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HN generally really supports Apple products and the company, but cynical old me can't possibly believe some monstrously powerful for-profit corporation could ev

HN generally really supports Apple products and the company, but cynical old me can't possibly believe some monstrously powerful for-profit corporation could ever make customer freedoms a primary goal. My gut tells me Apple are taking this stance because they feel it affects their bottom line somehow (perhaps they want to project an image of being customer friendly?) I don't want to be unfair towards Apple, I think large corporations inherently lack empathy for customers and primarily focus on their bottom lines as a consequence of their ownership and structure. It's just very concerning to see people become emotionally attached to corporations or products partly because of stances like these, when I'm fairly certain those stances aren't completely sincere.

nextlevelwizard 9y ago
>My gut tells me Apple are taking this stance because they feel it affects their bottom line You are absolutely correct, but maybe not in a way you think you are. I currently whole heartedly believe that while Apple is obviously trying to maximize their profits, they are also in for the long game. They want the company to keep making money for decades to come. This means listening to concerns of your consumers is key. Some times I get this feeling that Samsung and other smart phone vendors are always trying to one-up their competition. While Apple is trying to just improve on their own shit. Which sometimes means that their product is strictly worse in some aspects, compared to their competition. Taking security seriously, which Apple has done in past years and now taking privacy seriously puts them in a very good position for the long term. They could have easily started to track their users and sell the data to get some instant boost in profits, but that would not have been good for business in long term.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
> My gut tells me Apple are taking this stance because they feel it directly affects their bottom line. That's a feature not a bug! This means that Apple thinks a core of well-paying customers view privacy as very important and are willing to pay for it.
- confounded 9y ago
  It has the side effect of making privacy something that's just for rich people of course. You could argue that if Apple really cared about privacy, they'd use their consider lobbying clout to propose some legislation to protect all Americans. Or even open source / publish more of their work to make it more available.
  - bigbugbag 9y ago
    If they cared about privacy they would not attempt to protect all Americans but everybody period. (Most Apple clients are not Americans). IMHO had apple cared for privacy and/or wanted things to change they would move their business in a different country where law protects privacy. Way more efficient than lobbying.
KGIII 9y ago
I think that, here at least, it is well understood that there is a financial motive, and not altruism, that motivates Apple to take this stance. Given the current state of affairs, I'll take it. We can argue the philosophy aspect with them after the war, for now they are an ally. I don't use an iPhone, but I could use a new iPad. I'll throw a few bucks at them and I think my daughter would like one of the new laptops. I'll find out what she wants and have one shipped to her. It's working as intended for Apple, but I'm willing to financially support behavior I agree with. If asked why I made the purchases, at any official site during the order process, I'll be sure to let them know my reasoning.
- natch 9y ago
  Tough crowd here. I do believe the people at Apple feel strongly it is their mission to do things in ways that are great for users, and not because it makes money, but because they want to make insanely great things that are wonderful to use. I understand the world has cynical people in it. But that doesn’t mean every person is just as cynical as you seem to think. Same with companies: I understand there are big evil companies in the world. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible that a company could be run with the principle of putting users first, and with sincere intent.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    I think their primary motive is income. The way they do that is by being good for their users, or appearing to be good for their users. If morality were their primary goal, I strongly suspect they'd be financially structured in a more honest way. From the way they've gone after unintended leakers to how they've dealt with vulnerability reports, I'm not able to believe their motives are altrustic. I'm not displeased with them, and even will buy a couple of their products to show my support. I'm just unwilling to believe, without further evidence, that their reasoning is anything more than a concern with their bottom line. They are, first and foremost, a business and their main goal is profitability. While not laudable, it is understandable. Because I agree with their stance, I'll do a little to show that I support their actions. I already own shares, so I will just buy a couple of devices.
cshenton 9y ago
It's probably not correct to say the stance is insincere. If it is purely profit motivated, then it would be quite sincere of Apple to say they care about privacy, in the same way it's sincere of them to say they care about quality. They may or may not care about the quality intrinsically, but they certainly care that it allows them to charge more for their product. So long as there's a disincentive to lie about privacy, caring about it for profit reasons is still caring about it. Since privacy is trust based, destroying that trust would destroy a large chunk of the perceived value of the products.
- tyrw 9y ago
  I generally agree with your statement, but Apple goes a step further to say they believe it is a human right. That feels a little forced from a massive corporation.
  - drunkpotato 9y ago
    I get where you're coming from; I too feel a great cynicism when it comes to corporate proclamations of values. However, I also think that balancing out ever-present greed and short-term thinking are people who sincerely believe in the values presented; people working at Apple who believe that those values will lead to greater value over the long term; people working at Apple who believe intrinsically in those values being greater than the profit motive. I think that though it's useful to a first approximation to think that a corporation always values profit uber alles, it's also helpful sometimes to step back and realize that a corporation is also in sum the actions of people who work for it. For example David Atkins has made a career of holding corporations to their own statements of values and pointing out to PR executives when 1. their actions are in conflict with their stated values and 2. when that conflict is/can lead to worse profit outcomes. After all, a corporation is not a perfect profit-maximizing entity, and can often benefit from external signals. In short, I think that though it is easy to cynically dismiss Apple's statement of values of privacy as a human right, that statement itself can have real world effects and consequences if we choose to hold them to it.
- milkytron 9y ago
  I completely agree, and given their competitors' stances on privacy, it most certainly gives them a way to differentiate themselves and provide an advantage in ways that others can't (or don't/won't). If they can provide value to customers through privacy and security in their products, that adds customer value to their products, which ultimately improves their bottom line. Privacy is privacy no matter what the motivation. Edit: We can ponder whether or not their motivations are sincere or not, but it may be a good business move in the long term as well as a genuine value for a person's privacy.
