10 ms·

I remember getting my house's cable modem slashdotted in 2001 when i launched a community site (half-empty.org) I built -- what a wild ride that was. (If you ar

by gfodor 9y ago

I remember getting my house's cable modem slashdotted in 2001 when i launched a community site (half-empty.org) I built -- what a wild ride that was. (If you are reading, thanks to Tim Wilde and the rest of the DynDNS crew for all the memories helping me, a young kid, get that site into an actual DC :)) I remember always rolling my eyes at the Linux and Free Software crowd on /. and the anti-Microsoft zeitgeist that you could find at the top of pretty much any thread, even if it was about something completely unrelated. At the the height of it these people were painted as communists by Microsoft (and if they had any real visibility in the media, I'd imagine they'd have gotten the same treatment.) But here I am today sitting at my desk at Mozilla committed to working only on open source software for the rest of my career and never writing another line of proprietary code, after having seen enough good and pure-intentioned closed source projects morph and turn bad after the pointy haired bosses, the "visionaries", and the investor class got enough control over them. I guess those days have always been in the back of my mind. It took a lot of life lessons to really understand how important the things the /. community was always debating back then around software licenses, privacy, and IP really were. Images of "billg" as the borg were fun, but behind those gags were serious conversations that ended up shaping our world, and ensuring to one degree or another there would always be a hedge against corporate control of software. In today's world of mass surveillance, corporate consolidation of internet infrastructure, and the call for censorship of speech on the web, a community like /. is sorely needed. Here we are on the modern day equivalent, a site owned and operated by a startup incubator. It's fortunate that a community like this exists at all in some form, but how truly times have changed.

