11 ms·

The spanish constituion explicitly states that Spain is an indivisible country. Hence, the Constituional Court (that is elected by the parliament) has ruled out

The spanish constituion explicitly states that Spain is an indivisible country. Hence, the Constituional Court (that is elected by the parliament) has ruled out that any referendum about independence is illegal. At this point, the government says that both them and the judiciary powers are just defending the democratic rules, and Catalonia's government is the one at fault for all this hassle. The problem is that it is accepted that there's a wide majority of catalan people who want a referendum, and here we are...

pvaldes 9y ago
And this is not the end of the history. Would be naively opening the door to a full hell of pain. Try to give one candy to calm a child having a tantrum in a room full of them and see what happens when the other children realize that crying, breaking toys and banging the head on the wall equals to be rewarded with sweets. You allow somebody to break the law and jump over the constitution just because they are inconsolable otherwise. You fell in the trap. Now you must grant the same treatment to the rest. Similar referendums were demanded (and should have to be allowed in the very next day) for Euskadi, Galicia, Canary Islands, Asturias, Leon, Andalucia and only god knows what more. Two can play this game, and ten also. The idea is not Germany allowing or not a referendum for Bavaria; or UK trying to please Scottland; the idea would be: you must now be forced to grant referendums for each single state in Deutschland or UK to make us happy "or we will stop breathing (and will create a permanent state of confrontation and street disturbs)".
- ukoki 9y ago
  So? If they want independence who are we to deny it? If your spouse wants a divorce, if your children wish to disown you — you can't deny them just because it's an inconvenience — it is their right.
  - QAPereo 9y ago
    Countries are not people, they don't respect or love each other, they oscillate between peace and war. The history of every major nation is a history of violence and conquest, not freely entered union. So, why deny independence? Because only the optics have changed, not the reality?
    - wav-part 9y ago
      > Countries are not people, they don't respect or love each other, they oscillate between peace and war. The history of every major nation is a history of violence and conquest, not freely entered union. IMO that has not been true for last 70 yrs. Point to me a war that has been People vs People. The fact of the current world is People Are Sovereign. If some >=N people domiciled in continuous region wants self-determination, thats their human right.
      - kgwgk 9y ago
        I suspect that those who want to separate Catalonia from the rest of the country wouldn’t agree with the human right of the people in the Barcelona metropolitan are to choose by themselves their own future...
        NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        They do agree though. Barcelona, Aran, whatever. You name it. Just start the political movement and it'll be respected. I think it's a fair ask.
        euyyn 9y ago
        It won't be respected by all, not even by all ERC politicians. Don't fall into the trap of thinking Catalonia is somehow free of hypocrites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMA7KdGxn0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMA7KdGxn0
        NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        Ok. By the way, can I get your crystal ball? There's this lottery thing...
        euyyn 9y ago
        Your mocking argument is that only magicians can expect people to maintain their views?
  - pvaldes 9y ago
    And if my children would want to commit suicide, steal and crash cars, or enter in a sect; who am I to deny them such reasonable demands? ... their loving father or something? for Pete's sake, you, bad parent, they have rights!, and politicians that advise them well! Break the law, my minions, is funny (Specially to me, when I'll run with your money and deny to even know you... fools).
    - kristiandupont 9y ago
      So you are arguing that this is solely for Cataluñas own sake and that they don't know themselves what they are doing so Spain must protect them?
      - freshhawk 9y ago
        I mean, at this point do we need to clarify? Yes, the commenter is a fascist and yes that is basically what they believe, although it would be more about the rule of law than any kind of protection.
      - pvaldes 9y ago
