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U.S. To Collect Social Media Data on All Immigrants Entering Country
- kbart 9y agoPrevious discussion few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15337961 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15337961
- saimiam 9y agoThe best suggestion I found in this other thread was for every country to follow strict reciprocity with American visitors to their country. I'd love to see Larry Page and Mark Zuckerberg's social media profiles get splashed on some national newspaper's front page because someone sneaked in a camera phone into the review room.
- brentm 9y agoIt's hard to see how this will do anything besides generate a ton of false positives.
- kbart 9y agoCall me a cynic, but I doubt anyone really cares. What this really will be useful is as a database of people of selected race, origin and views to help appear for certain agencies to be working and generate headlines like: "50 suspected terrorists were deported", "terrorists bombing plot stopped" (of course, dummy bomb was provided by the same secret service) to justify even more mass surveillance in near future.
- joering2 9y agoI would like to upvote you, but I am genuinely afraid at some point HN is requested to share users' data, and someone at US GOV will ask me why did I sympathize with your message. Am I the only one this paranoid??
- saimiam 9y agoOr null results. What's to stop anyone from creating a secret profile and using a VPN (to avoid linking the terrorist persona's IP address with their main persona's IP address) just to talk to fellow terrorists? Terrorists could even force every recruit to use a common, shared profile or just avoid popular social media altogether when needing to discuss terrorist acts.
- brentm 9y agoI agree with you. Actual bad actors are not going to attempt to enter the US with sympathetic ISIS (etc) posts on their public Facebook page. What will happen though is many immigrants will end up having entry denied based on an immigration officers interpretation of a post they made on Twitter 3 years ago.
- matt4077 9y agoYeah, and if ISIS were running an ISO 9001 certified terror plot, that's exactly how they'd do it. But in the real world, a terrorist doesn't just spawn at the other end of de_dust. They know others in these social circles long before they're radicalised. The current crop of terrorists also happens to be a few landings short of a pilot's license, so to speak: the "Four Lions factor" (named for the movie) refers to the hypothesis that the aggressors' incompetence has been a major factor foiling their plans. How are they going to use a VPN if they frequently blow themselves up because they get confused by time zones? Not that I consider this policy good in any possible way. It's one more example of that country softly proclaiming "all men are created equal / with unalienable rights", then turning around and making visitors feel like Somalian hostages. But if I were tasked with unearthing terrorist networks, I'd definitely get entirely to excited at the prospect of getting access to the Facebook graph.
- brentm 9y agoThere are threats in the world but picking the needle out of the haystack is very difficult and my biggest concern is how data is interpreted. If you were attempting to enter the US, migrating from Turkey and I determined that 3 people within your social graph, one direct connection 2 secondary are known terrorist does that mean you are a terrorist based on no other information? It's really hard without direct evidence and we're playing with peoples lives. The vast majority of people are no threat and will be productive members of society. I am afraid the guilt until proven innocent mindset in regards to immigrants is increasing in parts of the US. I wish everyone would settle down and relax for a minute but it seems like thing will only continue to increase as we begin to enter a new election year and then start what will be a very heated Presidential campaign.
- CamelCaseName 9y agoNot to suggest that this is okay to do to immigrants, (legal ones at that!) but the next step is clear. If this works well and remains unopposed, the average citizen will be targeted next.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- aaron-lebo 9y agoThe average citizen already is targeted. People have been voluntarily and involuntarily sharing their personal details, daily habits, purchases, and browsing habits for years. It's probably safe to say that a lot of government agencies and companies know more about you than you do yourself (or at least they have that data). This move will be heavily criticized (as it should), but there's a false sense of security out there. Outfits like Palantir exist, Facebook and others have never been shy about tracking people without permission, and through public check ins people basically broadcast their physical location. In another thread yesterday someone was saying that they were a former FB employee and FB regularly purchased customer histories from Amazon and tied that to their own internal databases. That sounds very realistic. It's always strange how upset the tech community gets about actions like this when most of the companies people work for are doing it, and that information is getting sent to the government through things like national security letters, anyway.
- Chris2048 9y agoA slippery slope, you say?
