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As a Chinese citizen, I would appreciate if you stop thinking about "helping" us. Even if you are genuine, it would come across as condescending. Majority of

As a Chinese citizen, I would appreciate if you stop thinking about "helping" us. Even if you are genuine, it would come across as condescending. Majority of people in China are happy with their lives, we certainly do not see the need for help from other countries in the way you wanted to. Instead, I would suggest you focus on the problems and issues faced in your own country. In Chinese, there is a saying that "Please take care of your own backyard, before thinking of cleaning up other people's backyard." Every country has its own problems, US, Spain, UK and China. Do you see people from UK offering to help solve gun problems in US? Do you see people from US offering to help self-determination problem in Spain? Don't assume you have the moral high ground and Chinese people need your help. Try to talk to Chinese people and understand their perspective first.

nailer 9y ago
I have a very close friend from mainland China and we talk frankly about politics. There's a video that went viral on Weibo a couple of months ago. - A mainland Chinese girl is destroying HK independence posters at a HK university. - A Honkinese girl admonishes her for destroying the posters, as they are free speech. - The mainland Chinese girl says that free speech means that since the Honkinese girl can put up posters the mainland Chinese girl can destroy them - The HK girl says that the mainland Chinese girl can put up her own posters if she wishes. In mainland China, the view is: that the Chinese girl speaks better English than the HK girl and makes an excellent point about how she's allowed to tear down the posters if the other girl can put them up because that's what free speech means. This isn't ironic, it's what people think and that's why the video was popular: because the mainland girl spoke great English, made what seems like a good point, and defended Chinese integrity. Close friend mentions that re: democracy, the people don't have any will at all: they don't really engage with politics. It's someone else's job to lead. You'd want to engage with running the country as much as being a firefighter or running the sewers.
- paradite 9y ago
  Well, yes, I agree that Chinese people are somewhat lacking in critical thinking since so much policies are straight from the government and people just follow. It is very different from HK and US. In fact I think that's the main reason why the government's policies are so successful. If more and more people are travelling abroad and absorbing this idea of free speech, the society would eventually transform and embrace the idea. However, critical thinking has to be there first, with majority of the people capable of making informed decisions, not like the reaction to the video you mentioned.
- cryoshon 9y ago
  >It's someone else's job to lead. i suppose it's my western point of view that makes me view this sentiment as blisteringly immature, if that is indeed what most chinese actually think. the stewardship of your country is always your job as a human being... even if you deny the responsibility, your country will act on your behalf, which means that you must control your leadership. if nobody else is fit to lead, it's your job.
  - paradite 9y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13203027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13203027 This summaries my points on the relationship between people and the government.
    - yahna 9y ago
      Quite frankly, seems like are chugging the kool-aid. If the government is so trustworthy and so eager to please why do they need to take political prisoners at all?
  - vzcx 9y ago
    This strikes me as extremely confused. Chinese society is thousands of years old and has survived dynasty after dynasty, revolution after revolution. Perhaps their personal exit from politics is more earnest accumulated wisdom than blisteringly immature sentiment. Contrast with your statement on stewardship, duty, and responsibility. What is behind this besides sentiment?
    - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
      The society has survived with some level of cultural continuity. A lot of people died in those revolutions and the falling of those dynasties, though. The "wisdom" that China learned from that is "do everything possible to prevent a revolution or a change in dynasty". A better wisdom might be "make the transitions easier so that they don't have to be violent". Peaceful transitions via election are an example of this.
- marcosdumay 9y ago
  I would be wary of deriving social conclusion from trends in social networks.
musage 9y ago
> Do you see people from UK offering to help solve gun problems in US? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/... People help people, while nationalists are off somewhere in their own heads. > Try to talk to Chinese people and understand their perspective first. And that is? They're happy to be unfree, and think everybody else in the world only cares about their own problems, divided by nationality? You said a lot, but not one word about your own, personal perspective. If I asked other Chinese people, would they also only tell me about yet other Chinese people? Then why bother? Also note how you're not asking any questions yourself, either. You just assume others assume moral high ground and tell them, representative for all other Chinese citizens. Even just one political prisoner, in China or any other country, makes the opinion of anyone who is "happy" in that country of rather secondary rank. > In Chinese, there is a saying that "Please take care of your own backyard, before thinking of cleaning up other people's backyard." I'm not an uptight corrupt goon, so for example I can make fun of the Chinese Communist Party and plenty of other politicians in plenty countries. I did take care of my backyard. I'm not responsible for what anyone else of $arbitrary_group_you_think_matters is doing, I'm responsible for what I'm doing. Criticize "my" country and I'll probably add to it, because of course I am critical of the things going on right under my nose. But defensive pouting? What for? Why would I need that?
- rootlocus 9y ago
  > And that is? They're happy to be unfree Just because you love healthy food doesn't mean you go around on the street shoving salad in people's mouths. > You said a lot, but not one word about your own, personal perspective. If I asked other Chinese people He said: > Majority of people in China are happy with their lives, we certainly do not see the need for help from other countries in the way you wanted to. Which I'm pretty sure you can interpret as being how he and his immediate peers feel. > I did take care of my backyard. Unless you country is void of any problems or internal conflict, you've missed the point. Your backyard is your own government not your own appreciation of yourself.
  - musage 9y ago
Jonnax 9y ago
It's funny that you comment on the story of someone being jailed for being an activist with essentially "shut up it's none of your business" The idea of taking care of your own backyard seems pretty similar to the old Soviet Union deflection whenever they were met with criticism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes Many countries have issues, people should be able to criticise even if their own situations aren't perfect. You talk about the majority position. But what about these minorities? Do they feel the same way?
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  > You talk about the majority position. But what about these minorities? Do they feel the same way? Many countries don't have the obsession over multiculturalism that America seems to have. Their priority isn't to have a diverse population, but rather is to raise the quality of life for as many people as possible as quickly as possible, hence the focus on the majority of the population. A homogeneous culture has many benefits during growth, like lower interpersonal conflict. Concepts like democracy and freedom mean very little if the quality of life is low.
  - nexus2045 9y ago
    Why is this being downvoted?
    - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
      Multiculturalism is taught since grade school in America and is seen as the only way to structure a society by most in the country. I actually often get called a racist when I mention to other people that it isn't the only way. edit: I do find it interesting that this comment was downvoted. For those of you downvoting me, could you please explain why? Was my critique on multiculturalism not the reason my post above was downvoted?
    - yahna 9y ago
      because it's a defense of an authoritarian regime?
KekDemaga 9y ago
As a US citizen, if the Chinese people are happy with their government (or at least not unhappy enough to revolt) then the Chinese people should have that government. If the Chinese people are unhappy with their government, then they should revolt and if sufficient momentum is built up in that regard, and we are asked, only then should we consider "helping" anyone. I'd hope the Chinese would treat our sovereignty with the same respect.
mchaver 9y ago
I think the things you mention are actually great ideas. Outsiders may have very different perspectives. Their experience and advice may be helpful or they may miss lots of details and offer completely useless, naive advice. But maybe learn why through dialogue. People are still free to disagree or disregard any the advice. We should equally welcome opinions from Chinese citizens. I would hope blind patriotism would not prevent us from considering viable solutions. > Do you see people from UK offering to help solve gun problems in US? Many people do because the way UK society handles guns is very different from the US. The UK has a lot less gun violence. > Do you see people from US offering to help self-determination problem in Spain? Lots! Many Americans love to share their opinions. Both struggle with balancing the rights of central and local governments.

