lead on webmaster relation issues. That's not going to be my focus. There are good people who have already been doing that. Matt did often address broader search issues, and the role will encompass that. It also will be taking in feedback from the public and sources and seeing what can be done to promote change. I'll have more to share after I get through a few weeks of settling in.
  - WalterGR 9y ago
    Matt was also a lead on webmaster relation issues. ... There are good people who have already been doing that. Can you suggest some? I'm still trying to resolve a years-old issue that Matt Cutts gave me incorrect information about. You can read our back-and-forth (before he stops responding) here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5418864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5418864
pasbesoin 9y ago
Ok, then. Here's what I want: = Give me my + operator back. = Don't "guess" at additional matches not specified in my search terms (beyond stemming). Or let me trivial, simply, and immediately specify such handling. = Tell me the collection / last updated time of results returned, and let me actually, effectively filter based on these. These alone should help me start to evade the massive pollution of search results that have me cringing a bit internally these days, in anticipation, every time I'm about to search for something that isn't a trivial response/result. Thanks
- sullivandanny 9y ago
  I'd love to see + do what + was supposed to do and not do the guessing. Has been frustrating to me, too -- though I suspect (this is part of what I'll be learning) that for the vast majority of people, it might help. In the meantime, when you search, after doing a search, look for Tools under the search box then select "Verbatim" which is supposed to do exactly what you ask.
  - nathancahill 9y ago
    Huh, TIL about Verbatim. Wish there was a setting to make it the default, like you can set SafeSearch.
  - pasbesoin 9y ago
    Thank you. That has been mentioned, previously, and I believe there is also a corresponding query string value that can be appended to a search URL to enable it. At least that would amend itself to e.g. being incorporated into a bookmarklet for one-click access.
    - pasbesoin 9y ago
      javascript:void((function(){var%20loc%20=%20location.href;%20loc.indexOf("?")%20==%20-1%20?%20(location.href%20=%20loc+"?li=1")%20:%20(location.href%20=%20loc+"&li=1");})()); or, taking a bit more care: javascript:void((function(){var%20loc%20=%20location.href;%20if%20(loc.indexOf('li=1')%20>=%200)%20return;%20loc.indexOf("?")%20<%200%20?%20(location.href%20=%20loc+"?li=1")%20:%20(location.href%20=%20loc+"&li=1");})()); or I guess it could be modified further to change the parm if it's already present with a different value. Modified from (because I'm lazy): https://stackoverflow.com/questions/20677974/bookmarklet-to-add-a-parameter-at-end-of-each-url#answer-20678352 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/20677974/bookmarklet-to-...
xpose2000 9y ago
I echo the idea that he will try to fill the Matt Cutts role that mikkelewis mentioned in the comments. SEOs always knew to turn to Cutts when they had a question and it hasn't been properly filled since he left. I have a feeling we will be hearing from Mr. Sullivan quite a bit in the coming months. It has to be super exciting going from being an outsider (although well known and connected) to a Google insider. I wonder how others in the SEO community feel about it?
thunder-ltu 9y ago
Fuck Google
damon_c 9y ago
I would think that after following Google's search endeavors so closely for so long, being invited to join Google and see it from the inside must be incredibly exciting. If it is, congratulations! Have fun!
tryingagainbro 9y ago
That something different has arrived: I’m joining Google as of Monday You get a paycheck from Google, which is at least honest and upfront. Danny Sullivan has been shilling for Google for over a decade, always taking their side.

102 points by adamcarson 9y ago

Enjoyed your previous published columns Danny, congrats! Any chance you can push back on the recent change to how maximum daily budgets are handled that Matt Southern wrote about a couple days ago? Kind of ridiculous and experienced paid search managers are outraged at what appears to be yet another attempt to snatch control over accounts from managers. https://www.searchenginejournal.com/google-doubles-adwords-budgets-advertisers-unhappy/217577/ https://www.searchenginejournal.com/google-doubles-adwords-b...

olivermarks 9y ago

..Wondering about the ethics of Sullivan being at Google while still associated with SEO best practice entity searchengineland...http://searchengineland.com/about http://searchengineland.com/about

jklinger410 9y ago
Google has been working closely with all of their favorite SEO blogs. They often work with them to mold the narrative around algo updates and best practices.
sullivandanny 9y ago
I actually stepped down as being an advisor. They just haven't updated that part of the page. In my post, I address this. Bottom line: I don't plan to treat the company any differently.
- olivermarks 9y ago
  Fair enough - thanks for all the hard work on searchengineland, great site!

sova 9y ago

Please be a proponent for veracity metrics on news stories and "viral articles" ... it's about time we as users get to see the measure of reliability and trustworthiness of search results. Cheers, may your new role bring you great happiness, and may the quality of our lives increase positively as a result.

sullivandanny 9y ago
This types of concerns are very much part of the remit.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> Please be a proponent for veracity metrics on news stories and "viral articles" ... it's about time we as users get to see the measure of reliability and trustworthiness of search results. Google does lots of things I like, but I see close to zero evidence that they have developed the competency to act as an arbiter on any of veracity, reliability, or trustworthiness of news articles (or even less-timely information on the web.) Relevance and my likelihood to be interested, yes. But those other things...no. And that's even aside from the question of whether Google using its dominant search position to inject editorial commentary on search results is a good thing or, in the long term, a bigger threat than the one it would be addressing.
- MBCook 9y ago
  I agree. But given the position they hold I think they need to develop this skill. It’s very clear that ‘throw an algorithm up without thinking of abuse/negative consequences and fix it later’ works terribly.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    I'd rather Google provide a framework to integrate third-party ratings; we don't need a monopoly arbiter of online truth that's also a monopoly search provider.
- amoorthy 9y ago

mtgx 9y ago

> The goal is to increase the connection between those at Google who work hard on search each day and the public that depends on Google for answers. I’ll be educating the public about how search works. I’ll be exploring and explaining issues that may arise. So this is a PR position? I don't care much about that part... > I’ll be looking at ways to take in feedback and work for solutions to improve search going forward. That would be interesting if anything real comes out of it, but I fear it's the first thing he'll be spending most of his time on.