Nition 9y ago
> The anti-Microsoft zeitgeist that you could find at the top of pretty much any thread, even if it was about something completely unrelated. Just a side comment, I feel like Hacker News is going this way with Facebook a little. Posts that tangentially mention Facebook, there's usually a high-rated comment about how Facebook is evil and since the user left Facebook their life has improved. Those "I don't even own a TV"-like posts are a bit grating as the top comment on every thread, but hey maybe like you say, it's really pushing towards a better future in the end.
- bdamm 9y ago
  Not owning a TV is pushing my kid to watch a lot of YouTube. I'm seriously considering buying a TV, after living for 30 years without one, just so that I can have a quality entertainment feed that doesn't bend to the new media's idea of what my kid should watch, because what that ends up being is endless advertisements ("open this egg! What's inside? A Ken doll!! Wow!!") and videos of pandas killing each other with chainsaws, then reaching into the body cavity to find their surprise egg. What a world.
  - jerf 9y ago
    Depending on the age of your kids, I suggest total YouTube curation. I've only got up to a nine-year-old but I'm thinking it's going to have to go up to at least 13 or 14 before I can have a serious discussion about just what is out there and how people are trying to manipulate them. Five years ago that would have been more to avoid them from stumbling across the various types of adult content that for various reasons I would have preferred them not to view, and perhaps the HN zeitgeist would have called me a puritan (although I'm not just thinking sex and violence here, but also things like conspiracy theories and politics they are currently incapable of processing and other things [1]). Now, unfortunately, it's more about avoiding the brain hackers that you describe that know how to hack their brains into getting low-level addicted to that sort of garbage, and now perhaps the HN zeitgeist will be less offended at my policy that a poor defenseless six-year-old or nine-year-old in my case can't be expected to defend themselves against this level of sophistication. (Because however stupid those videos may strike you as an adult, they are sophisticated, in their own way. The "cartoons that were just toy commercials" of my youth were nothing compared to what modern kids are being targeted by.) The good news is that we're actually finding some channels where we have some common ground. For instance, they're really digging Homestar Runner now, and I've got some others that I can pick and choose from that we all like. I increasingly pity the "digital natives" that didn't get to ease themselves into this world like I did. I'm not saying they're hopelessly lost; today's article about kids rebelling against social media is heartening. I'm just saying, I had a much easier on-ramp than they did. My first few years worth of youthful indiscretions are now utterly obliterated, because the dial-in BBS they were on is now long gone. I wasn't fucking up on Facebook or where the Internet Archive could find me. By the time I got on to the real internet, oh, I'm sure I could find things that would make me cringe now, but I'm pretty confident I wasn't blowing my foot off anymore. [1]: Oh, and I'm pleased to say that they both seem to be on track to be voracious book readers, which I think is the strongest Step One to being able to deal with the onslaught they will eventually face. My strategy here is not just mere "denial of access", as I am well aware that doesn't work into their adulthood, and my goal is to raise good adults, not good children. I'm still feeling through what my strategy is, on what is shifting sand anyhow, but there's more to it than just "shield them forever."
samstave 9y ago
>>In today's world of mass surveillance, corporate consolidation of internet infrastructure, and the call for censorship of speech on the web I am going to have to call you out. I had a low-digit ID on /. We (people like me) have been calling this out for FUCKING DECADES. I feel that we can talk about generational millenials etc.. but we can also call out DIGITAL millenials; those who thing they know what the fuck is up just because they "work at facebook" I have been a whistle against NSA router backdoors since 1997... So nobody wanted to hear it then - and the giants have surpassed me - and I concede... but to think that this is some freaking revelation is bullshit. We have been talking about it for literally decades. FFS FB threatened to sue me for that which I revealed even here on HN. Today's "world" has been here since the 70s.
- sizzle 9y ago
  Thank you for sticking up for what's right.
- donavanm 9y ago
  Indeed. I remember the evolution of ECHELON in the 90s having the same impact in some circles. And then Carnivore coming out a decade later. If someone doesnt (at least) know of SHAMROCK and MINARET they really have no context.
  - ethbro 9y ago
    Also Clipper/Skipjack https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip
    - hinkley 9y ago
      Unfortunately, people had already forgotten about the Clipper Chip when Al Gore got the nomination the first time.
      - ethbro 9y ago
        I believe we'd still have better outcomes from a candidate who was trained in the sciences than an alternative completely ignorant about technology. I make mistakes when I'm writing code all the time. But as a science professional, I test my code against an objective reality, characterize my bugs, then change my approach. Politics could use a lot more of that. And I'd also offer that in the mid-90s key escrow wasn't as bizarre an idea. We were just starting to grapple with mass physical communication transitioning to digital. And while I hate the dragnet currently used, targeted, court-approved interception of communication content is a good to society (via an effective law enforcement branch, hence an effective court system, hence rule of law).
