3 ms·

In the time period we're talking about, what you're saying is not trivial. Hell, it's not even trivial today - look at the stereotypical 'poor white trash' guy.

by vacri 9y ago

In the time period we're talking about, what you're saying is not trivial. Hell, it's not even trivial today - look at the stereotypical 'poor white trash' guy. Scrub him up and put him in a suit, and the way he talks and behaves isn't going to make him indistinguishable at an upper-class dinner party. Or a different angle: take a modern-day American and put him in the UK. Without a lot of work, it's clear what his origin is from his speech and his customs, despite the similar cultures. Now go back 500-1000 years, where people didn't move around much (sometimes enforced by law) and most people only spoke their regional dialect. And if you were able to move town, the work you knew how to do was still the shit work for the lowest class - it's not like you could just pick up silversmithing on a lark, for example.

sitkack 9y ago
A couple of MOOCs or a bootcamp and they could make 80-120k in 16 weeks.
munificent 9y ago
> They spoke the same language as the people in an area > and generally kept the same religion as well. Their > only distinguishing feature was their descent from > families identified as Cagots.
- mastazi 9y ago
  Yes but they were prevented from participating to various trades, which means that even if they moved somewhere else they would have lacked the know-how, this was not trivial in that era, given that formal education was not available to the vast majority of people, and given that the usual way to learn any trade was to be an apprentice at your parents' business. In addition moving to a new place was not trivial, you would have been questioned as to why did you move by the locals and you would have had no land to start with. All of this changed only with the industrial revolution, when moving from your ancestral place became "normal".
- vacri 9y ago
  The comment I was responding to was "if you could move". And in my first paragraph, I gave you two clear examples of where someone can speak the same language and still have their origins be identifiable.
- cwyers 9y ago
  I think you're underestimating how much linguistic drift and regional dialects and accents there were before widespread literacy and then radio, film and television helped to further standardize things. They spoke the same way as the people in their area -- but that's no guarantee they wouldn't stick out if they moved far enough away that nobody would recognize them.
  - MandieD 9y ago
    You can still encounter different dialects from one Alpine valley to another in Austria and South Tyrol (part of northern Italy since after WWI, but still culturally south German), audible to even a non-native but attentive German speaker. The older the speaker, the stronger the dialect.
  - mastazi 9y ago
    In central Italy (e.g. Tuscany or Umbria), still nowadays, you can experience a clearly recognizable change in accent by just moving to the next village 5-10 km down the road. Until not so long ago, it was normal in many places in Europe to call "foreigner" anyone who was not from the same village (my grandparents, born in the first half of the '900 in a village which is less than 30 km from Rome, called people from Rome "stranieri" which in Italian means "foreigners"). This must sound almost incredible to someone from e.g. North America, but you need to realize the feudal past left major traces in modern European culture.

by vacri 9y ago

sitkack 9y ago

A couple of MOOCs or a bootcamp and they could make 80-120k in 16 weeks.

munificent 9y ago

> They spoke the same language as the people in an area > and generally kept the same religion as well. Their > only distinguishing feature was their descent from > families identified as Cagots.

mastazi 9y ago
Yes but they were prevented from participating to various trades, which means that even if they moved somewhere else they would have lacked the know-how, this was not trivial in that era, given that formal education was not available to the vast majority of people, and given that the usual way to learn any trade was to be an apprentice at your parents' business. In addition moving to a new place was not trivial, you would have been questioned as to why did you move by the locals and you would have had no land to start with. All of this changed only with the industrial revolution, when moving from your ancestral place became "normal".
vacri 9y ago
The comment I was responding to was "if you could move". And in my first paragraph, I gave you two clear examples of where someone can speak the same language and still have their origins be identifiable.
cwyers 9y ago
I think you're underestimating how much linguistic drift and regional dialects and accents there were before widespread literacy and then radio, film and television helped to further standardize things. They spoke the same way as the people in their area -- but that's no guarantee they wouldn't stick out if they moved far enough away that nobody would recognize them.
- MandieD 9y ago
  You can still encounter different dialects from one Alpine valley to another in Austria and South Tyrol (part of northern Italy since after WWI, but still culturally south German), audible to even a non-native but attentive German speaker. The older the speaker, the stronger the dialect.
- mastazi 9y ago
  In central Italy (e.g. Tuscany or Umbria), still nowadays, you can experience a clearly recognizable change in accent by just moving to the next village 5-10 km down the road. Until not so long ago, it was normal in many places in Europe to call "foreigner" anyone who was not from the same village (my grandparents, born in the first half of the '900 in a village which is less than 30 km from Rome, called people from Rome "stranieri" which in Italian means "foreigners"). This must sound almost incredible to someone from e.g. North America, but you need to realize the feudal past left major traces in modern European culture.