4 ms·

> There is a fine line between collaboration and dialogue. I think this is a very important point that a lot of people don't quite get. For example, I am a pa

> There is a fine line between collaboration and dialogue. I think this is a very important point that a lot of people don't quite get. For example, I am a pacificist. When I tell this to people, they sometimes assume I would stand aside and do nothing if a loved one was threatened with violence. In fact, the opposite is true: I would act aggressively and assertively (or I hope I would). Pacifist != Passive Acting with compassion for those who hate you does not disarm your ability to aggressively support and defend your rights. Really, in such a case, one should strive to be increasingly effective. The author of this article found a point of leverage that was effective in achieving his goals. I don't think I'd call what he was doing "dialogue," even though talking was part of it.

m_mueller 9y ago
> The author of this article found a point of leverage that was effective in achieving his goals. I don't think I'd call what he was doing "dialogue," even though talking was part of it. Exactly. It's like using the feather as a replacement to the sword, figuratively speaking. It's essentially brainwashing people, but in a positive sense of the word, i.e. washing out tribal thoughts that are cancerous to a wider open society.
ggreer 9y ago
> For example, I am a pacificist. When I tell this to people, they sometimes assume I would stand aside and do nothing if a loved one was threatened with violence. This seems like an own-goal, as the popular perception of pacifism is just that: never using violence. I recommend not using the term on yourself, as it paints the wrong picture in people's minds. If you define pacifism as "only using violence in defense of self or loved ones", then that's totally compatible with getting a concealed carry permit and carrying a gun in public– not exactly most people's idea of pacifism.
- 0xcde4c3db 9y ago
  The error is in equating "doing something" with "using violence".
  - ggreer 9y ago
    A cryptic response. Besides running away (which is often not possible) what other options are there?
    - e12e 9y ago
      Perhaps somewhat inaccurate wrt a direct threat against family, but this image comes to mind: http://www.greanvillepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Tiananmen-man-tank.jpg http://www.greanvillepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Tia...
- JacobJans 9y ago
  > If you define pacifism as "only using violence in defense of self or loved ones" I never defined pacifism that way. It seems you are falling exactly into the trap I talked about. There are always options other than violence. They are not always good options, but neither is violence. Aggressive and assertive action is not the same as violence.
  - ggreer 9y ago
    Can you please give a concrete example of what you are talking about? As I've said: you can't always escape a threat. What "aggressive and assertive action" will you take if some crazy person tries to cave your head in with a cinder block? (This has happened to me.) Three times in my life, people have tried to kill me. Sometimes you can't escape. Sometimes you can't negotiate. And you can't count on others to arrive in time and use violence to save you. Sometimes, the choice is simple: fight or die. Do you disagree with this statement? If not, do you think the right thing to do in those situations is to die?
richk449 9y ago
> "For example, I am a pacifist. When I tell this to people, they sometimes assume I would stand aside and do nothing if a loved one was threatened with violence. In fact, the opposite is true: I would act aggressively and assertively (or I hope I would). Pacifist != Passive" It sounds as if people are confused because you are using the word pacifist incorrectly. Pacifism means that you believe violence is never the answer. Look at a list of definitions: Pacifism: the belief that any violence, including war, is unjustifiable under any circumstances, and that all disputes should be settled by peaceful means. Pacifism: opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes Pacifism: an attitude or policy of nonresistance Pacifism: opposition to war or violence of any kind Your position may be reasonable, but it isn't pacifism.
- JacobJans 9y ago
  Of course pacifism means violence is never the answer. And that is exactly what I meant. I also believe that pacifism doesn't stop me from acting aggressively and assertively. I fail to see how my position is not "pacifism."

m_mueller 9y ago

> The author of this article found a point of leverage that was effective in achieving his goals. I don't think I'd call what he was doing "dialogue," even though talking was part of it. Exactly. It's like using the feather as a replacement to the sword, figuratively speaking. It's essentially brainwashing people, but in a positive sense of the word, i.e. washing out tribal thoughts that are cancerous to a wider open society.

ggreer 9y ago

> For example, I am a pacificist. When I tell this to people, they sometimes assume I would stand aside and do nothing if a loved one was threatened with violence. This seems like an own-goal, as the popular perception of pacifism is just that: never using violence. I recommend not using the term on yourself, as it paints the wrong picture in people's minds. If you define pacifism as "only using violence in defense of self or loved ones", then that's totally compatible with getting a concealed carry permit and carrying a gun in public– not exactly most people's idea of pacifism.

0xcde4c3db 9y ago
The error is in equating "doing something" with "using violence".
- ggreer 9y ago
  A cryptic response. Besides running away (which is often not possible) what other options are there?
  - e12e 9y ago
    Perhaps somewhat inaccurate wrt a direct threat against family, but this image comes to mind: http://www.greanvillepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Tiananmen-man-tank.jpg http://www.greanvillepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Tia...
JacobJans 9y ago
> If you define pacifism as "only using violence in defense of self or loved ones" I never defined pacifism that way. It seems you are falling exactly into the trap I talked about. There are always options other than violence. They are not always good options, but neither is violence. Aggressive and assertive action is not the same as violence.
- ggreer 9y ago
  Can you please give a concrete example of what you are talking about? As I've said: you can't always escape a threat. What "aggressive and assertive action" will you take if some crazy person tries to cave your head in with a cinder block? (This has happened to me.) Three times in my life, people have tried to kill me. Sometimes you can't escape. Sometimes you can't negotiate. And you can't count on others to arrive in time and use violence to save you. Sometimes, the choice is simple: fight or die. Do you disagree with this statement? If not, do you think the right thing to do in those situations is to die?

richk449 9y ago

> "For example, I am a pacifist. When I tell this to people, they sometimes assume I would stand aside and do nothing if a loved one was threatened with violence. In fact, the opposite is true: I would act aggressively and assertively (or I hope I would). Pacifist != Passive" It sounds as if people are confused because you are using the word pacifist incorrectly. Pacifism means that you believe violence is never the answer. Look at a list of definitions: Pacifism: the belief that any violence, including war, is unjustifiable under any circumstances, and that all disputes should be settled by peaceful means. Pacifism: opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes Pacifism: an attitude or policy of nonresistance Pacifism: opposition to war or violence of any kind Your position may be reasonable, but it isn't pacifism.

JacobJans 9y ago
Of course pacifism means violence is never the answer. And that is exactly what I meant. I also believe that pacifism doesn't stop me from acting aggressively and assertively. I fail to see how my position is not "pacifism."