marricks 9y ago
The reason I support Apple, and can be fan boyish about them, is because they very intentional make sure their customers are not their products. The make money selling devices & subscriptions, not data. Ergo, making devices more secure makes their product more attractive to consumers if anyone of them value privacy. That seems like a good setup to me.
- bigbugbag 9y ago
  Would get jailed in solitary in a federal prison because you get better privacy there, only the guards are warden spy on you? Let's not forget that apple devices are akin to a prison due to the their strict vendor lock-in. Apple not directly selling your data to advertisers does not mean that they do not collect it or use it in other ways (including indirect selling).
  - marricks 9y ago
    The explicitly use differential privacy to allow collecting of anonymized large samples of data[1]. They're pretty serious about privacy. Also for having a walled garden of an app store and locked down devices, yep, that's a polarizing aspect to them, no doubt. [1] https://www.wired.com/2016/06/apples-differential-privacy-collecting-data/ https://www.wired.com/2016/06/apples-differential-privacy-co...
Nerada 9y ago
I imagine it's to target the corporate market. My company's mail app doesn't support Android devices at all because of IT Security's concerns, and we've recently begun switching user's firm-provided Samsungs and Blackberrys over to iPhones.
aeleos 9y ago
I mean to be fair what Apple is doing is a great marketing move. What they are doing is not all that complicated they saw a market where no one else was (others have tried, but didn't do it right or or make it user friendly enough). They saw that they could fill a the big void where privacy was too difficult for the average consumer to achieve and provide that. Whether or not you think that a big company could ever care about privacy doesn't really matter, because their actions can easily be attributed to what monstrously powerful for-profit corporations do. They saw an area of the market where they could go either way (sell consumers data or protect it) and saw that no one was protecting users data (easily) and everyone was selling it. And they capitalized on it, and turned it into something they could market. Yes it is hard to trust apple but its like trusting google to keep on selling your data. They are going to keep doing it because they have a market for it and they make a lot of money. Apple is marketing it as a feature and are selling it, and I doubt they will try to take it away.
dangero 9y ago
The thing is, Apple as a corporation is an outlier in a lot of ways and we saw that a big part of the Jobs philosophy when he returned to the company was to change it from the inside out. It's important to remember that this message Apple is putting out, they're telling all their employees the same story. That doesn't mean it's true or anything less than a position of convenience, but it does mean they are encouraging their staff to think it's true and make decisions based on that. If consumers vote with their wallets for privacy, it's in Apple's best interest to continue on this path, to express it to the employees of the company, and we all win. Of course, emotions attached to a corporation are a branding strategy, but if it causes things to happen like Apple putting out the first line of phones not bogged down with carrier bloatware, then I'll take it.
- ianai 9y ago
  Apple definitely takes privacy seriously. This is the company that practically invented creating buzz around a product through secrecy. They’ve gone to great lengths to keep their on goings secret aka private.
  - bigbugbag 9y ago
    Apple definitely did not take user privacy seriously until recently and even then it only seem to be a PR/marketing move to sell a good image of the company and of course sell more device. Whatever they say, they're still under patriot act.
deleted 9y ago
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mythz 9y ago
Ultimately I believe Tim Cook is a good human who really does want what he says and leave the world in a better place than what they found it. He routinely does things he thinks is the right thing to do, which is often contra to what Wall Street wants and that of a purely for-profit enterprise, e.g: > He said that there are many things Apple does because they are right and just, and that a return on investment (ROI) was not the primary consideration on such issues. > "When we work on making our devices accessible by the blind," he said, "I don't consider the bloody ROI." He said that the same thing about environmental issues, worker safety, and other areas where Apple is a leader. > "If you want me to do things only for ROI reasons, you should get out of this stock." - https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/03/at-apple-shareholders-meeting-tim-cook-tells-off-climate-change-deniers/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/03/at-apple-shareholder... Under Cook Apple's approach to privacy has never wavered, they've always been staunchly pro-privacy even when it was unpopular to do so during the FBI terrorist attack. So I don't think their stance on privacy is a marketing strategy, IMO he really believes we all have a fundamental right to privacy and that they're doing everything in their powers to ensure their customers get it.
- cinquemb 9y ago
  Yeah… seems like we've gone from bunker mode to full court press in 2 years… lol I don't think this will be enough to drum up demand… just ask apple's suppliers… "Apple had asked the F.B.I. to issue its application for the tool under seal. But the government made it public, prompting Mr. Cook to go into bunker mode to draft a response, according to people privy to the discussions, who spoke on condition of anonymity."[0][1] Besides, why pay so much for the latest and greatest surveillance tech when its so cheap now for threat actors to exploit what's already out there? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11133909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11133909 [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/technology/how-tim-cook-became-a-bulwark-for-digital-privacy.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/technology/how-tim-cook-be...
  - mythz 9y ago
    So the FBI waited for the perfect case to make a public spectacle in order to manipulate public opinion and set a precedent in order to increase their powers and I'm supposed to believe an anonymous source "privy to the discussions" who can read Cook's mind doing backflips on his stance to privacy? Where has Cook's stance ever been anything but pro-privacy?
r00fus 9y ago
The profit-seeking motive is honest business. What's suspect is a rent-seeking motive. Rent-seeking results in a race to the bottom, while profit-seeking can sometimes result in a race to the top. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking
deleted 9y ago
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aeriklawson 9y ago
I don't think cynicism is necessary. Apple is in a better position than Google to do this because of their business model. Many of Google's services, for example, are free to use - that comes at a cost to the consumer because they have to make money off those products somehow; enter advertising and selling your data to 3rd parties. The same applies to Facebook and other social media companies. Apple sells premium hardware devices for a premium price - that is their bread and butter and where they make most of their money. What do they really have to lose (financially) by protecting your privacy? They don't have a search engine or advertising driven business model that requires sharing your data with other companies. Even if Apple didn't really give a shit they earn free goodwill. I also agree with others that Tim Cook and other Apple execs seem to genuinely care about this issue as well.

