4 ms·

"3years is not a long time" says the std committee. If it's in standard in 2023 we can use it at work in 2025-2027 for those of us at particularly fast compani

"3years is not a long time" says the std committee. If it's in standard in 2023 we can use it at work in 2025-2027 for those of us at particularly fast companies

pjmlp 9y ago
I only use C++ for native libraries accessed from Java/.NET, so it doesn't hurt me that much, given the average code size. But things are much nicer nowadays than on the late 90's when I had to use the OS vendor C++ compiler for each system we were targeting, while ANSI was still designing what would become C++98. Or the C compilers transitioning between some kind of K&R C support and ANSI C89.
hellofunk 9y ago
I know a lot of companies that immediately adopt the new standards in C++, sometimes as soon as the compiler supports them, even if the standards aren't official yet. For example, I was working at a company that was using C++14 features in 2013.
- zarkov99 9y ago
  Right. We now have two world class compilers, gcc and clang, which both track the standard closely and this has forced Microsoft to improve their compliance as well. It is a golden age for C++ right now.
  - harry8 9y ago
    The golden age of C++ is that java, python, ruby, clojure javascript and so on all exist so developers who have a dislike and/or perhaps low aptitude for C++ aren't in your codebase because it really isn't the only game in town. Compiler support, standardisation of things we needed in the late 80s sure. great, yeah, all good and helpful. Not having a constant standing fight to keep the worst nasty rubbish out of your codebase so you can get on with writing code that achieves something useful in a manner that's not hideous. That's a change that didn't come from within C++. C++ culture from Bjarne on down is still hideous. Arrogant, aggressive and generally nasty. Fix that and we'd really get the golden age. I stay as far away from C++ "people", committees, conferences etc. as I can. Yeah "No loss" would be the usual response and I'm sure that's true, I'm not such a genius that the loss of me matters at all. There will be plenty more, some of whom have great contributions they will make elsewhere, to think otherwise is just the usual C++ "smart people" nasty, competitive arrogance.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      C++ is pretty much the only game in town for those having those alternative languages running at all. When LLVM, GCC, JVM and CLR stop being written in C++, then we have sound alternatives. Java Metropolis or .NET Native with Rosyln are not there yet. Rust doesn't seem to be taking over systems development at any major commercial OS for the time being. Hopefully it will, if Fuchsia ever becomes a commercial product. Swift is pretty much an Apple only language and isn't fully stable yet. So until then, I rather take a polyglot approach C++ and Language X, while helping drive away the C style coding that plagues our stacks.
      - UnpossibleJim 9y ago
        This might be a sloght departure, sp forgive me, but what exactly is going on with Rust? Their user base is rabid and loyal as any as I've seen, and their evangelists spout out content at a fair pace, but it doesn't seem to be gaining a huge amount of popularity (I may be wrong, but I've seen very little demand/job postings). Has it just not hit critical mass, is there not enough general utility or is the thought of leaving a language with a C in the name just too frightening?
        pjmlp 9y ago
        The actual Rust developers are not like that, they are quite friendly and help anyone that wanders into their forums. Google is already using Rust on a few ChromeOS and Fuchsia libraries. Firefox is getting more components ported from C++ into Rust. Microsoft adopted a regexp engine, written in Rust, for Visual Studio Code. So some victories, but the language still needs to mature in a few domains, UI, IDE, DB drivers, graphical debuggers, processors, and these things take time. It took C++ almost 20 years to steal some industries from C, while others still choose C and Assembly as their daily tools. It takes years to replace tooling, and many times the sucesses are not only technical, but are heavy influenced by social and political reasoning.
        steveklabnik 9y ago
        https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/friends.html https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/friends.html is a non-exhaustive list of companies using Rust in production. Many don't explicitly hire Rust devs, but hire devs in general, as they won't just be working on Rust projects, but also on others. That's not always the case, but it's common. For example, Amazon recently posted a job listing saying that "Rust knowledge is a plus," that's because a small bit of it is in Rust, but you need to be familiar with other tech too.

