7 ms·

Why Germany’s happy, successful: Its values are the opposite of Silicon Valley’s

48 points by benevol 9y ago

justboxing 9y ago
> Sure, they favor high-quality consumer goods—but they deliberate on what to buy for years, and expect their possessions to last for decades. This. The US was similar in this aspect until major retail manufacturers started outsourcing everything to China. I remember reading elsewhere on HN a while back, how Sears Washing Machines, Refridgerators and other house hold appliances would last for decades, then, somewhere along the 70s or 80s, they (and several other major home appliance retailers) switched to manufacturing in China on the cheap and did away with repairing stuff. That just forces you to toss your old appliance and buy a new one every 7 to 10 years when they fall apart.
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  Partly that, it's partly by design. A) They want them to fail so people buy more. B) Consumers in North America like change. They want new stuff.
- Fnoord 9y ago
  Thing is, if you buy a new washing machine and replace it within 10 years you end up spending money on a new, cheaper one which is more environment-friendly than the most environment-friendly ones from 10 years ago. Whereas your Miele would've lasted 20 years easily but would've been out of date on the environmental department. Its a catch-22. The same with something like smartphones (I take it readers are thinking about smartphones when they read this article? Very 'ungerman' product IMO). If you buy a new one you end up downcycling the plastic and recycling some of the elements. Yes, you gotta pay again for a phone. But its also presumably better. It wasn't possible to upgrade the old phone because phones are such small, embedded technology (with bad software support being a minor part of the problem) that they've become waste products. We, as tech community, need to solve this problem in order to reduce environmental waste. How? Modular devices. Laptops used to be modular. Now they've gone the smartphone route. Why? Less weight/size, and less durability and the inability to fix it yourself yields more profit. We can stop this by voting with our wallet.
- jlgray 9y ago
  Some of that has a "you get what you pay for" component. My parents have a Frigidaire Flair double oven from the early 1960s. The thing is amazing, and still works perfectly. I think it cost something like $400 originally, which would be north of $3000 today, however in 1963 the median income was $6200 [1], so that would be closer to $4000 for the median person of today. For that kind of money, you could definitely get some nicer appliances today. Although the switch from simple analog to complex digital electronics probably puts a more modest ceiling on the lifespan of anything made today. On the other hand, there is also something to be said for being able to have an oven without taking out a loan! 1. https://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-043.pdf https://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-043.pdf
pmarreck 9y ago
I suggest anyone who hasn't already visited add Germany to their future itineraries. Did a 2-week trip there almost exactly a year ago and it was quite eye-opening, everything from being able to bike anywhere in Munich, to seeing how well everything is maintained, to how courteous (and active) the people are, and even visiting a concentration camp to get a sense that even a good people can fall into depravity (which Germans are keenly aware of). (I went to Munich and Berlin and a few other beautiful cities like Heidelberg. All were incredible.) And everyone under the age of about 55 or so speaks fluent English! (but German is kinda fun, if you're inclined to pick up some) Also, having some Leberkäse on a pretzel roll with a bit of mustard and a German beer while outside watching people pass by on the town square on a sunny 72 degree (sorry, "22 Grad") day, is just about the most satisfying lunch I've ever had in my life.
- NTDF9 9y ago
  >> everything from being able to bike anywhere in Munich, to seeing how well everything is maintained, to how courteous the people are, and even visiting a concentration camp to get a sense that even a good people can fall into depravity I think a large part of this is the focus on collective good and "do not be evil/selfish" ethos pounded on kids since childhood. Compare that to the US where kids are taught that individualism is all that matters. Your friends don't matter, family doesn't matter, community doesn't matter, environment doesn't matter etc. With all its wealth, living in America is like living in a super mario game, constantly avoiding obstructions and hassles.
- csnewb 9y ago
  +1. Was recently in Berlin and Munich and had a similar experience. Also Oktoberfest in Munich is something that everyone needs to experience.
  - WalterBright 9y ago
    I've been to Germany many times and hugely enjoyed it as well.
- samsonradu 9y ago
alexasmyths 9y ago