        Dunno... Is the duty of the government from your nation to protect you?. (tip: the correct answer starts with Y, but not for the spurious reasons that you claim. Is because, as citizen of your country, you have some constitutional rights. No matter if you are super-smart or a frozen cabbage sending your 11yo children to a warfield). Any nation must try to protect their citizens all the time (even from themselves if were the case). Spain is not different in that sense to any other country. Sometimes is not possible, sadly.
  - euyyn 9y ago
    Unlike a spouse which is one person with a single will and identity, it's not even clear how to decide who is Catalan enough to have a vote in this.
    - enriquto 9y ago
      > it's not even clear how to decide who is Catalan enough to have a vote in this. All residents in Catalonia have the right to vote in this referendum, regardless of their origin. So your comment is basically empty.
      - euyyn 9y ago
        The fact that it is how this referendum was designed doesn't mean it's fair. E.g. why would a foreigner that's been living in Catalonia for a few weeks, and plans to move away within a month to never return, have more of a say than a Catalan that spent 40 years there but had to move abroad two months ago in search of a job?
        NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        That's not how it works. You might want to read about it before having an opinion on a straw man. For the record: Spaniards living in Catalonia for at least 6 months can vote. Foreigners can't, like in General or Regional elections.
        euyyn 9y ago
        I was basing it on what the parent commenter said. I can't really tell if he's in the wrong or you are because, as you said, I haven't looked it up myself. Even with your version my fairness argument stands. How is it fair that a Catalan expat isn't allowed to vote, and an Andalusian that might be there just for a few months is? Expats are certainly allowed to vote in General elections.
        NetStrikeForce 9y ago
  - pvaldes 9y ago
    This analogy is repeated again and again but is a bad example. A divorce is not "a right", is an agreement regulated by law between two previously married people to put a legal end to the relationship. The true fact is that I can't divorce from my wife without her permit and she could not divorce from me without me agreeing to sign the divorce papers. Does not match the case of one part splitting unilaterally. A better term for this case would be marital abandonment, and a even better term would be family abuse. There is not such thing like a "right to desert your family keeping the house for yourself only".
    - oh_sigh 9y ago
      Historically, has the federal government pumped more resources into Catalonia than it extracted from it, or the other way around?
      - plafl 9y ago
        Maybe it's not zero-sum
        oh_sigh 9y ago
        Sure, it probably is. But if that is the case, the answer is even more straight forward: Separation is okay.
      - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        There's no federal government, it's not a federation. Historically the central government has extracted money and resources from Catalonia. Catalonia was one of the first regions in Spain to develop its industry and definitely the strongest on that: https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolución_industrial_en_España https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolución_industrial_en_Esp... These days it is widely accepted that the Catalan people send 16 billion per year to Spain that are never returned. That wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't because our infrastructures are underfunded and only around 35% of the budgeted investments were actually executed: http://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/estado-ejecucion-infraestructuras-catalunya-2016_162615_102.html http://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/estado-ejecucion-infra... But this is not just an economic grievance. The issue is way more complex and includes (but not restricted to) language, cultural and respect issues. Edit: This comment is now at 0. Please argue instead of downvoting. You're breaking HN's rules.
literallycancer 9y ago
Changing the constitution isn't feasible? Are there any pro-separation parties in the national parliament?
- jsdario 9y ago
  It is completely feasible. In fact Spain was the project of many different kingdoms (or "nations" by modern standards): Basque, Aragon/Catalan, Galician and Castilian. Not only that but many modern leftist political parties advocate for self determination freedom within our constitution. So the fact that the Catalan parliament with a simple majority of separatists are claiming unilateral referendum of independence in a free country is just to gather momentum.
  - kilburn 9y ago
