5 ms·

Paul Mus, Ho Chi Minh, and Me

68 points by wormold 9y ago

wormold 9y ago
I changed the title to make it clearer that this is a personal story. Not trying to start a political argument. It's just a fascinating story.
- Torwald 9y ago
  There is nothing wrong with a political argument. (It would be a very narrow minded view on business building and IT, if you'd think of them as apolitical.)
  - dang 9y ago
    HN's guidelines ask people to avoid, not political arguments as such, but flamewars, which is what they lead to on the internet: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. This isn't naively denying the political for the supposedly non-political—of course there are politics in everything. It's about the limitations of the internet forum as a medium. We can't have both flamewars and stay interesting, and the mandate of the site is to try to stay interesting. Flames are lame. Re "business building and IT", I suppose I should add that HN is absolutely not just about business and technology—never has been and never will be, as long as I have a say.
    - Synaesthesia 9y ago
      I don’t know if I like this rule, I’ve had some great political discussions on HN and I don’t see why we shouldn’t discuss it. Many times I’ve seen posts removed for what I can only think are ideological reasons.
      - dang 9y ago
        > for what I can only think are ideological reasons That perception tends to be in the eye of the beholder, in the sense that people of all ideological commitments see HN as being censored in favor of the opposite side, in proportion to the strength of their own feeling. I've written about this a bunch: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=false&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment&query=by:dang%20cognitive%20bias https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=false&page=0&date... https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment&query=13110004 https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix&page=0&dateRange=...
- da02 9y ago
  Thanks for posting this. Good luck in avoiding a political argument.
indescions_2017 9y ago
Excellent writing. And if you haven't been watching Ken Burns' Vietnam War doc, it's an absolute masterpiece: http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam-war/watch/ http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam-war/watch/
- knz 9y ago
  +1 for the recommendation. The first episode should be required viewing for anyone wanting to understand the post WW2 geopolitical world order and how the US became involved in such a mess. The rest of the series (especially once Nixon comes onto the scene) is like watching a slow descent into madness (the public polls and reaction after Kent State and Mai Lie astounded me).
  - Synaesthesia 9y ago
    I don’t know I’ve read a lot of legitimate criticism of the show, basically that it’s continuing the same old whitewashing of the war. Having read for example, how Noam Chomsky describes the Vietnam war, I have a very different perspective on it that what is promulgated in the mass media. According to the show “was begun in good faith by decent people out of fateful misunderstandings, American overconfidence and Cold War misunderstandings”. It also inaccurately says the Gulf of Tonkin attacks occurred when there’s plenty of evidence to the contrary (Pentagon papers!) I haven’t watched the show but I bet it doesn’t characterize the war as the invasion of South Vietnam by the US, which it plainly was, a old style colonial war to prevent a nationalist revolution and to teach the region a lesson in what happens to those who pursue and independent course.
    - brokenbyclouds 9y ago
      I've watched every episode of the series and from what I saw, they cast it very close to how you described it.
    - eighthnate 9y ago
      I don't think you should watch Burns' documentaries or any documentaries as history, but as works of art. And Burns' Vietnam War is a great work of art. And you have to appreciate that he is making a film for an audience and naturally, he will cater a significant part of it to that audience. There is no such thing as a completely unbiased documentary or history book or political text. They are all made by biased people. But I think Burns' gave every major side and every major viewpoint a voice in his documentary. And that's all we can ask. I think his film was as objective and fair as anyone, or any american, can be. But you have to be cognizant of the fact that it is an american documentary by american filmmakers for an american audience.
alexdong 9y ago
More, please.
- jdale27 9y ago
  Looks like there are quite a few posts by the same author on the blog: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/richard_sale/ http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/richard_s...
Synaesthesia 9y ago
Ho Chi Minh admired the US and actually modeled his nationalist revolution on the US revolution, even using the preamble to the US Declaration of Independence in his own Declaration of Independence. http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/ps/vietnam/independence.pdf http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/ps/vietnam/independence.pdf The US initially supported his independence movement, during and just after the war, but then sided with the French suppression of it and started it’s long involvement in the conflict.
awl130 9y ago
Ho Chi Minh is very much recognized across Asia for precisely the strengths outlined in this essay: his brilliant intelligence, chess-play like negotiations and fierce dedication to the Vietnamese people. That was quite a lesson for me to learn coming from the American education system.

