11 ms·
Evidence of the body’s waste system in the human brain
- ruytlm 9y agoInteresting stuff, though I could have sworn I'd seen something similar before, to do with the waste draining being one of the reasons we need sleep (i.e. the body needs time to drain the accumulated waste products). Anecdotally, whenever I've had that droopy-eyelids nodding off sensation, when it passes it has always felt like the tiredness is literally draining from my brain.
- amacbride 9y agoYou're probably thinking of the so-called "glymphatic system" that was in the news a few years back. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glymphatic_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glymphatic_system
- ruytlm 9y agoYep, that's exactly the one I was thinking of. Thank you!
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- tim333 9y agoSee also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebrospinal_fluid#Circulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebrospinal_fluid#Circulatio... with a nice MRI of fluid being pumped around. Though I think a different system to the one in this article.
- ars 9y ago> being one of the reasons we need sleep Jellyfish have no brain, but also sleep. So that can't be the reason. (It might happen then anyway, but it's not the fundamental reason.)
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- yeukhon 9y agoWe don’t need to sleep, but our body will put us to sleep. There is no clear answer as to why we sleep. But one acceptable theory is our brain “understands” sleeping is going to help functioning. During sleep our immune system finally has the opportunity to clean up waste. The 2017 Nobel Prize winners for Medicine and Physiology discovered there are genes famously work as “inner clock”, and they think these genes are responsible for all the routines in our body. But fundamentally we still do not have an absolute answer to why we sleep, just like we have several theories on why we dream. However, I believe whatever theories exist for why we sleep and why we dream, they are union of a bigger theory, not mutually exclusive. [1]: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/2017/apr/09/science-of-sleep-genetics https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/201... [2]: https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/2017/press.html https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/2...
- katastic 9y agoYou guys keep saying that silly myth. They don't have a BRAIN but they have nervous system. A nervous system creates waste and that waste needs to be reclaimed. What's a brain? An exotic collection of neurons... that create waste. http://neurodojo.blogspot.com/2009/05/jellyfish-nervous-system-myth-busted.html http://neurodojo.blogspot.com/2009/05/jellyfish-nervous-syst... >Instead, jellyfish have a ring nervous system, located along the margin of the bell. There is definitely a concentration of neurons in that location (although it contains relatively few neurons compared to other animals). Plus, those neurons do serve as an active relay and processing station for sensory and motor activity. Those are two of the main things that central nervous systems do, so there seems to be no good reason to deny that jellyfish have a central nervous system. (Picture from Mackie and Meech, 2000.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of_neurons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of_n... Jellyfish: 5,600 neurons. Box jellyfish: 8,700-17,500 neurons. Human: 86,000,000,000 neurons. Notice jellyfish do not have "zero" neurons. Further, from the wiki: "Not all animals have neurons; Trichoplax and sponges lack nerve cells altogether." https://www.quora.com/Do-sponges-sleep https://www.quora.com/Do-sponges-sleep "Do sponges sleep?" "As noted by others, sponges lack nervous systems, [...] sponges don't have nerve cells at all. So NO they don't 'sleep" in any manner similar to other animals."
- djohnston 9y agoI hope this will lead to new targets for neurodegenerative proteinopathies.
- ggm 9y agoAm I alone in finding it stunning that it's 2017 and we can still discover new anatomy? How can this not have been (re)discovered?
- manmal 9y agoI agree. I thought we were past that point of figuring out the structural parts. To me, the most interesting things are metabolic pathways, which are incredibly complex, photobiomodulation (effects of eg near infrared light), and electromagnetism (eg electrolyte channels can be triggered by em radiation). But knowledge about this lymph system in the brain could prove SO useful for so many disorders. If eg bodyweight set points are modulated by inflammation in the hypothalamus, would this not in some way be affected by the lymph system?
- ggm 9y agoTotally agree. Or potential blood-brain barrier busting channels to get things into and out of the brain..
- indubitable 9y agoLooking at this abstractly, there is a fun quote from Albert Michelson in 1894: "While it is never safe to affirm that the future of Physical Science has no marvels in store even more astonishing than those of the past, it seems probable that most of the grand underlying principles have been firmly established and that further advances are to be sought chiefly in the rigorous application of these principles to all the phenomena which come under our notice. It is here that the science of measurement shows its importance — where quantitative work is more to be desired than qualitative work. An eminent physicist remarked that the future truths of physical science are to be looked for in the sixth place of decimals." Albert Michelson is the Michelson of the Michelson-Morley experiment that showed that the speed of light was identical from all perspectives - a discovery that was soon to completely revolutionize our understanding and notion of physics. The comment was also made shortly before quantum mechanics would really begin to be delved into, further revolutionizing physics. We only know what we know. And that's all we know - until we know more. In the case of the brain in particular we have practically zero causal and holistic understanding. And much of what we do know has been driven by pharmacological profit motive, which doesn't necessarily yield the most objective science and certainly constraints it in any case. Ultimately, I'd be rather more surprised if there are not a vast number of fundamental discoveries yet to be made!
- ponco 9y agoThat was exceptionally easy to digest as someone with very limited medical / bio knowledge
- etiam 9y agoAt first I was incredulous that they would make this claim, since it makes it appear they either failed to follow the literature enough to notice other researchers made the remarkable discovery of this system three years ago, or are trying history revisionism to claim that discovery as their own. But I guess the operative word here is "human". The original research actually gets a small mention in the text body. Another case of a small but valuable increment of research and nauseating treatment of the same by the spin department I guess.