    Come on jsdario... It is indeed possible to change the constution, but: 1) You need 3/5ths of the camera to do so. 2) There is only one significant state-wide party supporting self determination (podemos, which a very young party that entered the scene only in the last election). 3) The major parties (PP and PSOE, which would be like the republicans and democrats in the state) are both overtly against self determination. In any case, having to change the constitution amounts to having to get the support of 3/5ths of spain. This is hardly self-determination, don't you think?
    - jsdario 9y ago
      I may agree it's really hard, but the response is accurate. It is still possible. These kind of restrictions exist to defend people of tyranny. The same restrictions exists in Catalonian Parliament for things such as changing the "Estatut". It is not right for a simple majority to enforce their will over the people their opposition represent. Therefore the referendum is not legal, nor legitimate.
      - elecbit 9y ago
        Tyranny is a group not allowing another group to decide what to do. Hear yourself: "the referendum is not legal". Such a nice view of what democracy is. So willing to vote and say goodbye to this bla-bla-bla-this is not legal, that is not legal. Good bye opressors. My deceased family in the war the dicator won will be really happy if we can finally separate. Too many open wounds you have never tried to heal.
jacquesm 9y ago
Governments usually do not like to give up the money making portions of their countries and neither does the population of the rest of the country. You never see a poor part of a country seceding (well, other than Quebec maybe).
- literallycancer 9y ago
  Slovakia was much poorer than the Czech part of Czechoslovakia. The decision to split was made by the politicians rather than the people in a referendum though. Seems to be working out quite OK for everyone so far.
- Mikeb85 9y ago
  Quebec never did secede though, and they're definitely not 'poor'.
- tartuffe78 9y ago
  The South in the U.S. Civil War?
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    The people driving that were very wealthy.
  - int_19h 9y ago
    The South expected massive cotton revenues to prop its economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Cotton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Cotton
    - QAPereo 9y ago
      To be fair however, it was known how the war would proceed before the outset! In the words of General Sherman: You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it… Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail. People are not rational however, and the wealthy landowners were facing the extinction of their wealth... so they started a war.
kodablah 9y ago
> and Catalonia's government is the one at fault for all this hassle. My interpretation of GP's comment was about the draconian approach towards silencing internet activity. Is it believed the raiding of ISPs, outright blocking of websites, etc is the fault of Catalonia's government or Spain's?
- kilburn 9y ago
  Internet activity that promotes illegal actions is already illegal, and there are laws in spain allowing for these raids and closures. Edit: "Getting away with it" is mostly a question of "which side are you on?". Independentists and most non-government supporters think that what's going on is outrageous, whereas government supporters are totally fine with it. These laws where passed mainly to fight against piracy (think thepiratebay). Of course the excuse was that it was a tool against terrorism and pedophilia though ;)
  - elecbit 9y ago
    Think out of the box. Is moral a law that forbids people speaking? Self-determination is in the human rights and Catalonia has more than 1000 years of history, culture and language. Democracy cannot be illegal, so this banning must be disobbeyed. Without disobbeying, woman and black people would not vote nowadays, so history proves it is a good way to take down immoral legal laws. EDIT: UN experts say that Spain must respect fundamental rights in Catalonia. Freedom of expression, freedom of press and power separation is at stake. http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22176&LangID=E http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?Ne... This is about democracy.
    - ktzar 9y ago
      I've heard pro-independence people twisting facts for over 20 years... Not surprised anymore. Democracy is deciding new law based on current law following people's desires... Like it or not, every day meter of Catalan soil belongs as much to a Catalan woman as to an Andalusian man... Nobody in his right mind would say that Catalonia is an oppressed region by Spain's government... Quite the opposite actually.
toyg 9y ago
