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As previous poster I would advise against this. While your intentions might be good it is usually a bad idea to try to intervene in domestic affairs of another

As previous poster I would advise against this. While your intentions might be good it is usually a bad idea to try to intervene in domestic affairs of another country. See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. You might just anger the local population and fuel anti American sentiment. Plus also the point about Chinese people not necessarily sharing your western liberal values is a good one. It's not true that western values are universal (they are just a product of our society and history) and perhaps they have slightly different set of values based on their society and history.

stale2002 9y ago
What's China gonna do about it? If someone lives in America, then they have nothing to worry about. China can go ban github or something if they get upset over "foreign intervention". Then they will suffer all the economic damages that comes from that. The reason to do something like this is PRECISELY because it makes those who do not support "western liberal values" upset.
- SolaceQuantum 9y ago
  But it also looks like a western person showed up and messed with their system, thereby purposefully sabotaging them and trying to get services blocked to the average Chinese?
  - stale2002 9y ago
    Sabotaging a service by posting things on github that china doesn't like? Seriously. Thats what this is about. People posting true stuff on the internet about china. I am not going to tiptoe around stuff like that, lol.
- wu-ikkyu 9y ago
  >What's China gonna do about it? If someone lives in America, then they have nothing to worry about. If you're on the internet, then you can be targeted by anyone across the world, no matter where you live. Psyops/social engineering, identity theft, DDoS, doxxing, blackmail...
  - stale2002 9y ago
    Oh no, china is going to come after me for posting information about them on the internet that they don't like! Oh no, my anonymous github account will be hacked! Seriously, this shit doesn't happen. There are too many people doing too many things in the world for a government across the world to do much of anything to anyone. I am not ever going to live my life in fear of something dumb, like that. I am going to criticize and offend whatever world governments deserve to be offended. If they don't like it, they can send their secret james bond assassins after me for posting stuff on the internet that hurt their feelings.
    - ashleycole 9y ago
      If someone actually did this successfully, then GitHub is put in a very tough spot where they have to choose between potentially losing the Chinese market, or begin to censor their platform, which could be the beginning of the end for them (I imagine GitLab would certainly take advantage of the situation). China would most definitely retaliate; first by threatening and attacking GitHub, and if that didn't work then block the site completely. This would result in the Chinese companies/government losing billions, their tech progress could be severely hurt, and they would risk enraging the Chinese dev community. It's very naive to think that the people responsible for creating and spreading this repo wouldn't be attacked, and while you might succeed in maintaining anonymity of the GitHub account (risky assumption), you most certainly wouldn't be able to remain anonymous when spreading it on Chinese services like QQ/WeChat/Weibo/etc (at least if an individual were to attempt to do this).
      - stale2002 9y ago
        This kind of stuff has already played out. For years, people have been putting stuff on github, for the purpose of pissing off china. The most famous example is with GreatFire, an organization that helps people get around the great firewall of china. That is why I defended it as a very good example of a way to fight chinese censorship. Because people are literally already doing it, and the attempted attacks on those people, and github, have failed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_GitHub https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_GitHub https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GreatFire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GreatFire China did not win. Github did not get permanently blocked. They got DDoS for a week or something, but ultimately did not lose "billions". The reason these temporary blocking attempts and attacks fail, is because github is a critical piece of infrastructure, and if a country blocks it, then it will suffer massive economic damage, and be forced to reconsider the block. I very much hope that China continues to waste their time on these attacks. They will fail like they failed before. The more desperate they are, the more that they thrash around and fail to achieve any results, the more that people realize how little power they actually have to stop people from spreading information. "This would result in the Chinese companies/government losing billions, their tech progress could be severely hurt, and they would risk enraging the Chinese dev community." Good. Maybe then the Chinese citizens will do something about it. Chinese censorship mostly only hurts their own people (and by extension, it would then hurt the people in power), which will hurt them in the long term. "It's very naive to think that the people responsible for creating and spreading this repo wouldn't be attacked" The GreatFire people seem to be doing just fine, despite how much they have pissed off the chinese government. So empirically, as proven by facts, you are wrong.
- teresonos 9y ago
  The US can extradite foreign citizens for committing crimes against American interests. Whose to say that China can't do the same one day? Maybe the US would never agree, but imagine you are vacationing in some country that has good relations with China.
turk184 9y ago
I don't really care if they share my "western liberal values" because I sure as hell don't share their beat-down, slave-like eastern values! They want to be drones, fine, but we aren't going down to their level.
nailer 9y ago
> See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. The first three were military interventions, very different from fighting censorship. I don't know enough about Egypt/Mubarak to say the level of Western involvement if any. Also China is interfering in other governments - specifically Taiwan and HK - all the time. * * Re: HK, China agreed to allow HK people to vote for the leaders by 2017 in return for sovereignty, and did not fulfill this promise, therefore there is no reason to recognize their sovereignty.
- barry-cotter 9y ago
  > Re: HK, China agreed to allow HK people to vote for the leaders by 2017 in return for sovereignty, and did not fulfill this promise, therefore there is no reason to recognize their sovereignty. Sure there is, short of nuclear war there’s no way to get the PRC’s government out of Hong Kong. And the PRC signed a treaty with the U.K., and the U.K.’s signature on a treaty is dirt. They guaranteed the indivisibility and independence of Cyprus and did nothing when the Greeks invaded, they guaranteed Ukraine’s borders along with Russia and the USA. Two things are always true in international relations; never give up your nukes and never trust the U.K. or USA.
  - nailer 9y ago
    > Sure there is, short of nuclear war there’s no way to get the PRC’s government out of Hong Kong. It's entirely possible PRC could collapse. High growth rates and widespread corruption could easily cause a financial crisis that turns into a political one.
  - vetinari 9y ago
    > They guaranteed the indivisibility and independence of Cyprus and did nothing when the Greeks invaded, Turks, not Greeks > they guaranteed Ukraine’s borders along with Russia and the USA The Ukraine situation has much more nuance than you give credit for. > and never trust the U.K. or USA. As history shows, every superpower has interests, not friends.
    - 9y ago
nradov 9y ago
Providing factual information to people is in no way intervening in the domestic affairs of another country.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  Just like Russia in the recent US election cycle? Or is their propaganda and influence over a country somehow different?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - nradov 9y ago
    Now you're getting off topic. Private citizens making factual information available is literally the opposite of propaganda. It's no surprise that Russia tried to influence US politics. We need to do a better job of educating our citizens on critical thinking, including recognizing propaganda and fake news.
    - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
      > Private citizens making factual information available is literally the opposite of propaganda. This may be true if correctly done, but chances are good that if a state actor tried to Correct the Record, they would add their own political spin or only give information that helps the nation giving the information, and it would be widely seen as propaganda and looked at with disdain by most of the population. Not all of what Russia released was just emotional manipulation. Russia released the DNC emails, which greatly increased political instability despite the fact that it was true. Russia is now seen as a meddler in our democratic process. You don't think similar disdain would be seen towards Americans if we inject political instability into their country?
      - def_true_false 9y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe Would you say this is propaganda?
zipwitch 9y ago
Equating invasions, bombings, and direct material support for local factions to "make some objective history available to people who want to read it" is extremely disingenuous.