"3years is not a long time" says the std committee. If it's in standard in 2023 we can use it at work in 2025-2027 for those of us at particularly fast companies

pjmlp 9y ago

I only use C++ for native libraries accessed from Java/.NET, so it doesn't hurt me that much, given the average code size. But things are much nicer nowadays than on the late 90's when I had to use the OS vendor C++ compiler for each system we were targeting, while ANSI was still designing what would become C++98. Or the C compilers transitioning between some kind of K&R C support and ANSI C89.

hellofunk 9y ago

I know a lot of companies that immediately adopt the new standards in C++, sometimes as soon as the compiler supports them, even if the standards aren't official yet. For example, I was working at a company that was using C++14 features in 2013.

zarkov99 9y ago
Right. We now have two world class compilers, gcc and clang, which both track the standard closely and this has forced Microsoft to improve their compliance as well. It is a golden age for C++ right now.
- harry8 9y ago
  The golden age of C++ is that java, python, ruby, clojure javascript and so on all exist so developers who have a dislike and/or perhaps low aptitude for C++ aren't in your codebase because it really isn't the only game in town. Compiler support, standardisation of things we needed in the late 80s sure. great, yeah, all good and helpful. Not having a constant standing fight to keep the worst nasty rubbish out of your codebase so you can get on with writing code that achieves something useful in a manner that's not hideous. That's a change that didn't come from within C++. C++ culture from Bjarne on down is still hideous. Arrogant, aggressive and generally nasty. Fix that and we'd really get the golden age. I stay as far away from C++ "people", committees, conferences etc. as I can. Yeah "No loss" would be the usual response and I'm sure that's true, I'm not such a genius that the loss of me matters at all. There will be plenty more, some of whom have great contributions they will make elsewhere, to think otherwise is just the usual C++ "smart people" nasty, competitive arrogance.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    C++ is pretty much the only game in town for those having those alternative languages running at all. When LLVM, GCC, JVM and CLR stop being written in C++, then we have sound alternatives. Java Metropolis or .NET Native with Rosyln are not there yet. Rust doesn't seem to be taking over systems development at any major commercial OS for the time being. Hopefully it will, if Fuchsia ever becomes a commercial product. Swift is pretty much an Apple only language and isn't fully stable yet. So until then, I rather take a polyglot approach C++ and Language X, while helping drive away the C style coding that plagues our stacks.
    - UnpossibleJim 9y ago
      This might be a sloght departure, sp forgive me, but what exactly is going on with Rust? Their user base is rabid and loyal as any as I've seen, and their evangelists spout out content at a fair pace, but it doesn't seem to be gaining a huge amount of popularity (I may be wrong, but I've seen very little demand/job postings). Has it just not hit critical mass, is there not enough general utility or is the thought of leaving a language with a C in the name just too frightening?
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        The actual Rust developers are not like that, they are quite friendly and help anyone that wanders into their forums. Google is already using Rust on a few ChromeOS and Fuchsia libraries. Firefox is getting more components ported from C++ into Rust. Microsoft adopted a regexp engine, written in Rust, for Visual Studio Code. So some victories, but the language still needs to mature in a few domains, UI, IDE, DB drivers, graphical debuggers, processors, and these things take time. It took C++ almost 20 years to steal some industries from C, while others still choose C and Assembly as their daily tools. It takes years to replace tooling, and many times the sucesses are not only technical, but are heavy influenced by social and political reasoning.
      - steveklabnik 9y ago
        https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/friends.html https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/friends.html is a non-exhaustive list of companies using Rust in production. Many don't explicitly hire Rust devs, but hire devs in general, as they won't just be working on Rust projects, but also on others. That's not always the case, but it's common. For example, Amazon recently posted a job listing saying that "Rust knowledge is a plus," that's because a small bit of it is in Rust, but you need to be familiar with other tech too.