> The spanish constitution ... was drafted 40 years ago by a Franchist establishment concerned with maintaining a certain degree of continuity. It's not surprising that the people most oppressed by Franco are not particularly happy with the result. Besides, the Wilson doctrine is usually more relevant for this sort of movements than whichever piece of paper is supposed to be law here or there. A population cannot be denied the right to self-determination, which includes splitting off if they really want to. It can be a stupid move (see Brexit), but people must be given the possibility to democratically discuss it and vote on it; because otherwise things will eventually go full Balkan, and you never want to go full Balkan.
- euyyn 9y ago
  That Constitution was voted in referendum by the whole country, and the support it got in Catalonia was even greater than in Madrid. > the people most oppressed by Franco Let's at least agree that this is subjective.
  - toyg 9y ago
    People voted for a dramatic improvement in the status quo, not necessarily for a perfect document. It was drafted by 7 hand-picked representatives, 4 of which were basically franchists, and ratified by franchist institutions before being put to a popular vote. Had it been written in a more democratic way, by an assembly of people elected democratically, maybe it would have been different and more respectful of different identities; but it wasn’t, because franchist interests were still very strong.
    - euyyn 9y ago
      That is pure revisionism. > It was drafted by 7 hand-picked representatives, 4 of which were basically franchists Two out of the seven writers of the Constitution were Catalan (~1/3 of the writers for ~1/6 of the population). One of them a communist. The other one, exiled during the dictatorship for supporting Catalan nationalism. > ratified by franchist institutions before being put to a popular vote Before being put to a popular vote, it was ratified by the Congress that resulted from the first free elections in Spain in 40 years. The francoist party of Fraga only won 16/350 seats in that Congress; comparable to the 11 seats obtained by the Catalan party of Pujol. Half the seats had been won by centrist voters, and the other half by marxist voters. This Congress was our "assembly of people elected democratically", that could tell the writers to go back to their drafts until the result was to their liking. Those seven writers, by the way, weren't "hand-picked": they were picked by that Congress, among their members; they were all freely-elected representatives.
gotbeans 9y ago
I think he's talking about the "how" (blocking internet, policialization) not about the "why".
NetStrikeForce 9y ago
The Constitutional Court hasn't ruled out yet. Just suspended it while they deliberate. That's why most of the actions taken have been ordered by the Attorney General and not a court... Because the ref is not illegal :)
- euyyn 9y ago
  Why would the TSJC judge be ordering things like taking apps and websites down, if the referendum weren't illegal?
  - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
    Ask them about it :-) but I could guess their logic: - They don't want people to vote. - Maybe if it's suspended you should refrain from going on with it until there's a ruling. - They know what how they want the ruling to be, so they act like it was done already. They're just working on making it legally sound in the meanwhile. Choose whichever you prefer, all those are guesses. The fact is that there's no ruling and that's easily verifiable.
    - euyyn 9y ago
      Luckily all court orders in Spain (like in most or all western countries) are explicitly reasoned in the order itself, so there isn't a need to ask the judge or guess. The people getting served those orders can publish the legal reasoning given.
      - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        Interestingly enough assemblea.cat's legal department has sent letters to the telcos because their site was blocked without a court order or any kind of notice. Also, some of the operations these days are not actually ordered by TSJC but by a separate judge using an old (almost forgotten) case: http://m.huffingtonpost.es/2017/09/20/el-juez-ha-ordenado-las-detenciones-y-registros-sin-que-lo-solicitara-la-guardia-civil-y-la-fiscalia-y-obviando-al-tsjc_a_23216427/ http://m.huffingtonpost.es/2017/09/20/el-juez-ha-ordenado-la... And during the first days of sites blocked no telco provided the court order they were in theory served. In fact, not all the telcos are blocking the sites. So yeah, western democracy and all that. It all smells incredibly fishy and ad-hoc.
yxhuvud 9y ago
Constitutional rules are not written in stone though. If there is political will to change them, it usually can be done (often there are speed limits for how fast this can be done). This is altogether a political issue, that the ruling party doesn't want the rules to be changed, but points to the constitution instead of taking responsibility for their stance.