stale2002 9y ago

What's China gonna do about it? If someone lives in America, then they have nothing to worry about. China can go ban github or something if they get upset over "foreign intervention". Then they will suffer all the economic damages that comes from that. The reason to do something like this is PRECISELY because it makes those who do not support "western liberal values" upset.

SolaceQuantum 9y ago
But it also looks like a western person showed up and messed with their system, thereby purposefully sabotaging them and trying to get services blocked to the average Chinese?
- stale2002 9y ago
  Sabotaging a service by posting things on github that china doesn't like? Seriously. Thats what this is about. People posting true stuff on the internet about china. I am not going to tiptoe around stuff like that, lol.
wu-ikkyu 9y ago
>What's China gonna do about it? If someone lives in America, then they have nothing to worry about. If you're on the internet, then you can be targeted by anyone across the world, no matter where you live. Psyops/social engineering, identity theft, DDoS, doxxing, blackmail...
- stale2002 9y ago
  Oh no, china is going to come after me for posting information about them on the internet that they don't like! Oh no, my anonymous github account will be hacked! Seriously, this shit doesn't happen. There are too many people doing too many things in the world for a government across the world to do much of anything to anyone. I am not ever going to live my life in fear of something dumb, like that. I am going to criticize and offend whatever world governments deserve to be offended. If they don't like it, they can send their secret james bond assassins after me for posting stuff on the internet that hurt their feelings.
  - ashleycole 9y ago
    If someone actually did this successfully, then GitHub is put in a very tough spot where they have to choose between potentially losing the Chinese market, or begin to censor their platform, which could be the beginning of the end for them (I imagine GitLab would certainly take advantage of the situation). China would most definitely retaliate; first by threatening and attacking GitHub, and if that didn't work then block the site completely. This would result in the Chinese companies/government losing billions, their tech progress could be severely hurt, and they would risk enraging the Chinese dev community. It's very naive to think that the people responsible for creating and spreading this repo wouldn't be attacked, and while you might succeed in maintaining anonymity of the GitHub account (risky assumption), you most certainly wouldn't be able to remain anonymous when spreading it on Chinese services like QQ/WeChat/Weibo/etc (at least if an individual were to attempt to do this).
    - stale2002 9y ago
      This kind of stuff has already played out. For years, people have been putting stuff on github, for the purpose of pissing off china. The most famous example is with GreatFire, an organization that helps people get around the great firewall of china. That is why I defended it as a very good example of a way to fight chinese censorship. Because people are literally already doing it, and the attempted attacks on those people, and github, have failed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_GitHub https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_GitHub https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GreatFire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GreatFire China did not win. Github did not get permanently blocked. They got DDoS for a week or something, but ultimately did not lose "billions". The reason these temporary blocking attempts and attacks fail, is because github is a critical piece of infrastructure, and if a country blocks it, then it will suffer massive economic damage, and be forced to reconsider the block. I very much hope that China continues to waste their time on these attacks. They will fail like they failed before. The more desperate they are, the more that they thrash around and fail to achieve any results, the more that people realize how little power they actually have to stop people from spreading information. "This would result in the Chinese companies/government losing billions, their tech progress could be severely hurt, and they would risk enraging the Chinese dev community." Good. Maybe then the Chinese citizens will do something about it. Chinese censorship mostly only hurts their own people (and by extension, it would then hurt the people in power), which will hurt them in the long term. "It's very naive to think that the people responsible for creating and spreading this repo wouldn't be attacked" The GreatFire people seem to be doing just fine, despite how much they have pissed off the chinese government. So empirically, as proven by facts, you are wrong.
teresonos 9y ago
The US can extradite foreign citizens for committing crimes against American interests. Whose to say that China can't do the same one day? Maybe the US would never agree, but imagine you are vacationing in some country that has good relations with China.