sullivandanny 9y ago
It's not a PR position. I don't work for corporate communications. I work for the search team. I'll be sharing more about the role after I have more time at Google and shape it more. But it's definitely not PR.
- puzzle 9y ago
  It sounds more like Matt Cutt's external role. If I were still at Google, I'd send you a welcome email and point you to the few things that I thought you got wrong in the past (mainly due to lacking the same context as those on the inside... now you can be the one biting your tongue). Quite a few of us paid attention to your writings. They were always among the most insightful, comprehensive and accurate, even when negative. In some way, your hire might be a bit of a net loss, because now that you're on the inside, you're no longer going to be considered a neutral third party and I'm not sure that anyone out there writes as well as you did until June.
  - sullivandanny 9y ago
    Thank you. On the loss part, I'd left journalism. So Google's not causing it -- I just really needed a change after 21 years of doing it. I appreciate your kind words about it. I'm also absolutely fascinated by understanding from the inside. That was always the hardest part. If you can't see fully, it's hard to explain things -- things that some times help people know if there's actually a reasonable or good explanation. I'm hoping that being on the inside, I'm going to be able to perhaps help Google share more than it has in the past.

noncoml 9y ago

Relevant to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15301014 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15301014 , which had its title changed. I don't think that anybody deciding to work for Google, FB, Amazon from this point on can use any excuse to disassociate themselves from the actions of their company.

mikkelewis 9y ago

Fair to say that it'll be similar to what the public was used to with Matt Cutts? imo his departure left a hole between Google Search <-> public.

sullivandanny 9y ago
Yes and no. Matt oversaw search spam efforts and was an engineer. I won't be doing that. And I'm definitely not an engineer. Matt was also a lead on webmaster relation issues. That's not going to be my focus. There are good people who have already been doing that. Matt did often address broader search issues, and the role will encompass that. It also will be taking in feedback from the public and sources and seeing what can be done to promote change. I'll have more to share after I get through a few weeks of settling in.
- WalterGR 9y ago
  Matt was also a lead on webmaster relation issues. ... There are good people who have already been doing that. Can you suggest some? I'm still trying to resolve a years-old issue that Matt Cutts gave me incorrect information about. You can read our back-and-forth (before he stops responding) here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5418864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5418864

pasbesoin 9y ago

Ok, then. Here's what I want: = Give me my + operator back. = Don't "guess" at additional matches not specified in my search terms (beyond stemming). Or let me trivial, simply, and immediately specify such handling. = Tell me the collection / last updated time of results returned, and let me actually, effectively filter based on these. These alone should help me start to evade the massive pollution of search results that have me cringing a bit internally these days, in anticipation, every time I'm about to search for something that isn't a trivial response/result. Thanks

sullivandanny 9y ago
I'd love to see + do what + was supposed to do and not do the guessing. Has been frustrating to me, too -- though I suspect (this is part of what I'll be learning) that for the vast majority of people, it might help. In the meantime, when you search, after doing a search, look for Tools under the search box then select "Verbatim" which is supposed to do exactly what you ask.
- nathancahill 9y ago
  Huh, TIL about Verbatim. Wish there was a setting to make it the default, like you can set SafeSearch.
- pasbesoin 9y ago
  Thank you. That has been mentioned, previously, and I believe there is also a corresponding query string value that can be appended to a search URL to enable it. At least that would amend itself to e.g. being incorporated into a bookmarklet for one-click access.
  - pasbesoin 9y ago
    javascript:void((function(){var%20loc%20=%20location.href;%20loc.indexOf("?")%20==%20-1%20?%20(location.href%20=%20loc+"?li=1")%20:%20(location.href%20=%20loc+"&li=1");})()); or, taking a bit more care: javascript:void((function(){var%20loc%20=%20location.href;%20if%20(loc.indexOf('li=1')%20>=%200)%20return;%20loc.indexOf("?")%20<%200%20?%20(location.href%20=%20loc+"?li=1")%20:%20(location.href%20=%20loc+"&li=1");})()); or I guess it could be modified further to change the parm if it's already present with a different value. Modified from (because I'm lazy): https://stackoverflow.com/questions/20677974/bookmarklet-to-add-a-parameter-at-end-of-each-url#answer-20678352 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/20677974/bookmarklet-to-...

xpose2000 9y ago

I echo the idea that he will try to fill the Matt Cutts role that mikkelewis mentioned in the comments. SEOs always knew to turn to Cutts when they had a question and it hasn't been properly filled since he left. I have a feeling we will be hearing from Mr. Sullivan quite a bit in the coming months. It has to be super exciting going from being an outsider (although well known and connected) to a Google insider. I wonder how others in the SEO community feel about it?

thunder-ltu 9y ago

Fuck Google

damon_c 9y ago

I would think that after following Google's search endeavors so closely for so long, being invited to join Google and see it from the inside must be incredibly exciting. If it is, congratulations! Have fun!

tryingagainbro 9y ago

That something different has arrived: I’m joining Google as of Monday You get a paycheck from Google, which is at least honest and upfront. Danny Sullivan has been shilling for Google for over a decade, always taking their side.