pvaldes 9y ago

And this is not the end of the history. Would be naively opening the door to a full hell of pain. Try to give one candy to calm a child having a tantrum in a room full of them and see what happens when the other children realize that crying, breaking toys and banging the head on the wall equals to be rewarded with sweets. You allow somebody to break the law and jump over the constitution just because they are inconsolable otherwise. You fell in the trap. Now you must grant the same treatment to the rest. Similar referendums were demanded (and should have to be allowed in the very next day) for Euskadi, Galicia, Canary Islands, Asturias, Leon, Andalucia and only god knows what more. Two can play this game, and ten also. The idea is not Germany allowing or not a referendum for Bavaria; or UK trying to please Scottland; the idea would be: you must now be forced to grant referendums for each single state in Deutschland or UK to make us happy "or we will stop breathing (and will create a permanent state of confrontation and street disturbs)".

ukoki 9y ago
So? If they want independence who are we to deny it? If your spouse wants a divorce, if your children wish to disown you — you can't deny them just because it's an inconvenience — it is their right.
- QAPereo 9y ago
  Countries are not people, they don't respect or love each other, they oscillate between peace and war. The history of every major nation is a history of violence and conquest, not freely entered union. So, why deny independence? Because only the optics have changed, not the reality?
  - wav-part 9y ago
    > Countries are not people, they don't respect or love each other, they oscillate between peace and war. The history of every major nation is a history of violence and conquest, not freely entered union. IMO that has not been true for last 70 yrs. Point to me a war that has been People vs People. The fact of the current world is People Are Sovereign. If some >=N people domiciled in continuous region wants self-determination, thats their human right.
    - kgwgk 9y ago
      I suspect that those who want to separate Catalonia from the rest of the country wouldn’t agree with the human right of the people in the Barcelona metropolitan are to choose by themselves their own future...
      - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        They do agree though. Barcelona, Aran, whatever. You name it. Just start the political movement and it'll be respected. I think it's a fair ask.
        euyyn 9y ago
        It won't be respected by all, not even by all ERC politicians. Don't fall into the trap of thinking Catalonia is somehow free of hypocrites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMA7KdGxn0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMA7KdGxn0
        NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        Ok. By the way, can I get your crystal ball? There's this lottery thing...
        euyyn 9y ago
        Your mocking argument is that only magicians can expect people to maintain their views?
- pvaldes 9y ago
  And if my children would want to commit suicide, steal and crash cars, or enter in a sect; who am I to deny them such reasonable demands? ... their loving father or something? for Pete's sake, you, bad parent, they have rights!, and politicians that advise them well! Break the law, my minions, is funny (Specially to me, when I'll run with your money and deny to even know you... fools).
  - kristiandupont 9y ago
    So you are arguing that this is solely for Cataluñas own sake and that they don't know themselves what they are doing so Spain must protect them?
    - freshhawk 9y ago
      I mean, at this point do we need to clarify? Yes, the commenter is a fascist and yes that is basically what they believe, although it would be more about the rule of law than any kind of protection.
    - pvaldes 9y ago
      Dunno... Is the duty of the government from your nation to protect you?. (tip: the correct answer starts with Y, but not for the spurious reasons that you claim. Is because, as citizen of your country, you have some constitutional rights. No matter if you are super-smart or a frozen cabbage sending your 11yo children to a warfield). Any nation must try to protect their citizens all the time (even from themselves if were the case). Spain is not different in that sense to any other country. Sometimes is not possible, sadly.
- euyyn 9y ago
  Unlike a spouse which is one person with a single will and identity, it's not even clear how to decide who is Catalan enough to have a vote in this.
  - enriquto 9y ago
    > it's not even clear how to decide who is Catalan enough to have a vote in this. All residents in Catalonia have the right to vote in this referendum, regardless of their origin. So your comment is basically empty.
    - euyyn 9y ago
      The fact that it is how this referendum was designed doesn't mean it's fair. E.g. why would a foreigner that's been living in Catalonia for a few weeks, and plans to move away within a month to never return, have more of a say than a Catalan that spent 40 years there but had to move abroad two months ago in search of a job?
      - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        That's not how it works. You might want to read about it before having an opinion on a straw man. For the record: Spaniards living in Catalonia for at least 6 months can vote. Foreigners can't, like in General or Regional elections.
        euyyn 9y ago
        I was basing it on what the parent commenter said. I can't really tell if he's in the wrong or you are because, as you said, I haven't looked it up myself. Even with your version my fairness argument stands. How is it fair that a Catalan expat isn't allowed to vote, and an Andalusian that might be there just for a few months is? Expats are certainly allowed to vote in General elections.
        NetStrikeForce 9y ago
- pvaldes 9y ago
  This analogy is repeated again and again but is a bad example. A divorce is not "a right", is an agreement regulated by law between two previously married people to put a legal end to the relationship. The true fact is that I can't divorce from my wife without her permit and she could not divorce from me without me agreeing to sign the divorce papers. Does not match the case of one part splitting unilaterally. A better term for this case would be marital abandonment, and a even better term would be family abuse. There is not such thing like a "right to desert your family keeping the house for yourself only".
  - oh_sigh 9y ago
    Historically, has the federal government pumped more resources into Catalonia than it extracted from it, or the other way around?
    - plafl 9y ago
      Maybe it's not zero-sum
      - oh_sigh 9y ago
        Sure, it probably is. But if that is the case, the answer is even more straight forward: Separation is okay.
    - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
      There's no federal government, it's not a federation. Historically the central government has extracted money and resources from Catalonia. Catalonia was one of the first regions in Spain to develop its industry and definitely the strongest on that: https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolución_industrial_en_España https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolución_industrial_en_Esp... These days it is widely accepted that the Catalan people send 16 billion per year to Spain that are never returned. That wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't because our infrastructures are underfunded and only around 35% of the budgeted investments were actually executed: http://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/estado-ejecucion-infraestructuras-catalunya-2016_162615_102.html http://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/estado-ejecucion-infra... But this is not just an economic grievance. The issue is way more complex and includes (but not restricted to) language, cultural and respect issues. Edit: This comment is now at 0. Please argue instead of downvoting. You're breaking HN's rules.