- coldtea 9y agoSome real life slopes are actually slippery, and some metaphorical slopes are legitimately so as well. Unless you have some reason to suspect the events at the end of the slope are too farfetched to actually happen, which I don't see any, this is not a "slippery slope fallacy", but a run of the mill prediction about an Overton window opening.
- Sorreah 9y agoDid anyone imagine just how bad things would be on the citizen surveillance front 20 years ago? I'm curious.
- mad_tortoise 9y agoGuess I'm never moving to the US then.
- SerLava 9y agoSomething to realize here: If you're between 10 and 60 years old, "I don't use social media" will likely not really be an answer at the border. Even a barely-used account will not really be an answer. They're going to be able to say you're probably just hiding your real account. That could factor into denying you entry into a country. If this becomes common with many countries, it could become de facto illegal to keep social media out of your daily habits.
- timthelion 9y agoI just finished reading the book The Circle[1] by (Dave Eggers) with my wife, which is about just that, making it illegal not to use social media. Though some of the characters were less intelligent than I am, and thus seemed unbelievable to me (a problem I have with real people too), I recommend the book. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Circle_(Eggers_novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Circle_(Eggers_novel)
- arvinsim 9y agoDon't watch the movie. I read halfway through the book when the movie came out. I excitedly watched it in film form. But I only ended up disappointed. It turned me off not just from the film but from the book itself.
- hmhrex 9y agoDidn't realize there was a book. I'll remember to steer clear. The book was fantastic. I remember after reading that it felt a little far-fetched, but enjoyable. That was over a year ago, and I'm finding it to be more and more accurate.
- timthelion 9y agoYou mean that you didn't realize there was a film don't you...
- _jal 9y ago
- musha68k 9y agoAs much as I’ve always loved to come to the US and as fascinating as some US conferences are (e.g. StrangeLoop might be my personal fav) – no international attendee or speaker can be expected to put up with this ever expanding amount of bullshit anymore. If the science community or “our industry” really want to encourage and unlock the magic of diversity we need new venues for a whole lot of conferences either in Canada or the EU.
- justaman 9y agoWell if you are not attempting to stay here then (if I understand this correctly) you will not need to release your social media information.
- s0ss 9y agoErm, did you read the article? Visiting the country != immigration.
- paradite 9y agoIt's also implemented for visitors, in fact earlier than this. http://fortune.com/2017/06/01/u-s-border-social-media/ http://fortune.com/2017/06/01/u-s-border-social-media/
- txutxu 9y agoSo this means they are not collecting Social Media Data on All Social Media Users? I was wrong then. I should start using social media as I'm not U.S. emigrant.</sarcasm>
- yardie 9y agoIf they want to know what's in my social media feed they can just ask. 70% of it is Happy Birthday well wishes and the rest is making fun of our bonehead in chief. I expect FB/Twitter will have a sudden growth surge of "new" users as folks make a SFW and NSFW profile. A lot of my military and government employee friends are creating twin personas, or just dropping social media completely.
- belorn 9y agoImmigration visa is for those that seek permanent residence, while visitor visas are nonimmigrant visas? Each time I see this news, the distiction isn't made clear if this is intended to be for everyone visiting the country, or part of the process when a person is seeking permanent residence. cr1895: Thanks!
- mosselman 9y agoSo you find it acceptable for the US government to demand access to everything I have on Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp and Telegram(?), etc just because I am going to live there? That is insane.
- mattferderer 9y agoThis is not necessarily a new problem. College students for years have been warned about employers digging through social media. This led to the rise of apps like Snapchat & more privacy controls with who you share your social data with. I've been asked by public figures & businesses how to help clear their name after being involved in several negative news stories. My advice has always been to generate as many positive news stories and website posts as you can so that your negative ones are buried & hard to find. I would imagine both of these tactics will continue to increase.
- k-mcgrady 9y agoThere's a huge difference between an employer doing it and the government doing it. You can hide your SM for a potential employer. Doing that will make the government suspicious. You may get a chance to explainer yourself to an employer. An immigration decision will be made in a black box. You can apply for another job at a company not run by idiots - choosing to immigrate somewhere else isn't as straightforward.