nextlevelwizard 9y ago

>My gut tells me Apple are taking this stance because they feel it affects their bottom line You are absolutely correct, but maybe not in a way you think you are. I currently whole heartedly believe that while Apple is obviously trying to maximize their profits, they are also in for the long game. They want the company to keep making money for decades to come. This means listening to concerns of your consumers is key. Some times I get this feeling that Samsung and other smart phone vendors are always trying to one-up their competition. While Apple is trying to just improve on their own shit. Which sometimes means that their product is strictly worse in some aspects, compared to their competition. Taking security seriously, which Apple has done in past years and now taking privacy seriously puts them in a very good position for the long term. They could have easily started to track their users and sell the data to get some instant boost in profits, but that would not have been good for business in long term.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago

> My gut tells me Apple are taking this stance because they feel it directly affects their bottom line. That's a feature not a bug! This means that Apple thinks a core of well-paying customers view privacy as very important and are willing to pay for it.

confounded 9y ago
It has the side effect of making privacy something that's just for rich people of course. You could argue that if Apple really cared about privacy, they'd use their consider lobbying clout to propose some legislation to protect all Americans. Or even open source / publish more of their work to make it more available.
- bigbugbag 9y ago
  If they cared about privacy they would not attempt to protect all Americans but everybody period. (Most Apple clients are not Americans). IMHO had apple cared for privacy and/or wanted things to change they would move their business in a different country where law protects privacy. Way more efficient than lobbying.