nailer 9y ago

I have a very close friend from mainland China and we talk frankly about politics. There's a video that went viral on Weibo a couple of months ago. - A mainland Chinese girl is destroying HK independence posters at a HK university. - A Honkinese girl admonishes her for destroying the posters, as they are free speech. - The mainland Chinese girl says that free speech means that since the Honkinese girl can put up posters the mainland Chinese girl can destroy them - The HK girl says that the mainland Chinese girl can put up her own posters if she wishes. In mainland China, the view is: that the Chinese girl speaks better English than the HK girl and makes an excellent point about how she's allowed to tear down the posters if the other girl can put them up because that's what free speech means. This isn't ironic, it's what people think and that's why the video was popular: because the mainland girl spoke great English, made what seems like a good point, and defended Chinese integrity. Close friend mentions that re: democracy, the people don't have any will at all: they don't really engage with politics. It's someone else's job to lead. You'd want to engage with running the country as much as being a firefighter or running the sewers.

paradite 9y ago
Well, yes, I agree that Chinese people are somewhat lacking in critical thinking since so much policies are straight from the government and people just follow. It is very different from HK and US. In fact I think that's the main reason why the government's policies are so successful. If more and more people are travelling abroad and absorbing this idea of free speech, the society would eventually transform and embrace the idea. However, critical thinking has to be there first, with majority of the people capable of making informed decisions, not like the reaction to the video you mentioned.
cryoshon 9y ago
>It's someone else's job to lead. i suppose it's my western point of view that makes me view this sentiment as blisteringly immature, if that is indeed what most chinese actually think. the stewardship of your country is always your job as a human being... even if you deny the responsibility, your country will act on your behalf, which means that you must control your leadership. if nobody else is fit to lead, it's your job.
- paradite 9y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13203027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13203027 This summaries my points on the relationship between people and the government.
  - yahna 9y ago
    Quite frankly, seems like are chugging the kool-aid. If the government is so trustworthy and so eager to please why do they need to take political prisoners at all?
- vzcx 9y ago
  This strikes me as extremely confused. Chinese society is thousands of years old and has survived dynasty after dynasty, revolution after revolution. Perhaps their personal exit from politics is more earnest accumulated wisdom than blisteringly immature sentiment. Contrast with your statement on stewardship, duty, and responsibility. What is behind this besides sentiment?
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    The society has survived with some level of cultural continuity. A lot of people died in those revolutions and the falling of those dynasties, though. The "wisdom" that China learned from that is "do everything possible to prevent a revolution or a change in dynasty". A better wisdom might be "make the transitions easier so that they don't have to be violent". Peaceful transitions via election are an example of this.
marcosdumay 9y ago
I would be wary of deriving social conclusion from trends in social networks.