- adaml_623 9y agoI would be helpful to supply a link to the research from 3 years ago that you are mentioning.
- dom0 9y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meningeal_lymphatic_vessels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meningeal_lymphatic_vessels > While it was initially believed that both the brain and meninges were devoid of lymphatic vasculature, a recent study by Antoine Louveau and Jonathan Kipnis at the University of Virginia, submitted in October 2014, and another confirming the discovery, by Aleksanteri Aspelund and Kari Alitalo at the University of Helsinki submitted in December 2014, identified and described the basic biology of the meningeal lymphatics using a combination of histological, live-imaging, and genetic tools. I'm not sure whether these are the same entities?
- etiam 9y agoFair point adaml_623. And yes, these are the right thing.
- jmcgough 9y agoI heard an NPR interview yesterday, and they were pretty clear that they based this on previous studies done by others that found it in rats. They had to spend 2-3 years figuring out the right technique to test for it in human cadavers, so their work was really in confirming that the same system is present in humans.
- wiz21c 9y agoCan this mean that if one has a lot of stress, then its brain makes a lot of waste which pollute the lymph and thus affects the immune system ? ('cos it's well known that stressed people get sick quicker)
- robbiep 9y agoStress is a factor of hormones and metabolic factors. Brain has constant metabolic consumption whether awake or asleep. Endocrine functions of brain are carried out by release of hormones directly into portal (venous) systems. Intracellular adenosine which builds up over the course of waking day may be uptaken by brain lymphatics but would play a small part if they are inside the dura as this states. In fact, given clearance rate that is suggested from the article by way of position and size, they likely contribute very minimally to any clearance function if at all(unless further discoveries show intra brain lymphatics)
- wiz21c 9y agoD*mn, that's what I call an answer. Thank you very much !
- efficax 9y agoOne thing this does seem to suggest is an explanation of why exercise encourages brain health. The lymphatic system only circulates well when the body is in movement, so exercise would help the lymphatic fluid circulate through the brain and thus help "clean" it.
- kensai 9y agoThis one, together with the original rodent observation in 2015, is one of the few "macroscopic" observations in anatomy the last decades. Since most of the details of human and higher mammal anatomy have already been described, it is rather rare and outstanding to make such new, remarkable observations. PS: I work in an Anatomy Department.
- amelius 9y agoI'm not a biologist, but can't this type of discovery be made by doing e.g. RNA-Seq analysis of cells in different parts of the body? I can imagine that every type of cell has a unique fingerprint, and lymphatic cells would be easily identified when sampled in the brain this way.
- wookey 9y agoClearly they exist how else do you explain why many people's heads are full of crap. I think there are many peoples lymph's blocked causing the head to fill. :)
- amelius 9y agoIs it more active during sleep?
- Schizotypy 9y agoI think sleep studies tracking lymphatic activity will be coming soon. At least I would hope
- mysterypie 9y ago> the team discovered lymphatic vessels in the dura, the leathery outer coating of the brain Can someone explain why these vessels were never discovered during autopsies until now? Are they too thin, or transparent, or thought to have been something else, or the tubes become squished after death and therefore difficult to separate from other tissue, or what?
- Boothroid 9y agoI wonder the same thing. Not to be snarky, but is there something faulty about medics or human biologists?! Why do I have a feeling that if we deployed computer scientists at medical research we would get a better result? I can accept that at the lower level things get fiendishly complex, but surely at a macro level like this it's just a case of diligent analysis?
- junke 9y agohttps://xkcd.com/1831/ https://xkcd.com/1831/
- skocznymroczny 9y agoReplace "Algorithms" with "Machine learning" and you have 2017.
- Boothroid 9y agoHardly the same thing.
- pc86 9y agoIt is... exactly what you're saying. Except it's satire, and unfortunately you seem to be serious.
- Boothroid 9y agoRead: I can accept that at the lower level things get fiendishly complex, but surely at a macro level like this it's just a case of diligent analysis? How are they missing features that are visible with the human eye? I find it incredible. Also, XKCD meme is the tiredest meme around.
- blubb-fish 9y agoThis is very interesting for martial arts practitioners. It's highly plausible that this waste system is the missing link between Parkinson and Alzheimer and concussions due to head strikes. I'd assume that a strike to the head will - if severe enough - first impair the dura mater. This might impair the waste system and by that facilitate inflammations in the long run.
- e40 9y agoI wonder what the mechanism is for non-concussed people with Parkinson's and Alzheimer's? Is it related to the dura?
- mebebil 9y agoHaven't read it just replying to the headline. I think it is amazing that how a systemic approach to medicine could affect modern medicine. Defining the boundary and the inputs/outputs are the most important aspect of understanding any system. I was wondering whether the stuff that this new lymphatic vessels carry were still known to be dumped off the brain by blood or otherwise, or were assumed to remain in or to be used up by the brain.
- kingkawn 9y agoLots of disbelief in comments here, having done dissections I think it is entirely believable that a structure this subtle could escape definition. Dissection is not trivial.
- johnvega 9y agoGreat example that attention to details is important, and that great discoveries can be just around the corner, so to speak.
- noiv 9y agoEvidence of the brain’s waste system would be equally appreciated.
- k__ 9y agoDoes this mean we get medication that will clean up the brain?
- amai 9y agoSee also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13327056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13327056