gcb0 9y ago
context is everything. you were lucky to be doing an online gig. the rest of /. audience was probably in desktop software. most of the people there were ruthlessly crushed by Microsoft business tactics. they mostly had a very good reason to attack Microsoft.
- MartinCron 9y ago
  most of the people there were ruthlessly crushed by Microsoft business tactics That has to be hyperbole. Even at the height of Microsoft's aggression, there were many professional software devs left uncrushed.
  - gfodor 9y ago
    I feel like avoiding the steamroller of "embrace and extend" that was MS at the time was highly dependent upon luck.
    - flukus 9y ago
      The steam roller is still there from quite a few companies, make something popular and Google, MS, Facebook will clone it and force it on people. No luck about it though, these companies are only interested in mass market stuff, the long tail has only gotten longer.
      - godzillabrennus 9y ago
        First they offer to buy it. If you aren’t insane you sell it. If you think you can beat the big three you probably deserve to be crushed.
        intended 9y ago
        >If you think you can beat the big three you probably deserve to be crushed. vs > If you think you can beat the big three I cheer you on. Its funny, that on HN of all places, your statement is not challenged. The major point of HN over /. was the startup/incubatorish habits of Ycombinator.
cisanti 9y ago
In today's world we need to call out people who do the job for these spy machines. Developers working for Google & Facebook should be ashamed of themselves. Money talks, I guess.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  I don't have the vitriol towards the devs you do, but I will admit it's a bit disheartening that some of the greatest minds of our time are figuring out ways to trick your brain into clicking advertisements.
  - utefan001 9y ago
    Somewhat relevant to my comment on another thread. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15413217 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15413217 "...education sites are competing with very powerful algorithms that are designed to keep users watching video after video. If youtube starts encouraging users to do a few Khan Academy problems before watching the next video, I will consider our project, DnsLearning.org, a total success"
- titzer 9y ago
  I work for Google. I am not going to be "ashamed of myself," but I am also not into drinking the Koolaid. It's an oversimplification to demonize groups in this way. What is more troubling is the (non)reaction of society to the vast encroachment on privacy and rights from all sides, not the least of which are governments, telecommunication companies, and advertisers.
  - cisanti 9y ago
    But you should. It's obvious you're privileged enough to change jobs once you have worked for them but you won't, because you don't want to take responsibility of knowingly playing part of the evils and histories biggest and most dangerous spying system.
    - titzer 9y ago
Iv 9y ago
Open source is the main thing that prevented cyberpunk dystopias that many authors imagined. This community deserves some love.
- astrodust 9y ago
  Let's be honest: It prevented some and created others. We got a wealth of free tools that allowed us to create things like Slashdot without crippling license fees and we got a wealth of cheap IoT and poorly programmed devices that can DDOS and bring down GitHub. In the 1990s the fear was that Microsoft would take over everything. Now the concern is that Linux will show up in places it has no business being, collecting data it doesn't need, and connecting to services that aren't necessary, all in what should be simple, dumb appliances like your refrigerator or washing machine. The kinds of hacks that were absolutely, hilariously laughable in movies like Virus are now quite plausible. Blender went berserk and set the kitchen on fire? Who would've guessed that's actually practical now, given a sufficiently Internet of Thingsy appliance.
  - nvarsj 9y ago
    It's a bit of a stretch to attribute opensource with the rise of IoT. Those devices have plenty of proprietary software as well.
    - astrodust 9y ago
      Since the licensing costs are often zero it's made products possible that were previously impossible if they needed to license QNX, Windows CE or something proprietary. Open-source reduces friction. This is good in some areas and bad in others.
  - c3833174 9y ago
    >Now the concern is that Linux will show up in places it has no business being, collecting data it doesn't need, and connecting to services that aren't necessary But linux is just a kernel and devices based on it are usually easier to reverse engineer. > simple, dumb appliances like your refrigerator or washing machine. Dumb appliances are not going away, you just probably spend too much time on websites that overhype ioT garbage.
throw2016 9y ago
HN is like the california gold rush. Nobody is going to stop to think of ethical concerns and if forced to will make the appropriate posturing noises but the focus is completely different. The irony is inspite of all the posturing about freedom and liberty seen at places like Slashdot its software folks who are currently neck deep in building surveillance infrastructure and selling out the world, of course qualified with suitable hand waving and apologism. For the same commentators to reflect in a different context you need a more laid back venue like Slashdot. The problem with sites like Slashdot is to retain authenticity they cannot be profit driven. But there appears to be little room for that kind of thinking in the software ecosystem currently.