literallycancer 9y ago

Changing the constitution isn't feasible? Are there any pro-separation parties in the national parliament?

jsdario 9y ago
It is completely feasible. In fact Spain was the project of many different kingdoms (or "nations" by modern standards): Basque, Aragon/Catalan, Galician and Castilian. Not only that but many modern leftist political parties advocate for self determination freedom within our constitution. So the fact that the Catalan parliament with a simple majority of separatists are claiming unilateral referendum of independence in a free country is just to gather momentum.
- kilburn 9y ago
  Come on jsdario... It is indeed possible to change the constution, but: 1) You need 3/5ths of the camera to do so. 2) There is only one significant state-wide party supporting self determination (podemos, which a very young party that entered the scene only in the last election). 3) The major parties (PP and PSOE, which would be like the republicans and democrats in the state) are both overtly against self determination. In any case, having to change the constitution amounts to having to get the support of 3/5ths of spain. This is hardly self-determination, don't you think?
  - jsdario 9y ago
    I may agree it's really hard, but the response is accurate. It is still possible. These kind of restrictions exist to defend people of tyranny. The same restrictions exists in Catalonian Parliament for things such as changing the "Estatut". It is not right for a simple majority to enforce their will over the people their opposition represent. Therefore the referendum is not legal, nor legitimate.
    - elecbit 9y ago
      Tyranny is a group not allowing another group to decide what to do. Hear yourself: "the referendum is not legal". Such a nice view of what democracy is. So willing to vote and say goodbye to this bla-bla-bla-this is not legal, that is not legal. Good bye opressors. My deceased family in the war the dicator won will be really happy if we can finally separate. Too many open wounds you have never tried to heal.

jacquesm 9y ago

Governments usually do not like to give up the money making portions of their countries and neither does the population of the rest of the country. You never see a poor part of a country seceding (well, other than Quebec maybe).

literallycancer 9y ago
Slovakia was much poorer than the Czech part of Czechoslovakia. The decision to split was made by the politicians rather than the people in a referendum though. Seems to be working out quite OK for everyone so far.
Mikeb85 9y ago
Quebec never did secede though, and they're definitely not 'poor'.
tartuffe78 9y ago
The South in the U.S. Civil War?
- jacquesm 9y ago
  The people driving that were very wealthy.
- int_19h 9y ago
  The South expected massive cotton revenues to prop its economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Cotton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Cotton
  - QAPereo 9y ago
    To be fair however, it was known how the war would proceed before the outset! In the words of General Sherman: You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it… Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail. People are not rational however, and the wealthy landowners were facing the extinction of their wealth... so they started a war.

kodablah 9y ago

> and Catalonia's government is the one at fault for all this hassle. My interpretation of GP's comment was about the draconian approach towards silencing internet activity. Is it believed the raiding of ISPs, outright blocking of websites, etc is the fault of Catalonia's government or Spain's?

kilburn 9y ago
Internet activity that promotes illegal actions is already illegal, and there are laws in spain allowing for these raids and closures. Edit: "Getting away with it" is mostly a question of "which side are you on?". Independentists and most non-government supporters think that what's going on is outrageous, whereas government supporters are totally fine with it. These laws where passed mainly to fight against piracy (think thepiratebay). Of course the excuse was that it was a tool against terrorism and pedophilia though ;)
- elecbit 9y ago
  Think out of the box. Is moral a law that forbids people speaking? Self-determination is in the human rights and Catalonia has more than 1000 years of history, culture and language. Democracy cannot be illegal, so this banning must be disobbeyed. Without disobbeying, woman and black people would not vote nowadays, so history proves it is a good way to take down immoral legal laws. EDIT: UN experts say that Spain must respect fundamental rights in Catalonia. Freedom of expression, freedom of press and power separation is at stake. http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22176&LangID=E http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?Ne... This is about democracy.
  - ktzar 9y ago
    I've heard pro-independence people twisting facts for over 20 years... Not surprised anymore. Democracy is deciding new law based on current law following people's desires... Like it or not, every day meter of Catalan soil belongs as much to a Catalan woman as to an Andalusian man... Nobody in his right mind would say that Catalonia is an oppressed region by Spain's government... Quite the opposite actually.