musage 9y ago

> Do you see people from UK offering to help solve gun problems in US? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/... People help people, while nationalists are off somewhere in their own heads. > Try to talk to Chinese people and understand their perspective first. And that is? They're happy to be unfree, and think everybody else in the world only cares about their own problems, divided by nationality? You said a lot, but not one word about your own, personal perspective. If I asked other Chinese people, would they also only tell me about yet other Chinese people? Then why bother? Also note how you're not asking any questions yourself, either. You just assume others assume moral high ground and tell them, representative for all other Chinese citizens. Even just one political prisoner, in China or any other country, makes the opinion of anyone who is "happy" in that country of rather secondary rank. > In Chinese, there is a saying that "Please take care of your own backyard, before thinking of cleaning up other people's backyard." I'm not an uptight corrupt goon, so for example I can make fun of the Chinese Communist Party and plenty of other politicians in plenty countries. I did take care of my backyard. I'm not responsible for what anyone else of $arbitrary_group_you_think_matters is doing, I'm responsible for what I'm doing. Criticize "my" country and I'll probably add to it, because of course I am critical of the things going on right under my nose. But defensive pouting? What for? Why would I need that?

rootlocus 9y ago
> And that is? They're happy to be unfree Just because you love healthy food doesn't mean you go around on the street shoving salad in people's mouths. > You said a lot, but not one word about your own, personal perspective. If I asked other Chinese people He said: > Majority of people in China are happy with their lives, we certainly do not see the need for help from other countries in the way you wanted to. Which I'm pretty sure you can interpret as being how he and his immediate peers feel. > I did take care of my backyard. Unless you country is void of any problems or internal conflict, you've missed the point. Your backyard is your own government not your own appreciation of yourself.
- musage 9y ago

Jonnax 9y ago

It's funny that you comment on the story of someone being jailed for being an activist with essentially "shut up it's none of your business" The idea of taking care of your own backyard seems pretty similar to the old Soviet Union deflection whenever they were met with criticism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes Many countries have issues, people should be able to criticise even if their own situations aren't perfect. You talk about the majority position. But what about these minorities? Do they feel the same way?

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
> You talk about the majority position. But what about these minorities? Do they feel the same way? Many countries don't have the obsession over multiculturalism that America seems to have. Their priority isn't to have a diverse population, but rather is to raise the quality of life for as many people as possible as quickly as possible, hence the focus on the majority of the population. A homogeneous culture has many benefits during growth, like lower interpersonal conflict. Concepts like democracy and freedom mean very little if the quality of life is low.
- nexus2045 9y ago
  Why is this being downvoted?
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    Multiculturalism is taught since grade school in America and is seen as the only way to structure a society by most in the country. I actually often get called a racist when I mention to other people that it isn't the only way. edit: I do find it interesting that this comment was downvoted. For those of you downvoting me, could you please explain why? Was my critique on multiculturalism not the reason my post above was downvoted?
  - yahna 9y ago
    because it's a defense of an authoritarian regime?

KekDemaga 9y ago

As a US citizen, if the Chinese people are happy with their government (or at least not unhappy enough to revolt) then the Chinese people should have that government. If the Chinese people are unhappy with their government, then they should revolt and if sufficient momentum is built up in that regard, and we are asked, only then should we consider "helping" anyone. I'd hope the Chinese would treat our sovereignty with the same respect.

mchaver 9y ago

I think the things you mention are actually great ideas. Outsiders may have very different perspectives. Their experience and advice may be helpful or they may miss lots of details and offer completely useless, naive advice. But maybe learn why through dialogue. People are still free to disagree or disregard any the advice. We should equally welcome opinions from Chinese citizens. I would hope blind patriotism would not prevent us from considering viable solutions. > Do you see people from UK offering to help solve gun problems in US? Many people do because the way UK society handles guns is very different from the US. The UK has a lot less gun violence. > Do you see people from US offering to help self-determination problem in Spain? Lots! Many Americans love to share their opinions. Both struggle with balancing the rights of central and local governments.