by gfodor 9y ago

Nition 9y ago

> The anti-Microsoft zeitgeist that you could find at the top of pretty much any thread, even if it was about something completely unrelated. Just a side comment, I feel like Hacker News is going this way with Facebook a little. Posts that tangentially mention Facebook, there's usually a high-rated comment about how Facebook is evil and since the user left Facebook their life has improved. Those "I don't even own a TV"-like posts are a bit grating as the top comment on every thread, but hey maybe like you say, it's really pushing towards a better future in the end.

bdamm 9y ago
Not owning a TV is pushing my kid to watch a lot of YouTube. I'm seriously considering buying a TV, after living for 30 years without one, just so that I can have a quality entertainment feed that doesn't bend to the new media's idea of what my kid should watch, because what that ends up being is endless advertisements ("open this egg! What's inside? A Ken doll!! Wow!!") and videos of pandas killing each other with chainsaws, then reaching into the body cavity to find their surprise egg. What a world.
- jerf 9y ago
  Depending on the age of your kids, I suggest total YouTube curation. I've only got up to a nine-year-old but I'm thinking it's going to have to go up to at least 13 or 14 before I can have a serious discussion about just what is out there and how people are trying to manipulate them. Five years ago that would have been more to avoid them from stumbling across the various types of adult content that for various reasons I would have preferred them not to view, and perhaps the HN zeitgeist would have called me a puritan (although I'm not just thinking sex and violence here, but also things like conspiracy theories and politics they are currently incapable of processing and other things [1]). Now, unfortunately, it's more about avoiding the brain hackers that you describe that know how to hack their brains into getting low-level addicted to that sort of garbage, and now perhaps the HN zeitgeist will be less offended at my policy that a poor defenseless six-year-old or nine-year-old in my case can't be expected to defend themselves against this level of sophistication. (Because however stupid those videos may strike you as an adult, they are sophisticated, in their own way. The "cartoons that were just toy commercials" of my youth were nothing compared to what modern kids are being targeted by.) The good news is that we're actually finding some channels where we have some common ground. For instance, they're really digging Homestar Runner now, and I've got some others that I can pick and choose from that we all like. I increasingly pity the "digital natives" that didn't get to ease themselves into this world like I did. I'm not saying they're hopelessly lost; today's article about kids rebelling against social media is heartening. I'm just saying, I had a much easier on-ramp than they did. My first few years worth of youthful indiscretions are now utterly obliterated, because the dial-in BBS they were on is now long gone. I wasn't fucking up on Facebook or where the Internet Archive could find me. By the time I got on to the real internet, oh, I'm sure I could find things that would make me cringe now, but I'm pretty confident I wasn't blowing my foot off anymore. [1]: Oh, and I'm pleased to say that they both seem to be on track to be voracious book readers, which I think is the strongest Step One to being able to deal with the onslaught they will eventually face. My strategy here is not just mere "denial of access", as I am well aware that doesn't work into their adulthood, and my goal is to raise good adults, not good children. I'm still feeling through what my strategy is, on what is shifting sand anyhow, but there's more to it than just "shield them forever."

samstave 9y ago

>>In today's world of mass surveillance, corporate consolidation of internet infrastructure, and the call for censorship of speech on the web I am going to have to call you out. I had a low-digit ID on /. We (people like me) have been calling this out for FUCKING DECADES. I feel that we can talk about generational millenials etc.. but we can also call out DIGITAL millenials; those who thing they know what the fuck is up just because they "work at facebook" I have been a whistle against NSA router backdoors since 1997... So nobody wanted to hear it then - and the giants have surpassed me - and I concede... but to think that this is some freaking revelation is bullshit. We have been talking about it for literally decades. FFS FB threatened to sue me for that which I revealed even here on HN. Today's "world" has been here since the 70s.

sizzle 9y ago
Thank you for sticking up for what's right.
donavanm 9y ago
Indeed. I remember the evolution of ECHELON in the 90s having the same impact in some circles. And then Carnivore coming out a decade later. If someone doesnt (at least) know of SHAMROCK and MINARET they really have no context.
- ethbro 9y ago
  Also Clipper/Skipjack https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip
  - hinkley 9y ago
    Unfortunately, people had already forgotten about the Clipper Chip when Al Gore got the nomination the first time.
    - ethbro 9y ago
      I believe we'd still have better outcomes from a candidate who was trained in the sciences than an alternative completely ignorant about technology. I make mistakes when I'm writing code all the time. But as a science professional, I test my code against an objective reality, characterize my bugs, then change my approach. Politics could use a lot more of that. And I'd also offer that in the mid-90s key escrow wasn't as bizarre an idea. We were just starting to grapple with mass physical communication transitioning to digital. And while I hate the dragnet currently used, targeted, court-approved interception of communication content is a good to society (via an effective law enforcement branch, hence an effective court system, hence rule of law).

gcb0 9y ago

context is everything. you were lucky to be doing an online gig. the rest of /. audience was probably in desktop software. most of the people there were ruthlessly crushed by Microsoft business tactics. they mostly had a very good reason to attack Microsoft.