toyg 9y ago

> The spanish constitution ... was drafted 40 years ago by a Franchist establishment concerned with maintaining a certain degree of continuity. It's not surprising that the people most oppressed by Franco are not particularly happy with the result. Besides, the Wilson doctrine is usually more relevant for this sort of movements than whichever piece of paper is supposed to be law here or there. A population cannot be denied the right to self-determination, which includes splitting off if they really want to. It can be a stupid move (see Brexit), but people must be given the possibility to democratically discuss it and vote on it; because otherwise things will eventually go full Balkan, and you never want to go full Balkan.

euyyn 9y ago
That Constitution was voted in referendum by the whole country, and the support it got in Catalonia was even greater than in Madrid. > the people most oppressed by Franco Let's at least agree that this is subjective.
- toyg 9y ago
  People voted for a dramatic improvement in the status quo, not necessarily for a perfect document. It was drafted by 7 hand-picked representatives, 4 of which were basically franchists, and ratified by franchist institutions before being put to a popular vote. Had it been written in a more democratic way, by an assembly of people elected democratically, maybe it would have been different and more respectful of different identities; but it wasn’t, because franchist interests were still very strong.
  - euyyn 9y ago
    That is pure revisionism. > It was drafted by 7 hand-picked representatives, 4 of which were basically franchists Two out of the seven writers of the Constitution were Catalan (~1/3 of the writers for ~1/6 of the population). One of them a communist. The other one, exiled during the dictatorship for supporting Catalan nationalism. > ratified by franchist institutions before being put to a popular vote Before being put to a popular vote, it was ratified by the Congress that resulted from the first free elections in Spain in 40 years. The francoist party of Fraga only won 16/350 seats in that Congress; comparable to the 11 seats obtained by the Catalan party of Pujol. Half the seats had been won by centrist voters, and the other half by marxist voters. This Congress was our "assembly of people elected democratically", that could tell the writers to go back to their drafts until the result was to their liking. Those seven writers, by the way, weren't "hand-picked": they were picked by that Congress, among their members; they were all freely-elected representatives.

gotbeans 9y ago

I think he's talking about the "how" (blocking internet, policialization) not about the "why".

NetStrikeForce 9y ago

The Constitutional Court hasn't ruled out yet. Just suspended it while they deliberate. That's why most of the actions taken have been ordered by the Attorney General and not a court... Because the ref is not illegal :)

euyyn 9y ago
Why would the TSJC judge be ordering things like taking apps and websites down, if the referendum weren't illegal?
- NetStrikeForce 9y ago
  Ask them about it :-) but I could guess their logic: - They don't want people to vote. - Maybe if it's suspended you should refrain from going on with it until there's a ruling. - They know what how they want the ruling to be, so they act like it was done already. They're just working on making it legally sound in the meanwhile. Choose whichever you prefer, all those are guesses. The fact is that there's no ruling and that's easily verifiable.
  - euyyn 9y ago
    Luckily all court orders in Spain (like in most or all western countries) are explicitly reasoned in the order itself, so there isn't a need to ask the judge or guess. The people getting served those orders can publish the legal reasoning given.
    - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
      Interestingly enough assemblea.cat's legal department has sent letters to the telcos because their site was blocked without a court order or any kind of notice. Also, some of the operations these days are not actually ordered by TSJC but by a separate judge using an old (almost forgotten) case: http://m.huffingtonpost.es/2017/09/20/el-juez-ha-ordenado-las-detenciones-y-registros-sin-que-lo-solicitara-la-guardia-civil-y-la-fiscalia-y-obviando-al-tsjc_a_23216427/ http://m.huffingtonpost.es/2017/09/20/el-juez-ha-ordenado-la... And during the first days of sites blocked no telco provided the court order they were in theory served. In fact, not all the telcos are blocking the sites. So yeah, western democracy and all that. It all smells incredibly fishy and ad-hoc.

yxhuvud 9y ago

Constitutional rules are not written in stone though. If there is political will to change them, it usually can be done (often there are speed limits for how fast this can be done). This is altogether a political issue, that the ruling party doesn't want the rules to be changed, but points to the constitution instead of taking responsibility for their stance.