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I've heard pro-independence people twisting facts for over 20 years... Not surprised anymore. Democracy is deciding new law based on current law following peop

by ktzar 9y ago

I've heard pro-independence people twisting facts for over 20 years... Not surprised anymore. Democracy is deciding new law based on current law following people's desires... Like it or not, every day meter of Catalan soil belongs as much to a Catalan woman as to an Andalusian man... Nobody in his right mind would say that Catalonia is an oppressed region by Spain's government... Quite the opposite actually.

elecbit 9y ago
Democracy is listening the majority of a group, without forgetting and respecting the minorities. You don't argument why Catalonia is not opressed. Banning all the laws emerging from its parliament is not respecting. Sorry Spaniards, we will vote. It's not about you, it's about us. It's not about us feeling superior or supremacist. It's about deciding our way, as we think too different in too many things. We can be good neighbours.
- euyyn 9y ago
  > [Catalonia is oppressed:] Banning all the laws emerging from its parliament is not respecting. Not all laws emerging from its parliament are ruled unconstitutional by the courts. And unconstitutional laws enacted by any parliament in Spain are banned by the courts, Catalonia or not. It's not really a matter of respect.
  - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
    That's why Spanish Constitutional Court tore down articles of the Catalan Estatut (sort of regional constitution) that are accepted in exactly the same terms for others and are even covered in the Spanish Constitution. E.g. "Catalonia is a nation". The Spanish Constitution says "Catalonia is a nationality" while the Andalusian Estatuto says "Andalusia is a nation".
    - euyyn 9y ago
      A 1min Google search gives: TÍTULO PRELIMINAR Artículo 1. Andalucía. 1. Andalucía, como nacionalidad histórica y en el ejercicio del derecho de autogobierno que reconoce la Constitución, se constituye en Comunidad Autónoma en el marco de la unidad de la nación española y conforme al artículo 2 de la Constitución. http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/html/especiales/NuevoGobiernoVIII/images/17estatuto.pdf http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/html/especiales/NuevoGobierno... Unless that's not the most current estatuto, you've been misled.
      - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        Not sure if you're native Spanish speaker or not, but nacionalidad is nación when talking about a group of people (simplifying as typing from mobile) The count is of about 30 different articles. Here's a comment from El País (hardly pro-indy or pro-catalan) about it: https://elpais.com/diario/2007/07/05/espana/1183586424_850215.html https://elpais.com/diario/2007/07/05/espana/1183586424_85021...
        euyyn 9y ago
        I'm a native speaker, yes. You say "The Spanish Constitution says Catalonia is a nationality". It does indeed (emphasis mine): La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española, patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas. The Andalusian estatuto almost uses the exact same words, "nacionalidad historica" in the "unidad de la nación española". Can hardly be considered against the Constitution. Agreed? One can argue that "Cataluña es una nación" is a valid interpretation of the Constitution (I won't, because I'm not a constitutional lawyer and I don't think you are either), but you can't really use the Andalusian estatuto to support that the Tribunal Constitucional gives inconsistent rulings. (And has the Andalusian one even been challenged? I don't think the Tribunal Constitucional can strike down laws that haven't been brought to them).
        NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        That's the thing: The Andalusian hasn't been challenged, while the Catalan is scrutinized to the detail and the party that's now in government gathers 4 million signatures against it: https://elpais.com/elpais/2006/04/25/actualidad/1145953019_850215.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2006/04/25/actualidad/1145953019_8... (They wanted all Spain to vote on the Catalan Estatut!!! Would they do that for all regions???)
adventured 9y ago
> Like it or not, every day meter of Catalan soil belongs as much to a Catalan woman as to an Andalusian man Like it or not, Catalonia will break away from Spain if it wants to and there's nothing Spain can do to stop it short of murdering thousands of people. That's the choice Spain will have to make when it comes down to it.
- pvaldes 9y ago
  > there's nothing Spain can do except murdering lots of people That would be horrible, for sure, but don't worry. Using my disheveled imagination I think that asking the people responsible of breaking the laws to explain their behaviour in front of a jury could be one (very obvious) thing that Spain could do. It seems that they are doing it yet, in fact.
drdeca 9y ago
> Democracy is deciding new law based on current law following people's desires This does not seem like the correct definition to me. Suppose that a country is an absolute dictatorship, with the exception that the citizens may vote on the color of a bikeshed, and their word goes for the color of the bikeshed regardless of the dictator's preference for the color of the bikeshed, and that this is all enshrined in law. This would not be a democratic country. Democracy is based on people voting on the decisions being made. "deciding the new law based on the current law" is not a fundamental part of democracy? That is not to say that I don't think that "deciding the new law based on the current law" is valuable. I strongly agree that it is valuable. But it is not, I think, an essential part of what democracy is.
- harperlee 9y ago
  You are right in that just voting does not a democracy make. But in the same vein, restricting communication and organization of groups does not immediately a dictatorship make. The current status is complicated and a failure of politicians' ability to do their job, but the fact is that trying to split the country unilaterally is currently illegal and wrong from at least some very sound points of view (another comment put it very well: Catalonia is as much of the Andalusians as of the Catalans). So the government is now forced to stop this - they would otherwise be letting Andalusians be robbed. It is their job to block the referendum. It was also their job to avoid this situation by creating avenues of dialogue though... So in my opinion their next task in their job is to resign.