"are notoriously reclusive—perhaps because extreme wealth is considered tacky." No, Europeans have a great disdain and entrenched negative view of wealth. (Edit: admittedly, most 'nouveau riche' North Americans are fairly tacky in their expenditures. Some spectacularly so. I do actually find it borderline offensive, some of the Instagram rubbish. Being 'showy' with wealth is a sure sign of lack of real nobility) In Europe, people's instincts are 'zero sum game' - someone has wealth because they must have 'taken' it, or one of their ancestors had. In America it's a little more 1+1=3, even though that's often on the case. Particularly in the valley. Bing Gordon had some funny things to say about that - even American East Coast culture (i.e. banking) is very much zero sum. The Valley, despite it's shades of narcissism is also very social in some ways. Think of open source. It's a hugely important concept. And it's very much 1+1=3, I think. And yet, immensely wealthy Google and others still treats 'any non essential staff' with low pay, like a 'lower caste'. (I find sometimes we think our 'free software' contributions are 'noble and virtuous' and then we forget that it's our actual actions in life that matter as well...) I like German culture - and yes, it's communitarian, but also very classist. The state decides who goes to uni and not by the time you're a young teen - and it's kids of well off parents. Uni is 'free' but they send fewer kids there. In Austria - it used to be up until actually quite recently that a CEO who ran his business into the ground could face jail time, not kidding. 'Failure' is something that stuck with your identity forever. 'Failed business' = 'you're finished'. I don't think Germanic culture has yet figured out the art of embracing failure. The 'math' on failure is hard when invariably investors lose money.
- SilasX 9y ago
  I remember a HN comment a while ago that explained how German/Austrian law makes a lot more sense under the model of "first priority is protecting the public from financial scams". So it's understandable that they'd err on the side of lumping (some) legitimate business failures with the scams.
  - alexasmyths 9y ago
    ""first priority is protecting the public from financial scams"" I have German ancestry and would say it runs deeper. It's an inherent agri/communitarian mindset. 'Practicality first'. 'Value for the dollar'. 'Frugality'. 'Risk aversion'. 'Moderation'. etc. etc.. look at how different Merkel is from other world leaders ...
IslaDeEncanta 9y ago
Germany has strong unions and a corporate structure known as codetermination in all large businesses that helps balance the power between capital and labor. Those two qualities, along with a monetary union that they dominate are the causes of their prosperity, not some phony value difference.
- cfmcdonald 9y ago
  Aren't the differences you cite are precisely explainable as the outcome of a more communitarian and less individualistic value system?
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  The fact that Unions sit on boards is a function of their cultural values. I'm not saying it's good or bad, rather, it's not just some policy, but a reflection of cultures.
  - andreasklinger 9y ago
    There are stories about German companies (eg Aldi) who even had to push their US workers to even form unions.
Camillo 9y ago
Germany is successful because it kept its manufacturing jobs through the collaboration of capital and trade unions: the capitalists kept the factories in Germany, and the unions accepted wage restrictions [1][2] to stay internationally competitive. This is quite unlike SV capitalism, but neither does it look like the opposite, which would be socialism. The best description of it is corporatism. Of course, this also means that the benefits of Germany's roaring performance in international trade have trouble reaching regular Germans. As for happiness, the recent election results do not look like the choice of a population which is content with the current course. [1]: https://www.socialeurope.eu/was-german-wage-undercutting-deliberate https://www.socialeurope.eu/was-german-wage-undercutting-del... [2]: http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/a-share-of-future-profits-german-employees-exchange-wage-cuts-for-equity-a-640304.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/a-share-of-futu...
dang 9y ago
The only 'interesting new phenomenon' [1] here—and it's neither very interesting nor very new—is that American media sites now put "Silicon Valley" in every title they can. This is the dumbest example I've seen yet: it literally conses "Silicon Valley" onto article body just to get away with putting it in the title. Apparently it's one baity supplement that hasn't stopped working yet. Probably we should write some code to penalize such submissions a la 'one weird trick' etc. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- smt88 9y ago
  You say that you don't like this phenomenon, but it seems completely apt here. Silicon Valley does have a particular culture, and it does value certain things more highly than other places. SV is, to some extent, idolized in the US. Germany's cultural values are different. Germany is doing well, whereas recent surveys have showed that people in SV want to get the hell out. So what exactly in the article are you arguing against? How is the SV reference not related to the content?
  - dang 9y ago
    There's nothing to argue against. The article only mentions SV in its first sentence and obviously just as a made-up handwave. That's doesn't 'gratify intellectual curiosity' as the HN guidelines call for: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. What it gratifies is preconceived opinion, making it just the sort of article we don't want here. Whether the button-pusher happens to be SV or something else doesn't matter a bit.
    - smt88 9y ago
      It doesn't repeatedly mention SV by name, but it contrasts well-known SV values/practices against German values throughout the article. Examples: - bootstrap capitalism - work-life balance[1] - replacing meals with Soylent These are pretty direct mentions of SV culture, and it even mentions Soylent by name. I think Soylent is an excellent poster-child for what some people think is right with SV and a lot of people think is wrong. And that's not even an exhaustive list of the ways the article addresses the differences of values. 1. "Moreover, for Germans, a good work-life balance does not involve unlimited massages and free meals on the corporate campus to encourage 90-hour weeks."
