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You are implying that there is a "secret" based on that face mapping that can be copied out of the device and then used to either 1) gain access to a non-Apple

You are implying that there is a "secret" based on that face mapping that can be copied out of the device and then used to either 1) gain access to a non-Apple system that has some kind of biometric face detection system or 2) can be used to reproduce a face like yours to unlock your phone without you present From the PDF: "Once it confirms the presence of an attentive face, the TrueDepth camera projects and reads over 30,000 infrared dots to form a depth map of the face, along with a 2D infrared image. This data is used to create a sequence of 2D images and depth maps, which are digitally signed and sent to the Secure Enclave. To counter both digital and physical spoofs, the TrueDepth camera randomizes the sequence of 2D images and depth map captures, and projects a device-specific random pattern. A portion of the A11 Bionic chip’s neural engine—protected within the Secure Enclave—transforms this data into a mathematical representation and compares that representation to the enrolled facial data. This enrolled facial data is itself a mathematical representation of your face captured across a variety of poses. " So, it's more like a hash of your face, which is very similar to how TouchID works. So, again, even if someone were able to break into the secure enclave and get that data, what could they do with it? It's a representation of yourself that is used for Apple devices. Also, this is an OPTIONAL feature. If it doesn't fit your security model, don't use it. For the same reason a lot of people don't use TouchID -- they want the security of a passphrase. But for 90%+ of people that will buy that phone and are not at risk of the government or police pursuing them, the security it offers is more than adequate and it achieves this by not annoying the user and requiring them to have a 50 character passphrase.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
Point a similar device at someone's face. Now you have their facial structure. You can open up their iPhone, desolder the FaceID hardware, and feed the leads captured inputs. Boom, phone unlocked. Even if they have some defense against that, you can just 3D print the person's face in a few hours and be done. Easy to write the data down in a less secure database somewhere, too. This is trivial to do if the person is in custody. You could also profile a specific target and get their face walking past them on the street. You could do this in bulk in a public place. Now your face is compromised and the person who stole it likely posesses your phone and is unlocking it now. You can't change your face, but it's too late anyway. You live in an oppressive regime, they found out you're gay from what they found in your phone, and you're going to be hanged in a week.
- MBCook 9y ago
  Ignoring the rediculous level of technical sophistication needed... You can’t ‘get their face’ if they’re ‘walking by’, you have to go through the whole enrollment. How are you going to trick them into that? Also even if they go through some Herculean process to get your ‘face hash’ Apple could simply change the hash algorithm and reset it. For all we know different phones will use a different per-device random seed in the algorithm and that attack wouldn’t work at all even if the algorithm isn’t changed. Again, you’re talking about getting a fully accurate 3D model of someone’s face that passes the FaceID tests and can be used to trick the attention sensors. That’s an INSANE level of effort for Joe random. This is not a realistic attack, and FaceID is not designed to secure anyone at any time from any government with unlimited funds and resources. It’s designed to be better than the trivial passcodes that almost no one used.
- eeeeeeeeeeeee 9y ago
  Actually, no. When you first power on an iPhone, you need the passphrase, not the FaceID. So swapping hardware does you no good unless you also have the passphrase/passcode. Either way, let's say this attack you're talking about is possible. What % of people that buy this phone are actually going to be at risk of someone taking their phone apart to compromise them in this way? This method you explained is in no way "trivial." If you're Edward Snowden, don't use this feature. Simple as that. But I wouldn't use TouchID if I was Snowden either. Judging by your last paragraph, though, I'm guessing you're trolling. Have a nice day.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
    >Actually, no. When you first power on an iPhone, you need the passphrase, not the FaceID. So swapping hardware does you no good unless you also have the passphrase/passcode. You don't need to shut off the phone to get into the hardware. >What % of people that buy this phone are actually going to be at risk of someone taking their phone apart to compromise them in this way? This method you explained is in no way "trivial." On the other hand, I bet a company could easily implement such an attack on the cheap and sell it to LE, who would just pass the costs on to the defendant. >Judging by your last paragraph, though, I'm guessing you're trolling. Have a nice day. I'm setting the stakes. If you're not up for the discussion that's up to you.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago

Point a similar device at someone's face. Now you have their facial structure. You can open up their iPhone, desolder the FaceID hardware, and feed the leads captured inputs. Boom, phone unlocked. Even if they have some defense against that, you can just 3D print the person's face in a few hours and be done. Easy to write the data down in a less secure database somewhere, too. This is trivial to do if the person is in custody. You could also profile a specific target and get their face walking past them on the street. You could do this in bulk in a public place. Now your face is compromised and the person who stole it likely posesses your phone and is unlocking it now. You can't change your face, but it's too late anyway. You live in an oppressive regime, they found out you're gay from what they found in your phone, and you're going to be hanged in a week.

MBCook 9y ago
Ignoring the rediculous level of technical sophistication needed... You can’t ‘get their face’ if they’re ‘walking by’, you have to go through the whole enrollment. How are you going to trick them into that? Also even if they go through some Herculean process to get your ‘face hash’ Apple could simply change the hash algorithm and reset it. For all we know different phones will use a different per-device random seed in the algorithm and that attack wouldn’t work at all even if the algorithm isn’t changed. Again, you’re talking about getting a fully accurate 3D model of someone’s face that passes the FaceID tests and can be used to trick the attention sensors. That’s an INSANE level of effort for Joe random. This is not a realistic attack, and FaceID is not designed to secure anyone at any time from any government with unlimited funds and resources. It’s designed to be better than the trivial passcodes that almost no one used.
eeeeeeeeeeeee 9y ago
Actually, no. When you first power on an iPhone, you need the passphrase, not the FaceID. So swapping hardware does you no good unless you also have the passphrase/passcode. Either way, let's say this attack you're talking about is possible. What % of people that buy this phone are actually going to be at risk of someone taking their phone apart to compromise them in this way? This method you explained is in no way "trivial." If you're Edward Snowden, don't use this feature. Simple as that. But I wouldn't use TouchID if I was Snowden either. Judging by your last paragraph, though, I'm guessing you're trolling. Have a nice day.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  >Actually, no. When you first power on an iPhone, you need the passphrase, not the FaceID. So swapping hardware does you no good unless you also have the passphrase/passcode. You don't need to shut off the phone to get into the hardware. >What % of people that buy this phone are actually going to be at risk of someone taking their phone apart to compromise them in this way? This method you explained is in no way "trivial." On the other hand, I bet a company could easily implement such an attack on the cheap and sell it to LE, who would just pass the costs on to the defendant. >Judging by your last paragraph, though, I'm guessing you're trolling. Have a nice day. I'm setting the stakes. If you're not up for the discussion that's up to you.