MartinCron 9y ago
most of the people there were ruthlessly crushed by Microsoft business tactics That has to be hyperbole. Even at the height of Microsoft's aggression, there were many professional software devs left uncrushed.
- gfodor 9y ago
  I feel like avoiding the steamroller of "embrace and extend" that was MS at the time was highly dependent upon luck.
  - flukus 9y ago
    The steam roller is still there from quite a few companies, make something popular and Google, MS, Facebook will clone it and force it on people. No luck about it though, these companies are only interested in mass market stuff, the long tail has only gotten longer.
    - godzillabrennus 9y ago
      First they offer to buy it. If you aren’t insane you sell it. If you think you can beat the big three you probably deserve to be crushed.
      - intended 9y ago
        >If you think you can beat the big three you probably deserve to be crushed. vs > If you think you can beat the big three I cheer you on. Its funny, that on HN of all places, your statement is not challenged. The major point of HN over /. was the startup/incubatorish habits of Ycombinator.

cisanti 9y ago

In today's world we need to call out people who do the job for these spy machines. Developers working for Google & Facebook should be ashamed of themselves. Money talks, I guess.

Consultant32452 9y ago
I don't have the vitriol towards the devs you do, but I will admit it's a bit disheartening that some of the greatest minds of our time are figuring out ways to trick your brain into clicking advertisements.
- utefan001 9y ago
  Somewhat relevant to my comment on another thread. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15413217 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15413217 "...education sites are competing with very powerful algorithms that are designed to keep users watching video after video. If youtube starts encouraging users to do a few Khan Academy problems before watching the next video, I will consider our project, DnsLearning.org, a total success"
titzer 9y ago
I work for Google. I am not going to be "ashamed of myself," but I am also not into drinking the Koolaid. It's an oversimplification to demonize groups in this way. What is more troubling is the (non)reaction of society to the vast encroachment on privacy and rights from all sides, not the least of which are governments, telecommunication companies, and advertisers.
- cisanti 9y ago
  But you should. It's obvious you're privileged enough to change jobs once you have worked for them but you won't, because you don't want to take responsibility of knowingly playing part of the evils and histories biggest and most dangerous spying system.
  - titzer 9y ago

Iv 9y ago

Open source is the main thing that prevented cyberpunk dystopias that many authors imagined. This community deserves some love.

astrodust 9y ago
Let's be honest: It prevented some and created others. We got a wealth of free tools that allowed us to create things like Slashdot without crippling license fees and we got a wealth of cheap IoT and poorly programmed devices that can DDOS and bring down GitHub. In the 1990s the fear was that Microsoft would take over everything. Now the concern is that Linux will show up in places it has no business being, collecting data it doesn't need, and connecting to services that aren't necessary, all in what should be simple, dumb appliances like your refrigerator or washing machine. The kinds of hacks that were absolutely, hilariously laughable in movies like Virus are now quite plausible. Blender went berserk and set the kitchen on fire? Who would've guessed that's actually practical now, given a sufficiently Internet of Thingsy appliance.
- nvarsj 9y ago
  It's a bit of a stretch to attribute opensource with the rise of IoT. Those devices have plenty of proprietary software as well.
  - astrodust 9y ago
    Since the licensing costs are often zero it's made products possible that were previously impossible if they needed to license QNX, Windows CE or something proprietary. Open-source reduces friction. This is good in some areas and bad in others.
- c3833174 9y ago
  >Now the concern is that Linux will show up in places it has no business being, collecting data it doesn't need, and connecting to services that aren't necessary But linux is just a kernel and devices based on it are usually easier to reverse engineer. > simple, dumb appliances like your refrigerator or washing machine. Dumb appliances are not going away, you just probably spend too much time on websites that overhype ioT garbage.

throw2016 9y ago

HN is like the california gold rush. Nobody is going to stop to think of ethical concerns and if forced to will make the appropriate posturing noises but the focus is completely different. The irony is inspite of all the posturing about freedom and liberty seen at places like Slashdot its software folks who are currently neck deep in building surveillance infrastructure and selling out the world, of course qualified with suitable hand waving and apologism. For the same commentators to reflect in a different context you need a more laid back venue like Slashdot. The problem with sites like Slashdot is to retain authenticity they cannot be profit driven. But there appears to be little room for that kind of thinking in the software ecosystem currently.