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OK sure, but it assumes that young student would be able to discriminate a money-making investment from a money-losing one-- something the best VC's in the busi

OK sure, but it assumes that young student would be able to discriminate a money-making investment from a money-losing one-- something the best VC's in the business, who vet tech deals all day every day, struggle to do. Imagine you repeal all accredited investment regs overnight. Which of these seems likely: - everyone in america invests $1000 in a future facebook, ten years later we're a nation of millionaires. - 10% of the middle class (a huge number of people) wholly or partially cashes out retirement funds to put too much money into speculative early stage startups chasing fantastic returns. They lose it. Kids lose college funds, adults lose retirement funds, and we / society / government has to pick up the tab when such people get too old to work. The point is, it's easy to attack these regulations as a barrier to opportunity and an unfair impediment to your right to do whatever you want with your own money. That's fair as far as it goes, but you also have to grapple with the real consequences of changing the policy. I have a hard time with your analysis that accredited investment rules have no "public good." Phrased differently,the view on the ground in middle America is this: lots of middle-class people buy lottery tickets. Why do you suppose they do that?

whataretensors 9y ago
Young Warren Buffet could. I can go to Vegas and lose all my money on dice. There aren't laws to prevent this. Why are there laws to prevent my ability to invest? The regulation makes more sense as a way to keep the opportunities exclusive to the powerful, while regulators get to claim a moral high ground.
- wakamoleguy 9y ago
  In many places in the United States, there actually are laws to prevent gambling.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - lojack 9y ago
    That’s clearly a straw man argument. A) The federal government doesn’t ban gambling. B) As far as I’m aware there isn’t a single place in this country where gambling is/isn’t allowed for those with specific net worths.
    - wakamoleguy 9y ago
      It's not a strawman. The parent is suggesting that we as a people have no problem with allowing low-income or low-net-worth people to gamble (pointing to the acceptance of Las Vegas as evidence). Then an equivalence is drawn between gambling and securities investing. By pointing out that, in fact, 31 states make commercial casinos illegal[1], I am refuting the suggestion that gambling is considered acceptable, which weakens the argument that securities investing should be acceptable as well. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling_in_the_United_States
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - DennisP 9y ago
        Meanwhile 44 states run lotteries. Apparently gambling is acceptable in principle, just not competition with the states' games. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotteries_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotteries_in_the_United_States
        wakamoleguy 9y ago
        I'm not sure it's that simple. There's a wide spectrum of types of gambling, and equal variation in the laws regulating those types. Going to Vegas and losing your money on dice sounds like commercial casinos, which is why I chose to highlight it. Most states do have lotteries, as you point out, and gambling where the proceeds go to charity is also legal in most states (see previous sources in this thread). Once you start shifting the type of gambling, though, you also get further from the analogy at hand. One way to look at it is that providing revenue for education or charities could be seen as a public good that outweighs the undesirability of gambling. To take it back to the original argument, the question is then to decide where investing sits on that spectrum. I am not sure, but I do think there are enough reasonable differences between investing in securities, commercial casino gambling, and lotteries to expect that they may have different regulations.
nkrisc 9y ago
You already have the opportunity to bankrupt yourself with lottery tickets and casinos, yet most people don't.
- notahacker 9y ago
  Casinos offer better odds than early stage startups you have no connection with or control over, and aren't allowed to market themselves as investment opportunities either
  - nkrisc 9y ago
    Perhaps then it makes more sense to regulate those seeking money instead of those investing?
    - notahacker 9y ago
      The regulation does regulate those seeking money. Non-accredited investors are still perfectly entitled to invest their money in their friends and family's startups and/or more heavily-regulated IPOs, but startups aren't allowed to solicit the investments from the public, and have limitations on how much they can take from how many non-accredited investors.
ringaroundthetx 9y ago
> something the best VC's in the business, who vet tech deals all day every day, struggle to do. You just answered the rebuttal, which is supported by data. VCs don't outperform the S&P 500. Trying to support that everyone outside a specific industry is too dumb to be able to be risk-on just ignores too much. I think this argument and rebuttals are red herrings. The SEC tried non-net-worth tests, before settling on the net-worth tests, they were intelligence (financial literacy) tests which were also a nightmare for the entire industry and perpetuated rampant discrimination across socioeconomic and racial lines. Still, this current outcome should not be seen as the end all be all, and it merely hasn't been challenged adequately because the people rich enough to challenge it aren't affected by it, and the poorer classes barely know they are being so blatantly discriminated against because the private investments were prohibited from advertising to them at all!