KGIII 9y ago

I think that, here at least, it is well understood that there is a financial motive, and not altruism, that motivates Apple to take this stance. Given the current state of affairs, I'll take it. We can argue the philosophy aspect with them after the war, for now they are an ally. I don't use an iPhone, but I could use a new iPad. I'll throw a few bucks at them and I think my daughter would like one of the new laptops. I'll find out what she wants and have one shipped to her. It's working as intended for Apple, but I'm willing to financially support behavior I agree with. If asked why I made the purchases, at any official site during the order process, I'll be sure to let them know my reasoning.

natch 9y ago
Tough crowd here. I do believe the people at Apple feel strongly it is their mission to do things in ways that are great for users, and not because it makes money, but because they want to make insanely great things that are wonderful to use. I understand the world has cynical people in it. But that doesn’t mean every person is just as cynical as you seem to think. Same with companies: I understand there are big evil companies in the world. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible that a company could be run with the principle of putting users first, and with sincere intent.
- KGIII 9y ago
  I think their primary motive is income. The way they do that is by being good for their users, or appearing to be good for their users. If morality were their primary goal, I strongly suspect they'd be financially structured in a more honest way. From the way they've gone after unintended leakers to how they've dealt with vulnerability reports, I'm not able to believe their motives are altrustic. I'm not displeased with them, and even will buy a couple of their products to show my support. I'm just unwilling to believe, without further evidence, that their reasoning is anything more than a concern with their bottom line. They are, first and foremost, a business and their main goal is profitability. While not laudable, it is understandable. Because I agree with their stance, I'll do a little to show that I support their actions. I already own shares, so I will just buy a couple of devices.

cshenton 9y ago

It's probably not correct to say the stance is insincere. If it is purely profit motivated, then it would be quite sincere of Apple to say they care about privacy, in the same way it's sincere of them to say they care about quality. They may or may not care about the quality intrinsically, but they certainly care that it allows them to charge more for their product. So long as there's a disincentive to lie about privacy, caring about it for profit reasons is still caring about it. Since privacy is trust based, destroying that trust would destroy a large chunk of the perceived value of the products.

tyrw 9y ago
I generally agree with your statement, but Apple goes a step further to say they believe it is a human right. That feels a little forced from a massive corporation.
- drunkpotato 9y ago
  I get where you're coming from; I too feel a great cynicism when it comes to corporate proclamations of values. However, I also think that balancing out ever-present greed and short-term thinking are people who sincerely believe in the values presented; people working at Apple who believe that those values will lead to greater value over the long term; people working at Apple who believe intrinsically in those values being greater than the profit motive. I think that though it's useful to a first approximation to think that a corporation always values profit uber alles, it's also helpful sometimes to step back and realize that a corporation is also in sum the actions of people who work for it. For example David Atkins has made a career of holding corporations to their own statements of values and pointing out to PR executives when 1. their actions are in conflict with their stated values and 2. when that conflict is/can lead to worse profit outcomes. After all, a corporation is not a perfect profit-maximizing entity, and can often benefit from external signals. In short, I think that though it is easy to cynically dismiss Apple's statement of values of privacy as a human right, that statement itself can have real world effects and consequences if we choose to hold them to it.
milkytron 9y ago
I completely agree, and given their competitors' stances on privacy, it most certainly gives them a way to differentiate themselves and provide an advantage in ways that others can't (or don't/won't). If they can provide value to customers through privacy and security in their products, that adds customer value to their products, which ultimately improves their bottom line. Privacy is privacy no matter what the motivation. Edit: We can ponder whether or not their motivations are sincere or not, but it may be a good business move in the long term as well as a genuine value for a person's privacy.

marricks 9y ago

The reason I support Apple, and can be fan boyish about them, is because they very intentional make sure their customers are not their products. The make money selling devices & subscriptions, not data. Ergo, making devices more secure makes their product more attractive to consumers if anyone of them value privacy. That seems like a good setup to me.

bigbugbag 9y ago
Would get jailed in solitary in a federal prison because you get better privacy there, only the guards are warden spy on you? Let's not forget that apple devices are akin to a prison due to the their strict vendor lock-in. Apple not directly selling your data to advertisers does not mean that they do not collect it or use it in other ways (including indirect selling).
- marricks 9y ago
  The explicitly use differential privacy to allow collecting of anonymized large samples of data[1]. They're pretty serious about privacy. Also for having a walled garden of an app store and locked down devices, yep, that's a polarizing aspect to them, no doubt. [1] https://www.wired.com/2016/06/apples-differential-privacy-collecting-data/ https://www.wired.com/2016/06/apples-differential-privacy-co...