- fiokoden 9y agoOff topic but recently given the option of vacationing in the USA or Japan, well easy choice. Do I want to visit a frightening, privacy invading, oppressive airport, or Japan? I went to Japan. I'll do my very best to avoid travel to USA if possible. Strange that this is what USA wants. Trump has put up a wall, even if it is not yet physical.
- noinsight 9y agoDoesn’t Japan fingerprint people at immigration ? (And maybe take their picture?)
- verytrivial 9y agoMy tentative, loosely held decision to not enter the US for any reason has become surprisingly easier to justify as time goes on.
- vidarh 9y agoYes, I used to visit a lot for business, and would love to go back on holiday too, but at this rate I'm not sure I want to. So far it's mostly been that I don't really have a compelling reason to visit, and it's just been tipping the scales in favor of other vacation locations etc., but the more stuff like this, the less attractive it gets. It doesn't even need to affect me directly - it just contributes to an overall impression of not being welcome.
- brentm 9y agoThe majority of people in the US disagree with everything going on right now and we welcome everyone. We will right the ship in the next 2-3 years.
- vidarh 9y agoI hope so. I've never had anything but great experiences when visiting the US in the past, so I it'd be a shame to keep away over something like this.
- fiblye 9y agoHonestly, as an American, I wouldn't be so hopeful. People were 100% sure things would turn out differently just a year ago, and anyone who said differently was openly mocked for being delusional. Things are going to get far worse before they get better. Even then, just thinking a different president will fix anything is part of the problem.
- brentm 9y agoA toxic culture starts from the top. DJT's seeming enjoyment of the driving of division between parties (and even within his own) is part of the problem. He is not the only problem and removing him isn't a cure but a hopeful/forward looking leader (from either party) doing everything he/she can to positive push the people together would be better for the country.
- znpy 9y agoWhat if I am only transiting the country ?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- kbart 9y agoThen you are not immigrant.
- ibejoeb 9y agoI suspect that if you are not a citizen of one of the countries in the Visa Waiver Program then you will need a C-1 transit visa, so you'd likely need to provide the information the same as if you were visiting/working/studying/etc. Visa Waver Program: https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/visit/visa-waiver-program.html https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/visit/visa-waiver-...
- colanderman 9y agoI wonder if we'll see a push to expand the definition of "social media" beyond Facebook and Twitter to include private group messaging platforms like SnapChat, Slack, and Hangouts, and forums like Reddit and HN.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- donohoe 9y agoCitizens. This rule also applies to US citizens. Let that sink in for a moment. Also, if you know/follow/connected-with an immigrant or naturalized citizen on a social platform, then YOUR data could be covered in this dragnet.
- havetocharge 9y agoThe expansion of the divide between citizen classes. Welcome to the brave new world.
- katastic 9y agoUh... isn't that the entire point of a background check? To see if people are dangerous before they get in? If I get a gun permit, should the cops not look at every public aspect of my history? Should we make it easier for people to have guns? Now the next snarky comment will say "guns aren't people." Yeah. But a background check is a background check. What happens when a terrorist gets in (surely that'll never happen again!) and we find out their social media history was full of death threats? Will everyone feel the same way? It seems like we've gotten to a point of public debate in this country where people completely live in fantasy worlds where they can lop off anything that happens in the real world that damages their arguments. Terrorism exists. Blame whoever you want but it does exist. And publicly posted information should be the #2 (after criminal record) thing to search. I mean... we WANT to catch the bad guys, right? Are we pretending that bad people don't exist?
- matt4077 9y agoSocial media accounts aren't "public history". They're probably the single most private sphere for many people. If you got to read all my private messages on Facebook, you'd know me better than my parent and my girlfriends together. And a "background check" isn't a "background check". It's a completely vague concept, from some prospective employer calling one or two references all the way to the 8-months process of obtaining a security clearance. That's really easy to see if you consider what kind of activities involve some sort of "background check": employment (see above), getting on a plane, opening a bank account, getting a loan, taking a tour of the Capitol: while each one of these is technically "voluntary", it'd be a distinction without a difference if they added this as a requirement for such activities.