by ktzar 9y ago

elecbit 9y ago

Democracy is listening the majority of a group, without forgetting and respecting the minorities. You don't argument why Catalonia is not opressed. Banning all the laws emerging from its parliament is not respecting. Sorry Spaniards, we will vote. It's not about you, it's about us. It's not about us feeling superior or supremacist. It's about deciding our way, as we think too different in too many things. We can be good neighbours.

euyyn 9y ago
> [Catalonia is oppressed:] Banning all the laws emerging from its parliament is not respecting. Not all laws emerging from its parliament are ruled unconstitutional by the courts. And unconstitutional laws enacted by any parliament in Spain are banned by the courts, Catalonia or not. It's not really a matter of respect.
- NetStrikeForce 9y ago
  That's why Spanish Constitutional Court tore down articles of the Catalan Estatut (sort of regional constitution) that are accepted in exactly the same terms for others and are even covered in the Spanish Constitution. E.g. "Catalonia is a nation". The Spanish Constitution says "Catalonia is a nationality" while the Andalusian Estatuto says "Andalusia is a nation".
  - euyyn 9y ago
    A 1min Google search gives: TÍTULO PRELIMINAR Artículo 1. Andalucía. 1. Andalucía, como nacionalidad histórica y en el ejercicio del derecho de autogobierno que reconoce la Constitución, se constituye en Comunidad Autónoma en el marco de la unidad de la nación española y conforme al artículo 2 de la Constitución. http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/html/especiales/NuevoGobiernoVIII/images/17estatuto.pdf http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/html/especiales/NuevoGobierno... Unless that's not the most current estatuto, you've been misled.
    - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
      Not sure if you're native Spanish speaker or not, but nacionalidad is nación when talking about a group of people (simplifying as typing from mobile) The count is of about 30 different articles. Here's a comment from El País (hardly pro-indy or pro-catalan) about it: https://elpais.com/diario/2007/07/05/espana/1183586424_850215.html https://elpais.com/diario/2007/07/05/espana/1183586424_85021...
      - euyyn 9y ago
        I'm a native speaker, yes. You say "The Spanish Constitution says Catalonia is a nationality". It does indeed (emphasis mine): La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española, patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas. The Andalusian estatuto almost uses the exact same words, "nacionalidad historica" in the "unidad de la nación española". Can hardly be considered against the Constitution. Agreed? One can argue that "Cataluña es una nación" is a valid interpretation of the Constitution (I won't, because I'm not a constitutional lawyer and I don't think you are either), but you can't really use the Andalusian estatuto to support that the Tribunal Constitucional gives inconsistent rulings. (And has the Andalusian one even been challenged? I don't think the Tribunal Constitucional can strike down laws that haven't been brought to them).
        NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        That's the thing: The Andalusian hasn't been challenged, while the Catalan is scrutinized to the detail and the party that's now in government gathers 4 million signatures against it: https://elpais.com/elpais/2006/04/25/actualidad/1145953019_850215.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2006/04/25/actualidad/1145953019_8... (They wanted all Spain to vote on the Catalan Estatut!!! Would they do that for all regions???)

adventured 9y ago

> Like it or not, every day meter of Catalan soil belongs as much to a Catalan woman as to an Andalusian man Like it or not, Catalonia will break away from Spain if it wants to and there's nothing Spain can do to stop it short of murdering thousands of people. That's the choice Spain will have to make when it comes down to it.

pvaldes 9y ago
> there's nothing Spain can do except murdering lots of people That would be horrible, for sure, but don't worry. Using my disheveled imagination I think that asking the people responsible of breaking the laws to explain their behaviour in front of a jury could be one (very obvious) thing that Spain could do. It seems that they are doing it yet, in fact.

drdeca 9y ago

> Democracy is deciding new law based on current law following people's desires This does not seem like the correct definition to me. Suppose that a country is an absolute dictatorship, with the exception that the citizens may vote on the color of a bikeshed, and their word goes for the color of the bikeshed regardless of the dictator's preference for the color of the bikeshed, and that this is all enshrined in law. This would not be a democratic country. Democracy is based on people voting on the decisions being made. "deciding the new law based on the current law" is not a fundamental part of democracy? That is not to say that I don't think that "deciding the new law based on the current law" is valuable. I strongly agree that it is valuable. But it is not, I think, an essential part of what democracy is.

harperlee 9y ago
You are right in that just voting does not a democracy make. But in the same vein, restricting communication and organization of groups does not immediately a dictatorship make. The current status is complicated and a failure of politicians' ability to do their job, but the fact is that trying to split the country unilaterally is currently illegal and wrong from at least some very sound points of view (another comment put it very well: Catalonia is as much of the Andalusians as of the Catalans). So the government is now forced to stop this - they would otherwise be letting Andalusians be robbed. It is their job to block the referendum. It was also their job to avoid this situation by creating avenues of dialogue though... So in my opinion their next task in their job is to resign.