arjie 9y ago
Masturbatory nonsense. Don't waste your time. If HN allowed me to pay 100 karma points to downvote, I would use them here.
- Fnoord 9y ago
  > Masturbatory nonsense Thank you for your thought provoking analysis. Why masturbatory nonsense? Yes, the article is rose-tinted because it doesn't describe issues in German society; it is one-sided. However, that's obviously clear from reading it. It doesn't pretend to be otherwise. There's already at least 2 comments which nuance the article. Furthermore, the article's purpose appears to be meant as a counter-thought of the "American Dream" (apparently that's now called "Silicon Valley" because very little in the article was about technology).
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
someone42 9y ago
German here. Whow, what an uninformed and misleading article. The FDP remains irrelevant and its "politicians" are mostly show-offs nowadays (a trend that started with the ineffable Guido Westerwelle) and some were outright criminal or supportive of white-collar crimes (see the Flick affair for details). The times of the old FDP, with old-style liberals - not "liberal" economists like today - such as Gerhart Baum (who still posts constitutional challenges at the age of 85!) is long gone. There are also a number of factual errors. For example, the minimum vacation time guaranteed by law is only four weeks, though the average is quite a bit higher. The situation regarding the selection of students is also far more complex than described (speaking as a CE professor coming from a working-class family, I know what I'm talking about). If you are visiting Germany, try the Ruhr area - e.g., Duisburg-Marxloh, Dortmund-Nordstadt - or any of the small deserted villages in the eastern states and maybe Berlin Kottbusser Tor for some glimpses of a different German reality - poverty, crime, drugs and xenophobia. Munich has the highest cost of living of all German cities, though far cheaper than SFO and Silicon Valley, and is hardly representative. And don't get me started on these neo-nazi assholes who are in the Bundestag now. Horrible. A well-known saying in some academic circles is "It's a great time to emigrate from Germany - but where to?". That might sum up the current situation here quite well...
- woodandsteel 9y ago
  >deserted villages in the eastern states Isn't that the consequence of half a century under communism?
  - majewsky 9y ago
    No, it's the consequence of merging two vastly different economies too fast. When the wall came down, most progressives in East Germany (i.e. those called "dissidents" by the Socialists) argued for a confederation of both German states with the longterm target of reunification. The West German government forced a quick reunification in order for their own companies to buy up the useful assets of East German economy via the Treuhandanstalt [1]. It's basically the same problem that you have inside the European Union today: Vastly different economies have been forced into a common currency without a political framework that pushes for a harmonic integration of the constituent economies, resulting in the industry sector of relatively underdeveloped economies like Greece to be utterly crushed by the German industry, degrading them to a source of cheap labor for German (or rather: multinational) corporations. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treuhandanstalt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treuhandanstalt
dpweb 9y ago
Was in Germany & Austria - for the first time, over the summer. Wonderful, and highly recommend Europe to visit. I think I'm permanently done with the Caribbean.
- justboxing 9y ago
  > I think I'm permanently done with the Caribbean Why? Crime? Drugs? Curious, not trolling. Thinking of moving to Jamaica or Trinidad.
  - mustntmumble 9y ago
    Perhaps he/she is sick of hurricanes, that will only become more frequent and more powerful as the ocean continues to warm up...
deepsun 9y ago
They don't mention about one very big drawback of Germany, one that will never allow it to raise the next Silicon Valley: dislike of immigrants and foreigners. It's not visible on surface, and looks pretty meritocratic, especially when CEO lunches with you in common canteen, but once you work a little in upper-middle class with intellectual workers, you will start noticing that inside they don't accept anyone foreign. Also, too much pride for their language adds even more barrier for accent-speakers. In contrast, Silicon Valley is probably the most immigrant-friendly place I've ever seen. There can be no German Sundar Pichai, nor Sergey Brin, nor Satya Nadella, nor Shantanu Narayen. So I'm quite skeptical to those "Berlin is the new SV" posts that pop up on HN every month or so.
wink 9y ago
German here, not happy (overall). /s I think the article misses the main point. Lindner's FDP might have gotten better results than in past elections, but it's not that most other people decry them for their "startup values". The more common thing is this age-old quip of lumping the conservatives (color: black) and the liberals (color: yellow) together (as they reigned when Kohl was Chancellor) - as "Schwarz-Geld" (Which is a pun on Schwarz-Gelb, i.e. black-yellow) So yes, my personal standpoint as a well-off software developer is: I can't in good conscience vote for the FDP until my salary improves by like 50% - then I'd see myself in their voters market. (e.g. tax cuts for buying a house, etc.) There's always been a tiny part of the FDP advocating most of the stuff that the CCC also stands for, i.e. freedom of information, privacy, digital, etc.pp - but it's really miniscule imho. So much for my monthly FDP bashing - because it's the party I'd love to like, but just can't.