- neilalexander 9y agoThis is the biggest mistake that people make. Social media is NOT a private sphere. There's nothing remotely private about posting things to a public service on the Internet over which you have no control. We need to stop treating them as such.
- 9y ago
- oedenfield 9y agoWhile I don't like any government collecting more data then they absolutely NEED - many businesses (including startups) are collecting social media data on us for the purposes of marketing their products/services and no one bats an eye (not many outside the EFF at least). For the record, I'm not a fan of data collection for either purpose.
- drderidder 9y agoSome of the comments seem a little disjointed from the details. According to the article, only information that's publicly available online is collected, and specifically for those immigrating to the US, not tourists, conference attendees, etc. There are likely a lot of reasons for many people not to want to travel to the US, but this would probably be low on the list.
- zeep 9y agoas long as they only collect information that is publicly accessible and associated with your real name (because they probably could de-anonimyse a lot of posts made under pseudonyms/nicknames...)
- LeoNatan25 9y agoLand of the free and home of the brave.
- maxerickson 9y agoWhat information does the government keep in the "immigration files" of naturalized citizens? There's a little bit of documentation that makes sense to me, something from the country of origin and a distillation of the naturalization paperwork that confirmed it was completed. But I don't see what information beyond that would be worth keeping.
- jameshart 9y agoFor any Americans thinking 'well, at least this doesn't affect me as a natural born citizen', you should be aware that one of the most common principles applied to visa and passport control activity by countries is 'reciprocity'. That is, countries look at how the US treats their citizens at the American port of entry, and turn around and apply that same standard to Americans. So the next time you turn up at the Canadian border and are asked to produce your facebook account details... this is why.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- A_No_Name_Mouse 9y agoI don't think this will fly under EU privacy law. This is so ineffective and intrusive that it will fail the test for proportionality and subsidiarity. At least, that's what I hope.
- Chris2048 9y agoFunny how 'reciprocity' doesn't seem to apply to taxes or extradition.. edit: Taxes; Even in the EU, forms will ask about American tax status, because an American citizen living abroad must still file taxes. I must provide this information, despite never having been an American Citizen. Extradition; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK%E2%80%93US_extradition_treaty_of_2003 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK%E2%80%93US_extradition_trea...
- iraphael 9y ago[citation needed]
- Overtonwindow 9y agoWhich will probably lead to a massive uptick in the number of fake, or ghost profiles on social media. Before entering the U.S., people will create fake social media profiles that are sanitized, and make them appear as God fearing, peaceful individuals. Then some company will get the bright idea of doing this for them, resulting in an utter waste of U.S. time, and resources.
- throwawaydbd 9y agoI find it comical that the security apparatus becomes ever more orwellian at the same time maybe 5% of the US population just ran across the Mexican border.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- neilalexander 9y agoAs controversial as it may be, is it really that surprising to anyone that governments want this sort of information on tap about anyone, not just immigrants? We need to stop expecting social media platforms to respect our privacy. They don't. They won't. What you post on Facebook and Twitter is as good as public domain. You really shouldn't be surprised to find something that you had posted in either a government file or a newspaper headline.
- js8 9y agoI downvoted you. Social media are a new category. It's not like writing to the newspapers, yet it's not like telling somebody in private. And society will still have to figure out where to draw the line. Is searching your social media a search? I mean, I think by U.S. laws, searching a large hall which only purpose is to meet with other people, even large number and by invitation, still requires a warrant.
- neilalexander 9y agoPosting to Facebook isn’t completely unlike writing to a newspaper. You send something to Facebook and it is syndicated to whomever. How and when it gets syndicated is down to Facebook, not you, and even if you delete it then you have no guarantee that it was actually deleted. You don’t really own that information anymore. Same goes for Twitter and Instagram etc. It’s a mistake to believe that the information you post won’t be made public in some way, whether to a government or another private company or individual. How can we declare that a social media capture, in that case, is a “search”? It isn’t really a “search” - it’s practically there for the taking.