68 points by wormold 9y ago

I changed the title to make it clearer that this is a personal story. Not trying to start a political argument. It's just a fascinating story.

Torwald 9y ago
There is nothing wrong with a political argument. (It would be a very narrow minded view on business building and IT, if you'd think of them as apolitical.)
- dang 9y ago
  HN's guidelines ask people to avoid, not political arguments as such, but flamewars, which is what they lead to on the internet: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. This isn't naively denying the political for the supposedly non-political—of course there are politics in everything. It's about the limitations of the internet forum as a medium. We can't have both flamewars and stay interesting, and the mandate of the site is to try to stay interesting. Flames are lame. Re "business building and IT", I suppose I should add that HN is absolutely not just about business and technology—never has been and never will be, as long as I have a say.
  - Synaesthesia 9y ago
    I don’t know if I like this rule, I’ve had some great political discussions on HN and I don’t see why we shouldn’t discuss it. Many times I’ve seen posts removed for what I can only think are ideological reasons.
    - dang 9y ago
      > for what I can only think are ideological reasons That perception tends to be in the eye of the beholder, in the sense that people of all ideological commitments see HN as being censored in favor of the opposite side, in proportion to the strength of their own feeling. I've written about this a bunch: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=false&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment&query=by:dang%20cognitive%20bias https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=false&page=0&date... https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment&query=13110004 https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix&page=0&dateRange=...
da02 9y ago
Thanks for posting this. Good luck in avoiding a political argument.

indescions_2017 9y ago

Excellent writing. And if you haven't been watching Ken Burns' Vietnam War doc, it's an absolute masterpiece: http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam-war/watch/ http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam-war/watch/

knz 9y ago
+1 for the recommendation. The first episode should be required viewing for anyone wanting to understand the post WW2 geopolitical world order and how the US became involved in such a mess. The rest of the series (especially once Nixon comes onto the scene) is like watching a slow descent into madness (the public polls and reaction after Kent State and Mai Lie astounded me).
- Synaesthesia 9y ago
  I don’t know I’ve read a lot of legitimate criticism of the show, basically that it’s continuing the same old whitewashing of the war. Having read for example, how Noam Chomsky describes the Vietnam war, I have a very different perspective on it that what is promulgated in the mass media. According to the show “was begun in good faith by decent people out of fateful misunderstandings, American overconfidence and Cold War misunderstandings”. It also inaccurately says the Gulf of Tonkin attacks occurred when there’s plenty of evidence to the contrary (Pentagon papers!) I haven’t watched the show but I bet it doesn’t characterize the war as the invasion of South Vietnam by the US, which it plainly was, a old style colonial war to prevent a nationalist revolution and to teach the region a lesson in what happens to those who pursue and independent course.
  - brokenbyclouds 9y ago
    I've watched every episode of the series and from what I saw, they cast it very close to how you described it.
  - eighthnate 9y ago
    I don't think you should watch Burns' documentaries or any documentaries as history, but as works of art. And Burns' Vietnam War is a great work of art. And you have to appreciate that he is making a film for an audience and naturally, he will cater a significant part of it to that audience. There is no such thing as a completely unbiased documentary or history book or political text. They are all made by biased people. But I think Burns' gave every major side and every major viewpoint a voice in his documentary. And that's all we can ask. I think his film was as objective and fair as anyone, or any american, can be. But you have to be cognizant of the fact that it is an american documentary by american filmmakers for an american audience.

alexdong 9y ago

More, please.

jdale27 9y ago
Looks like there are quite a few posts by the same author on the blog: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/richard_sale/ http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/richard_s...

Synaesthesia 9y ago

Ho Chi Minh admired the US and actually modeled his nationalist revolution on the US revolution, even using the preamble to the US Declaration of Independence in his own Declaration of Independence. http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/ps/vietnam/independence.pdf http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/ps/vietnam/independence.pdf The US initially supported his independence movement, during and just after the war, but then sided with the French suppression of it and started it’s long involvement in the conflict.

awl130 9y ago

Ho Chi Minh is very much recognized across Asia for precisely the strengths outlined in this essay: his brilliant intelligence, chess-play like negotiations and fierce dedication to the Vietnamese people. That was quite a lesson for me to learn coming from the American education system.