48 points by benevol 9y ago

> Sure, they favor high-quality consumer goods—but they deliberate on what to buy for years, and expect their possessions to last for decades. This. The US was similar in this aspect until major retail manufacturers started outsourcing everything to China. I remember reading elsewhere on HN a while back, how Sears Washing Machines, Refridgerators and other house hold appliances would last for decades, then, somewhere along the 70s or 80s, they (and several other major home appliance retailers) switched to manufacturing in China on the cheap and did away with repairing stuff. That just forces you to toss your old appliance and buy a new one every 7 to 10 years when they fall apart.

alexasmyths 9y ago
Partly that, it's partly by design. A) They want them to fail so people buy more. B) Consumers in North America like change. They want new stuff.
Fnoord 9y ago
Thing is, if you buy a new washing machine and replace it within 10 years you end up spending money on a new, cheaper one which is more environment-friendly than the most environment-friendly ones from 10 years ago. Whereas your Miele would've lasted 20 years easily but would've been out of date on the environmental department. Its a catch-22. The same with something like smartphones (I take it readers are thinking about smartphones when they read this article? Very 'ungerman' product IMO). If you buy a new one you end up downcycling the plastic and recycling some of the elements. Yes, you gotta pay again for a phone. But its also presumably better. It wasn't possible to upgrade the old phone because phones are such small, embedded technology (with bad software support being a minor part of the problem) that they've become waste products. We, as tech community, need to solve this problem in order to reduce environmental waste. How? Modular devices. Laptops used to be modular. Now they've gone the smartphone route. Why? Less weight/size, and less durability and the inability to fix it yourself yields more profit. We can stop this by voting with our wallet.
jlgray 9y ago
Some of that has a "you get what you pay for" component. My parents have a Frigidaire Flair double oven from the early 1960s. The thing is amazing, and still works perfectly. I think it cost something like $400 originally, which would be north of $3000 today, however in 1963 the median income was $6200 [1], so that would be closer to $4000 for the median person of today. For that kind of money, you could definitely get some nicer appliances today. Although the switch from simple analog to complex digital electronics probably puts a more modest ceiling on the lifespan of anything made today. On the other hand, there is also something to be said for being able to have an oven without taking out a loan! 1. https://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-043.pdf https://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-043.pdf