- knz 9y agoAs a permanent resident with a pending citizenship application (who came on the visa mentioned at the end of this article), I find this incredibly alarming. I have nothing to hide, despise terrorism and the fanatics that commit it, and wish no harm on others with different social, political, or religious views. But I'm familiar enough with history to know how badly this can end. "Papers please" had consequences, especially for groups targeted for political reasons. Just last night I was browsing Wikipedia articles on various Presidential/political assassinations after watching an episode of the PBS Vietnam War documentary that is currently being aired. Earlier this week I tried to sign up for Snapchat and discovered an active account based out of Saudi Arabia that someone had set up using my email address (via an unverified email address I assume - thanks SnapChat). I can't read arabic so have no idea what was being shared on that platform from "my" account but based upon the images it looked critical of America. It's not much of a leap to imagine being accused of various things based upon your browsing history or social media, especially if actions like this (http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/15/543782396/doj-demands-files-on-anti-trump-activists-and-a-web-hosting-company-resists http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/15/543782396/...) become more common. The rational part of my brain keeps screaming "This is America, it can't happen here, especially if you have nothing to hide" but I also find it difficult to ignore the historical and current warning signs.
- watty 9y agoMaybe I'm being contrarian but how is this a big deal? I'd expect the government to be collecting all public information for its citizens and those visiting the country - why not? This isn't private info, it's publicly posted social media information, which is VERY easy to set to private if you wish. If they were collecting private info or browsing data, sure.
- dalacv 9y agoI think this is a step in the right direction for the internet. Just turn the whole thing off.
- idibidiart 9y agoThe earlier Gizmodo article states all immigrants not only those entering the country. It also mentions naturalized citizens. Can anyone in/validate? https://gizmodo.com/us-homeland-security-will-start-collecting-social-media-1818777094 https://gizmodo.com/us-homeland-security-will-start-collecti...
- rdtsc 9y agoI see a new market opening - creation of US favorable social media profiles as a service. UFSMPaaS, just rolls of the tongue, I know. Pay a company and they will populate your social accounts with "I love the USA!" type phrases and media. They do that for a year before someone tries to immigrate. Or even worse. Don't like someone, send a public social media messaged directed at them with something like "Yeah, I got your plans. Already bought the pressure cooker and ball bearings". Watch them being turned away at the border and ruining their vacation. When those in power act irrationally there will always be a new opportunity for someone to take advantage and abuse that. Also I am not sure if it is good that I never signed up for Facebook and Twitter or bad because now I'll be flagged - "Got nothing on this weirdo, only some computer programming nonsense. Probably good to keep an eye on him".
- shubb 9y agoDon't be too positive though - if the TSA think you really love the USA then you might want to move there. You need to write a bot that tweets 'I love the USA but wouldn't want to live there' every day.
- lucozade 9y ago> 'I love the USA but wouldn't want to live there' I have a work colleague who has a green card but lives in the UK. He gets questioned on it every time he goes through US customs. Essentially, the very idea that someone would choose not to live in the US is considered suspicious.
- pedrosorio 9y ago> I have a work colleague who has a green card but lives in the UK. He gets questioned on it every time he goes through US customs. > Essentially, the very idea that someone would choose not to live in the US is considered suspicious. This is misinformation. Green card is the colloquial name for the "Permanent Resident Card". As the name implies, you're supposed to live in the US if you hold this card. Your colleague may be flying under the radar but he's probably violating the conditions required to maintain a green card and might lose it in the future: https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-green-card-granted/maintaining-permanent-residence https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-green-card-granted/ma... "You may also lose your permanent resident status by intentionally abandoning it. You may be found to have abandoned your status if you: Move to another country, intending to live there permanently. Remain outside of the United States for an extended period of time, unless you intended this to be a temporary absence. (...)"
- ibejoeb 9y agoI can wait to "declare" my "Hacker News" account at a border. Surely there will be no misunderstanding. All of that aside, there's nothing particularly surprising or even notable. PRISM has been operational for, what, 10 years? This is pretty tame in comparison. This is a more of a disclosure test. They already know what you do on social media. Now you just have to tell them explicitly, because if you leave something out, you'll be denied entry.