whataretensors 9y ago

Young Warren Buffet could. I can go to Vegas and lose all my money on dice. There aren't laws to prevent this. Why are there laws to prevent my ability to invest? The regulation makes more sense as a way to keep the opportunities exclusive to the powerful, while regulators get to claim a moral high ground.

wakamoleguy 9y ago
In many places in the United States, there actually are laws to prevent gambling.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- lojack 9y ago
  That’s clearly a straw man argument. A) The federal government doesn’t ban gambling. B) As far as I’m aware there isn’t a single place in this country where gambling is/isn’t allowed for those with specific net worths.
  - wakamoleguy 9y ago
    It's not a strawman. The parent is suggesting that we as a people have no problem with allowing low-income or low-net-worth people to gamble (pointing to the acceptance of Las Vegas as evidence). Then an equivalence is drawn between gambling and securities investing. By pointing out that, in fact, 31 states make commercial casinos illegal[1], I am refuting the suggestion that gambling is considered acceptable, which weakens the argument that securities investing should be acceptable as well. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling_in_the_United_States
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - DennisP 9y ago
      Meanwhile 44 states run lotteries. Apparently gambling is acceptable in principle, just not competition with the states' games. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotteries_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotteries_in_the_United_States
      - wakamoleguy 9y ago
        I'm not sure it's that simple. There's a wide spectrum of types of gambling, and equal variation in the laws regulating those types. Going to Vegas and losing your money on dice sounds like commercial casinos, which is why I chose to highlight it. Most states do have lotteries, as you point out, and gambling where the proceeds go to charity is also legal in most states (see previous sources in this thread). Once you start shifting the type of gambling, though, you also get further from the analogy at hand. One way to look at it is that providing revenue for education or charities could be seen as a public good that outweighs the undesirability of gambling. To take it back to the original argument, the question is then to decide where investing sits on that spectrum. I am not sure, but I do think there are enough reasonable differences between investing in securities, commercial casino gambling, and lotteries to expect that they may have different regulations.

nkrisc 9y ago

You already have the opportunity to bankrupt yourself with lottery tickets and casinos, yet most people don't.

notahacker 9y ago
Casinos offer better odds than early stage startups you have no connection with or control over, and aren't allowed to market themselves as investment opportunities either
- nkrisc 9y ago
  Perhaps then it makes more sense to regulate those seeking money instead of those investing?
  - notahacker 9y ago
    The regulation does regulate those seeking money. Non-accredited investors are still perfectly entitled to invest their money in their friends and family's startups and/or more heavily-regulated IPOs, but startups aren't allowed to solicit the investments from the public, and have limitations on how much they can take from how many non-accredited investors.

ringaroundthetx 9y ago

> something the best VC's in the business, who vet tech deals all day every day, struggle to do. You just answered the rebuttal, which is supported by data. VCs don't outperform the S&P 500. Trying to support that everyone outside a specific industry is too dumb to be able to be risk-on just ignores too much. I think this argument and rebuttals are red herrings. The SEC tried non-net-worth tests, before settling on the net-worth tests, they were intelligence (financial literacy) tests which were also a nightmare for the entire industry and perpetuated rampant discrimination across socioeconomic and racial lines. Still, this current outcome should not be seen as the end all be all, and it merely hasn't been challenged adequately because the people rich enough to challenge it aren't affected by it, and the poorer classes barely know they are being so blatantly discriminated against because the private investments were prohibited from advertising to them at all!