pmarreck 9y ago

I suggest anyone who hasn't already visited add Germany to their future itineraries. Did a 2-week trip there almost exactly a year ago and it was quite eye-opening, everything from being able to bike anywhere in Munich, to seeing how well everything is maintained, to how courteous (and active) the people are, and even visiting a concentration camp to get a sense that even a good people can fall into depravity (which Germans are keenly aware of). (I went to Munich and Berlin and a few other beautiful cities like Heidelberg. All were incredible.) And everyone under the age of about 55 or so speaks fluent English! (but German is kinda fun, if you're inclined to pick up some) Also, having some Leberkäse on a pretzel roll with a bit of mustard and a German beer while outside watching people pass by on the town square on a sunny 72 degree (sorry, "22 Grad") day, is just about the most satisfying lunch I've ever had in my life.

NTDF9 9y ago
>> everything from being able to bike anywhere in Munich, to seeing how well everything is maintained, to how courteous the people are, and even visiting a concentration camp to get a sense that even a good people can fall into depravity I think a large part of this is the focus on collective good and "do not be evil/selfish" ethos pounded on kids since childhood. Compare that to the US where kids are taught that individualism is all that matters. Your friends don't matter, family doesn't matter, community doesn't matter, environment doesn't matter etc. With all its wealth, living in America is like living in a super mario game, constantly avoiding obstructions and hassles.
csnewb 9y ago
+1. Was recently in Berlin and Munich and had a similar experience. Also Oktoberfest in Munich is something that everyone needs to experience.
- WalterBright 9y ago
  I've been to Germany many times and hugely enjoyed it as well.
samsonradu 9y ago

alexasmyths 9y ago

"are notoriously reclusive—perhaps because extreme wealth is considered tacky." No, Europeans have a great disdain and entrenched negative view of wealth. (Edit: admittedly, most 'nouveau riche' North Americans are fairly tacky in their expenditures. Some spectacularly so. I do actually find it borderline offensive, some of the Instagram rubbish. Being 'showy' with wealth is a sure sign of lack of real nobility) In Europe, people's instincts are 'zero sum game' - someone has wealth because they must have 'taken' it, or one of their ancestors had. In America it's a little more 1+1=3, even though that's often on the case. Particularly in the valley. Bing Gordon had some funny things to say about that - even American East Coast culture (i.e. banking) is very much zero sum. The Valley, despite it's shades of narcissism is also very social in some ways. Think of open source. It's a hugely important concept. And it's very much 1+1=3, I think. And yet, immensely wealthy Google and others still treats 'any non essential staff' with low pay, like a 'lower caste'. (I find sometimes we think our 'free software' contributions are 'noble and virtuous' and then we forget that it's our actual actions in life that matter as well...) I like German culture - and yes, it's communitarian, but also very classist. The state decides who goes to uni and not by the time you're a young teen - and it's kids of well off parents. Uni is 'free' but they send fewer kids there. In Austria - it used to be up until actually quite recently that a CEO who ran his business into the ground could face jail time, not kidding. 'Failure' is something that stuck with your identity forever. 'Failed business' = 'you're finished'. I don't think Germanic culture has yet figured out the art of embracing failure. The 'math' on failure is hard when invariably investors lose money.

SilasX 9y ago
I remember a HN comment a while ago that explained how German/Austrian law makes a lot more sense under the model of "first priority is protecting the public from financial scams". So it's understandable that they'd err on the side of lumping (some) legitimate business failures with the scams.
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  ""first priority is protecting the public from financial scams"" I have German ancestry and would say it runs deeper. It's an inherent agri/communitarian mindset. 'Practicality first'. 'Value for the dollar'. 'Frugality'. 'Risk aversion'. 'Moderation'. etc. etc.. look at how different Merkel is from other world leaders ...