- josephv 9y agoI'm with Schneier on this, it's hard to get worked up about the gov't scraping information an individual publishes publicly. The larger trend is obviously still disturbing.
- unethical_ban 9y agoStuff I put on Facebook isn't public. It's shared among friends. It's like what I talk about with friends at a bar, or at my house - and if the government asked for recordings of my chit-chat with friends (or even asked whether I recorded conversations) I would be horribly bothered. So I am horribly bothered. I will be writing Congressmen and donating to the EFF this weekend.
- nnq 9y agoThis whole set of measures will probably lead to more and more successful new businesses being started outside USA. ...and most non-American entrepreneurs will breathe relieved, loosing some of the fear that the SV brain-magnet can siphon their talent away at any moment. So yey for everyone (except the USA).
- gorbachev 9y agoHow is this going to fly with the various European data privacy laws? The European Union has previously objected strongly, and even hinted at punitive counter actions, to similar data gathering initiatives by the US Government.
- scrumper 9y ago>“social media handles, aliases, associated identifiable information and search results,” _How_ are they going to collect that, particularly search results?
- tootie 9y agoTime for people to start making fake social media accounts. Just setup a LinkedIn that says you're software architect and a lawyer, then show it to border guards.
- slig 9y agoTerrible advice. Lying will get you arrested.
- makecheck 9y agoAmong the many illegitimate reasons to demand online accounts, there are definitely 100%-fake profiles. I have seen this with friends: something that IS their picture and their “name” (though the scammer probably added spaces or something). Great. Just imagine, someone at the airport first asking leading questions like “is this you?”, then demanding that you log in; and since you won’t be able to, now what? Then suppose they have “evidence” of what “you” have been doing with this account. Even important digital information isn’t being secured correctly (Equifax) so this is not exactly the best time to be attaching new importance to stuff that is easier to emulate or steal. It also can’t come at a worse time from a “social media exhaustion” point of view. I haven’t used stuff like Facebook in months. I’m further from this crap than I was even last year, and the last thing I want is to have to dip back into the cesspool to appease the authorities.
- jackpot51 9y agoGood to see we are still on track for our descent into tyranny. Ahead of schedule, even!
- bogomipz 9y agoThe biggest threat of violence to US citizens comes not from immigrants but from gun violence inflicted on them by their fellow American citizens. Barely a week goes by where the US doesn't experience an act of domestic terrorism without some total nutter shoots up a mall, movie theater, school, church etc. In fact the frequency of these gun violence incidents is such that they sometimes interrupt each other's news cycles. There is even a lexicon that has been invented to describe the - "sheltering in place, "active shooter" etc. You will never hear the US media call or government call these acts of terrorism or the perpetrators of this gun violence against innocent people referred to as terrorists. It's worth noting Donald Trump the architect of this anti-immigrant hysteria opposes expanding federal background checks for gun purchases.
- Iv 9y agoJust like they did before but now somehow the new administration considers it smart to brag about it...
- epc 9y agoTo every US Citizen who replies “what's the big deal?” keep in mind most countries maintain a sort of reciprocity, whatever the US government does to their citizens to enter, they may, out of pique or their own laws, do to Americans entering their country. Given the execrable ability of the US government to keep even its own top-secret confidential information secure, I have absolutely no faith that this information will be securely maintained, nor that it will be solely used to profile visitors solely at the “border”.
- yalogin 9y agoIf the US itself does this, it gives a blank cheque for every other country to do it and in some cases it will be ok for other countries to retaliate. Other countries will go further and ask for passwords by default as well.
- radicaldreamer 9y agoAsking this of naturalized citizens is ridiculous and probably against the 4th Amendment. As a group, you can't discriminate against naturalized citizens and natural born citizens except for the job of the presidency as prescribed in the constitution. Not that it matters whether it's only people with green cards or work visas or any other category of people required to do this, but I'm hoping some precedents for data privacy at border crossings are set or overturned thanks to this ham-handed approach from the Trump administration.