Nerada 9y ago

I imagine it's to target the corporate market. My company's mail app doesn't support Android devices at all because of IT Security's concerns, and we've recently begun switching user's firm-provided Samsungs and Blackberrys over to iPhones.

aeleos 9y ago

I mean to be fair what Apple is doing is a great marketing move. What they are doing is not all that complicated they saw a market where no one else was (others have tried, but didn't do it right or or make it user friendly enough). They saw that they could fill a the big void where privacy was too difficult for the average consumer to achieve and provide that. Whether or not you think that a big company could ever care about privacy doesn't really matter, because their actions can easily be attributed to what monstrously powerful for-profit corporations do. They saw an area of the market where they could go either way (sell consumers data or protect it) and saw that no one was protecting users data (easily) and everyone was selling it. And they capitalized on it, and turned it into something they could market. Yes it is hard to trust apple but its like trusting google to keep on selling your data. They are going to keep doing it because they have a market for it and they make a lot of money. Apple is marketing it as a feature and are selling it, and I doubt they will try to take it away.

dangero 9y ago

The thing is, Apple as a corporation is an outlier in a lot of ways and we saw that a big part of the Jobs philosophy when he returned to the company was to change it from the inside out. It's important to remember that this message Apple is putting out, they're telling all their employees the same story. That doesn't mean it's true or anything less than a position of convenience, but it does mean they are encouraging their staff to think it's true and make decisions based on that. If consumers vote with their wallets for privacy, it's in Apple's best interest to continue on this path, to express it to the employees of the company, and we all win. Of course, emotions attached to a corporation are a branding strategy, but if it causes things to happen like Apple putting out the first line of phones not bogged down with carrier bloatware, then I'll take it.

ianai 9y ago
Apple definitely takes privacy seriously. This is the company that practically invented creating buzz around a product through secrecy. They’ve gone to great lengths to keep their on goings secret aka private.
- bigbugbag 9y ago
  Apple definitely did not take user privacy seriously until recently and even then it only seem to be a PR/marketing move to sell a good image of the company and of course sell more device. Whatever they say, they're still under patriot act.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

mythz 9y ago

Ultimately I believe Tim Cook is a good human who really does want what he says and leave the world in a better place than what they found it. He routinely does things he thinks is the right thing to do, which is often contra to what Wall Street wants and that of a purely for-profit enterprise, e.g: > He said that there are many things Apple does because they are right and just, and that a return on investment (ROI) was not the primary consideration on such issues. > "When we work on making our devices accessible by the blind," he said, "I don't consider the bloody ROI." He said that the same thing about environmental issues, worker safety, and other areas where Apple is a leader. > "If you want me to do things only for ROI reasons, you should get out of this stock." - https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/03/at-apple-shareholders-meeting-tim-cook-tells-off-climate-change-deniers/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/03/at-apple-shareholder... Under Cook Apple's approach to privacy has never wavered, they've always been staunchly pro-privacy even when it was unpopular to do so during the FBI terrorist attack. So I don't think their stance on privacy is a marketing strategy, IMO he really believes we all have a fundamental right to privacy and that they're doing everything in their powers to ensure their customers get it.

cinquemb 9y ago
Yeah… seems like we've gone from bunker mode to full court press in 2 years… lol I don't think this will be enough to drum up demand… just ask apple's suppliers… "Apple had asked the F.B.I. to issue its application for the tool under seal. But the government made it public, prompting Mr. Cook to go into bunker mode to draft a response, according to people privy to the discussions, who spoke on condition of anonymity."[0][1] Besides, why pay so much for the latest and greatest surveillance tech when its so cheap now for threat actors to exploit what's already out there? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11133909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11133909 [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/technology/how-tim-cook-became-a-bulwark-for-digital-privacy.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/technology/how-tim-cook-be...
- mythz 9y ago
  So the FBI waited for the perfect case to make a public spectacle in order to manipulate public opinion and set a precedent in order to increase their powers and I'm supposed to believe an anonymous source "privy to the discussions" who can read Cook's mind doing backflips on his stance to privacy? Where has Cook's stance ever been anything but pro-privacy?

r00fus 9y ago

The profit-seeking motive is honest business. What's suspect is a rent-seeking motive. Rent-seeking results in a race to the bottom, while profit-seeking can sometimes result in a race to the top. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking

deleted 9y ago

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aeriklawson 9y ago

I don't think cynicism is necessary. Apple is in a better position than Google to do this because of their business model. Many of Google's services, for example, are free to use - that comes at a cost to the consumer because they have to make money off those products somehow; enter advertising and selling your data to 3rd parties. The same applies to Facebook and other social media companies. Apple sells premium hardware devices for a premium price - that is their bread and butter and where they make most of their money. What do they really have to lose (financially) by protecting your privacy? They don't have a search engine or advertising driven business model that requires sharing your data with other companies. Even if Apple didn't really give a shit they earn free goodwill. I also agree with others that Tim Cook and other Apple execs seem to genuinely care about this issue as well.