IslaDeEncanta 9y ago

Germany has strong unions and a corporate structure known as codetermination in all large businesses that helps balance the power between capital and labor. Those two qualities, along with a monetary union that they dominate are the causes of their prosperity, not some phony value difference.

cfmcdonald 9y ago
Aren't the differences you cite are precisely explainable as the outcome of a more communitarian and less individualistic value system?
alexasmyths 9y ago
The fact that Unions sit on boards is a function of their cultural values. I'm not saying it's good or bad, rather, it's not just some policy, but a reflection of cultures.
- andreasklinger 9y ago
  There are stories about German companies (eg Aldi) who even had to push their US workers to even form unions.

Camillo 9y ago

Germany is successful because it kept its manufacturing jobs through the collaboration of capital and trade unions: the capitalists kept the factories in Germany, and the unions accepted wage restrictions [1][2] to stay internationally competitive. This is quite unlike SV capitalism, but neither does it look like the opposite, which would be socialism. The best description of it is corporatism. Of course, this also means that the benefits of Germany's roaring performance in international trade have trouble reaching regular Germans. As for happiness, the recent election results do not look like the choice of a population which is content with the current course. [1]: https://www.socialeurope.eu/was-german-wage-undercutting-deliberate https://www.socialeurope.eu/was-german-wage-undercutting-del... [2]: http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/a-share-of-future-profits-german-employees-exchange-wage-cuts-for-equity-a-640304.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/a-share-of-futu...

dang 9y ago

The only 'interesting new phenomenon' [1] here—and it's neither very interesting nor very new—is that American media sites now put "Silicon Valley" in every title they can. This is the dumbest example I've seen yet: it literally conses "Silicon Valley" onto article body just to get away with putting it in the title. Apparently it's one baity supplement that hasn't stopped working yet. Probably we should write some code to penalize such submissions a la 'one weird trick' etc. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

smt88 9y ago
You say that you don't like this phenomenon, but it seems completely apt here. Silicon Valley does have a particular culture, and it does value certain things more highly than other places. SV is, to some extent, idolized in the US. Germany's cultural values are different. Germany is doing well, whereas recent surveys have showed that people in SV want to get the hell out. So what exactly in the article are you arguing against? How is the SV reference not related to the content?
- dang 9y ago
  There's nothing to argue against. The article only mentions SV in its first sentence and obviously just as a made-up handwave. That's doesn't 'gratify intellectual curiosity' as the HN guidelines call for: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. What it gratifies is preconceived opinion, making it just the sort of article we don't want here. Whether the button-pusher happens to be SV or something else doesn't matter a bit.
  - smt88 9y ago
    It doesn't repeatedly mention SV by name, but it contrasts well-known SV values/practices against German values throughout the article. Examples: - bootstrap capitalism - work-life balance[1] - replacing meals with Soylent These are pretty direct mentions of SV culture, and it even mentions Soylent by name. I think Soylent is an excellent poster-child for what some people think is right with SV and a lot of people think is wrong. And that's not even an exhaustive list of the ways the article addresses the differences of values. 1. "Moreover, for Germans, a good work-life balance does not involve unlimited massages and free meals on the corporate campus to encourage 90-hour weeks."

arjie 9y ago

Masturbatory nonsense. Don't waste your time. If HN allowed me to pay 100 karma points to downvote, I would use them here.

Fnoord 9y ago
> Masturbatory nonsense Thank you for your thought provoking analysis. Why masturbatory nonsense? Yes, the article is rose-tinted because it doesn't describe issues in German society; it is one-sided. However, that's obviously clear from reading it. It doesn't pretend to be otherwise. There's already at least 2 comments which nuance the article. Furthermore, the article's purpose appears to be meant as a counter-thought of the "American Dream" (apparently that's now called "Silicon Valley" because very little in the article was about technology).

