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I've just watched some parts of Ken Burns' doc, and I'm a little disappointed. It tries to be so impartial/objective but at the same time I feel it portrays the

by cies 9y ago

I've just watched some parts of Ken Burns' doc, and I'm a little disappointed. It tries to be so impartial/objective but at the same time I feel it portrays the US gov't as rationally acting from necessity, where the protesters are shown as destructive and the north viets as mysterious/wild/weak-but-many (the doc barely shows their side of the story). It occurs to my that I think the opposites are true. US gov't was acting irrational/anti-freedom/for-no-good-cause/destructive. The protesters were right and managed to pressure the gov'ts quite a bit with their "slight-destruction". Finally the north viets very very human, and they sacrificed a lot themselves for their just cause. They were right to fight for self determination; it is what the US also had to do at some point (and takes great pride from). Especially in the current geo-political climate we need to see the human toll of these totally useless wars. No body attacked the US for a while, yet it has attacked/destabilized many countries. It, again, spends more then half of its budget on war with no end. And now has a wildcard president picking fights with a, this time, nuclear power. Wtf. Finally, it gets mentioned in the doc, but very lightly (end of part 3): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident The admitted "false flag" or "fake" attack that served as a pretext for the US to get into war. This is a HUGE part of the story. There was no good reason for entering, "we the people" never wanted to join, so a reason was fabricated. Disgusting. Completely in line with the low moves Hitler made to get his war going. TL;DR: Don't watch Ken's doc.

matwood 9y ago
> US gov't was acting irrational/anti-freedom/for-no-good-cause/destructive. How old are you? Valid question. My younger friends who missed being alive during the real fear of Russia/Communism often say exactly what you said. People who are old enough to remember that time period, even if it was the very end, understand a little better the mood of the world at that time. History does not happen in a vacuum. While it may have been irrational in hindsight, at the time the spread of Russian communism was a real and valid fear (the documentary even talks of France telling the US if it did not help in Vietnam they would consider aligning with Russia). If only the US knew then that it would basically win a culture victory barely ~20 years later. Your TLDR is seems to say ignore history and believe the very simplistic view of a war mongering US. If wars were only that simple, they could probably be avoided.
- cies 9y ago
  > How old are you? 30s > My younger friends who missed being alive during the real fear of Russia/Communism often say exactly what you said. That fear was mongered. Socialist ideology is there to help the workers: only capitalists have to fear it. It's not worked out well, even for many workers -- I blame that on a bad (highly authoritarian) route to implement socialist ideals, not on those ideal by themselves. Capitalists made the US workers afraid of commies, because they saw it as a thread. You've been fooled. > at the time the spread of Russian communism was a real and valid fear Seriously? I call it an unfounded and irrational fear, mongered by super wealthy (that were really afraid to have "their" assets seized by the workers). Valid? Not for the working class. > Your TLDR is seems to say ignore history and believe the very simplistic view of a war mongering US. If wars were only that simple, they could probably be avoided. No! I advocate not to watch this doc because it is a waste of your time. Nothing new is there. And it does say "US was evil, lets learn from it and do not do it again" -- which I believe in the current geo-political mess it the right think to do. (Yes I'm talking to you: ALL RECENT US PRESIDENTS) How can you justify the US has not been war mogenring recently. I see huge military (they call it defense, lol) budgets. I see no WMDs in Iraq, no danger for the US in Libya, no danger for the US Afgan/Iran/Syria. These are not peace missions. People die and US seems to make it worse. Gadaffi->Isis; Saddam->Isis; Assad->Isis. And now aggression to NK. Have some restraint, c'mon! > If only the US knew then that it would basically win a culture victory barely ~20 years later. Please explain this, and how it matters to the discussion.
kjs3 9y ago
I apparently am watching a completely different Ken Burns doco than you are. I find myself thinking "wow, I forgot how completely fucking corrupt Nixon was" or "wow, Johnson really was up his own ass" every episode.

by cies 9y ago

matwood 9y ago

> US gov't was acting irrational/anti-freedom/for-no-good-cause/destructive. How old are you? Valid question. My younger friends who missed being alive during the real fear of Russia/Communism often say exactly what you said. People who are old enough to remember that time period, even if it was the very end, understand a little better the mood of the world at that time. History does not happen in a vacuum. While it may have been irrational in hindsight, at the time the spread of Russian communism was a real and valid fear (the documentary even talks of France telling the US if it did not help in Vietnam they would consider aligning with Russia). If only the US knew then that it would basically win a culture victory barely ~20 years later. Your TLDR is seems to say ignore history and believe the very simplistic view of a war mongering US. If wars were only that simple, they could probably be avoided.

cies 9y ago
> How old are you? 30s > My younger friends who missed being alive during the real fear of Russia/Communism often say exactly what you said. That fear was mongered. Socialist ideology is there to help the workers: only capitalists have to fear it. It's not worked out well, even for many workers -- I blame that on a bad (highly authoritarian) route to implement socialist ideals, not on those ideal by themselves. Capitalists made the US workers afraid of commies, because they saw it as a thread. You've been fooled. > at the time the spread of Russian communism was a real and valid fear Seriously? I call it an unfounded and irrational fear, mongered by super wealthy (that were really afraid to have "their" assets seized by the workers). Valid? Not for the working class. > Your TLDR is seems to say ignore history and believe the very simplistic view of a war mongering US. If wars were only that simple, they could probably be avoided. No! I advocate not to watch this doc because it is a waste of your time. Nothing new is there. And it does say "US was evil, lets learn from it and do not do it again" -- which I believe in the current geo-political mess it the right think to do. (Yes I'm talking to you: ALL RECENT US PRESIDENTS) How can you justify the US has not been war mogenring recently. I see huge military (they call it defense, lol) budgets. I see no WMDs in Iraq, no danger for the US in Libya, no danger for the US Afgan/Iran/Syria. These are not peace missions. People die and US seems to make it worse. Gadaffi->Isis; Saddam->Isis; Assad->Isis. And now aggression to NK. Have some restraint, c'mon! > If only the US knew then that it would basically win a culture victory barely ~20 years later. Please explain this, and how it matters to the discussion.

kjs3 9y ago

I apparently am watching a completely different Ken Burns doco than you are. I find myself thinking "wow, I forgot how completely fucking corrupt Nixon was" or "wow, Johnson really was up his own ass" every episode.