turk184 9y ago

I don't really care if they share my "western liberal values" because I sure as hell don't share their beat-down, slave-like eastern values! They want to be drones, fine, but we aren't going down to their level.

nailer 9y ago

> See Iraq/Iran/Libya/Egypt and other examples from Middle East. The first three were military interventions, very different from fighting censorship. I don't know enough about Egypt/Mubarak to say the level of Western involvement if any. Also China is interfering in other governments - specifically Taiwan and HK - all the time. * * Re: HK, China agreed to allow HK people to vote for the leaders by 2017 in return for sovereignty, and did not fulfill this promise, therefore there is no reason to recognize their sovereignty.

barry-cotter 9y ago
> Re: HK, China agreed to allow HK people to vote for the leaders by 2017 in return for sovereignty, and did not fulfill this promise, therefore there is no reason to recognize their sovereignty. Sure there is, short of nuclear war there’s no way to get the PRC’s government out of Hong Kong. And the PRC signed a treaty with the U.K., and the U.K.’s signature on a treaty is dirt. They guaranteed the indivisibility and independence of Cyprus and did nothing when the Greeks invaded, they guaranteed Ukraine’s borders along with Russia and the USA. Two things are always true in international relations; never give up your nukes and never trust the U.K. or USA.
- nailer 9y ago
  > Sure there is, short of nuclear war there’s no way to get the PRC’s government out of Hong Kong. It's entirely possible PRC could collapse. High growth rates and widespread corruption could easily cause a financial crisis that turns into a political one.
- vetinari 9y ago
  > They guaranteed the indivisibility and independence of Cyprus and did nothing when the Greeks invaded, Turks, not Greeks > they guaranteed Ukraine’s borders along with Russia and the USA The Ukraine situation has much more nuance than you give credit for. > and never trust the U.K. or USA. As history shows, every superpower has interests, not friends.
  - 9y ago

nradov 9y ago

Providing factual information to people is in no way intervening in the domestic affairs of another country.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
Just like Russia in the recent US election cycle? Or is their propaganda and influence over a country somehow different?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- nradov 9y ago
  Now you're getting off topic. Private citizens making factual information available is literally the opposite of propaganda. It's no surprise that Russia tried to influence US politics. We need to do a better job of educating our citizens on critical thinking, including recognizing propaganda and fake news.
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    > Private citizens making factual information available is literally the opposite of propaganda. This may be true if correctly done, but chances are good that if a state actor tried to Correct the Record, they would add their own political spin or only give information that helps the nation giving the information, and it would be widely seen as propaganda and looked at with disdain by most of the population. Not all of what Russia released was just emotional manipulation. Russia released the DNC emails, which greatly increased political instability despite the fact that it was true. Russia is now seen as a meddler in our democratic process. You don't think similar disdain would be seen towards Americans if we inject political instability into their country?
    - def_true_false 9y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe Would you say this is propaganda?

zipwitch 9y ago

Equating invasions, bombings, and direct material support for local factions to "make some objective history available to people who want to read it" is extremely disingenuous.