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

someone42 9y ago

German here. Whow, what an uninformed and misleading article. The FDP remains irrelevant and its "politicians" are mostly show-offs nowadays (a trend that started with the ineffable Guido Westerwelle) and some were outright criminal or supportive of white-collar crimes (see the Flick affair for details). The times of the old FDP, with old-style liberals - not "liberal" economists like today - such as Gerhart Baum (who still posts constitutional challenges at the age of 85!) is long gone. There are also a number of factual errors. For example, the minimum vacation time guaranteed by law is only four weeks, though the average is quite a bit higher. The situation regarding the selection of students is also far more complex than described (speaking as a CE professor coming from a working-class family, I know what I'm talking about). If you are visiting Germany, try the Ruhr area - e.g., Duisburg-Marxloh, Dortmund-Nordstadt - or any of the small deserted villages in the eastern states and maybe Berlin Kottbusser Tor for some glimpses of a different German reality - poverty, crime, drugs and xenophobia. Munich has the highest cost of living of all German cities, though far cheaper than SFO and Silicon Valley, and is hardly representative. And don't get me started on these neo-nazi assholes who are in the Bundestag now. Horrible. A well-known saying in some academic circles is "It's a great time to emigrate from Germany - but where to?". That might sum up the current situation here quite well...

woodandsteel 9y ago
>deserted villages in the eastern states Isn't that the consequence of half a century under communism?
- majewsky 9y ago
  No, it's the consequence of merging two vastly different economies too fast. When the wall came down, most progressives in East Germany (i.e. those called "dissidents" by the Socialists) argued for a confederation of both German states with the longterm target of reunification. The West German government forced a quick reunification in order for their own companies to buy up the useful assets of East German economy via the Treuhandanstalt [1]. It's basically the same problem that you have inside the European Union today: Vastly different economies have been forced into a common currency without a political framework that pushes for a harmonic integration of the constituent economies, resulting in the industry sector of relatively underdeveloped economies like Greece to be utterly crushed by the German industry, degrading them to a source of cheap labor for German (or rather: multinational) corporations. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treuhandanstalt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treuhandanstalt

dpweb 9y ago

Was in Germany & Austria - for the first time, over the summer. Wonderful, and highly recommend Europe to visit. I think I'm permanently done with the Caribbean.

justboxing 9y ago
> I think I'm permanently done with the Caribbean Why? Crime? Drugs? Curious, not trolling. Thinking of moving to Jamaica or Trinidad.
- mustntmumble 9y ago
  Perhaps he/she is sick of hurricanes, that will only become more frequent and more powerful as the ocean continues to warm up...

deepsun 9y ago

They don't mention about one very big drawback of Germany, one that will never allow it to raise the next Silicon Valley: dislike of immigrants and foreigners. It's not visible on surface, and looks pretty meritocratic, especially when CEO lunches with you in common canteen, but once you work a little in upper-middle class with intellectual workers, you will start noticing that inside they don't accept anyone foreign. Also, too much pride for their language adds even more barrier for accent-speakers. In contrast, Silicon Valley is probably the most immigrant-friendly place I've ever seen. There can be no German Sundar Pichai, nor Sergey Brin, nor Satya Nadella, nor Shantanu Narayen. So I'm quite skeptical to those "Berlin is the new SV" posts that pop up on HN every month or so.

wink 9y ago

German here, not happy (overall). /s I think the article misses the main point. Lindner's FDP might have gotten better results than in past elections, but it's not that most other people decry them for their "startup values". The more common thing is this age-old quip of lumping the conservatives (color: black) and the liberals (color: yellow) together (as they reigned when Kohl was Chancellor) - as "Schwarz-Geld" (Which is a pun on Schwarz-Gelb, i.e. black-yellow) So yes, my personal standpoint as a well-off software developer is: I can't in good conscience vote for the FDP until my salary improves by like 50% - then I'd see myself in their voters market. (e.g. tax cuts for buying a house, etc.) There's always been a tiny part of the FDP advocating most of the stuff that the CCC also stands for, i.e. freedom of information, privacy, digital, etc.pp - but it's really miniscule imho. So much for my monthly FDP bashing - because it's the party I'd love to like, but just can't.