4 ms·

It all depends on your threat model. Police are perfectly capable of breaking into my home, but it doesn't matter, because if they do it without a warrant every

It all depends on your threat model. Police are perfectly capable of breaking into my home, but it doesn't matter, because if they do it without a warrant everything they find is inadmissible in court. Whereas with FaceID, if I'm arrested and they point my phone at my face to unlock it against my will, anything they find is now admissible as evidence.

wmertens 9y ago
I keep hoping that FaceID will also get FacePassword, where you have to show one or more expressions in order. Then it becomes a password, and the police can't force you to change your expression.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  To the extent the police can legally compel you to provide access to a device, the means by which that access is protected does not impede their legal capability to do it and impose consequences for non-compliance.
  - mbgerring 9y ago
    That's the thing -- the police can't legally compel you to provide them access to your device, but if they can get it without you having to give them anything, by, say, pointing the phone at your face, it's fair game. I don't have time to look up the court precedents about this, but that's my understanding of the current state of the law.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      I misread the upthread comment as implying that FaceID “passwords” were more legally secure than regular passwords, not just more legally secure than plain FaceID. I agree that the description you provide is generally correct.
    - jsjohnst 9y ago
      > the police can't legally compel you to provide them access to your device Your understanding of the current state of the law is very wrong. There's a person in the US [0] who has been in jail for multiple years now without being tried / convicted due to refusing to provide access to their devices. There's another case with a warrant[1] allowing an officer to force someone to unlock their phone protected by TouchID. I have also heard multiple US states have enacted laws specifically addressing device unlock, but I don't have links to them at the moment. [0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/08/man-in-jail-2-years-for-refusing-to-decrypt-drives-will-he-ever-get-out/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/08/man-in-jail-2-ye... [1] http://files.cloudprivacy.net/la-iphone-fingerprint-warrant.pdf http://files.cloudprivacy.net/la-iphone-fingerprint-warrant....
      - mbgerring 9y ago
        I don't think "very wrong" is a fair assesment. Here's a summary of current law (as of 2016) concerning cell phone passwords: https://consumerist.com/2016/05/03/can-law-enforcement-force-you-to-unlock-your-phone-with-a-fingerprint/ https://consumerist.com/2016/05/03/can-law-enforcement-force...
        jsjohnst 9y ago
        > the police can't legally compel you That is a very wrong statement. I don’t care if things changed a year or more ago, it doesn’t make it any less wrong now. I of course meant no offense to you, but legal statements which are wrong could easily mislead someone and the emphasis is necessary. Apologies if offense was taken!
- whistlerbrk 9y ago
  Or better yet. Permanent lock or deletion of data if you perform a sequence of facial features you can set. Blink blink smile nod blink
- mtgx 9y ago
  That's a pretty fantastic idea. I think even courts will find that the government can't compel you to change your face expression, as they tend to do that for anything the government can't physically force you to do anyway. For instance, they say the government forcing you to unlock with your fingerprint is legal, because the government's agents can use force to put your finger on the phone anyway. So it's legal. But the government can't force you to "remember" your password. So trying to do that is illegal.
  - URSpider94 9y ago
    Oh no, they can compel you to enter your password. By which I mean, if you don’t enter it, they can hold you in contempt of court indefinitely (possibly even for longer than you would be held if you submitted to the search and were found guilty based on the evidence and received the maximum sentence).
briandear 9y ago
Two questions: How often do you get arrested where that edge case is a legitimate concern? If being arrested were a legitimate concern, why would you keep data on your phone that would implicate you in a crime? If you were in a higher risk group (i.e. a drug dealer,) why not disable Face ID? Use a six digit pin and be done with it. I am not particularly worried about cops, I am worried about losing my phone and having some jackass using my data to fill his bank account.
- mbgerring 9y ago
  I and others I know have faced this problem often enough that it is a primary concern for me. Political dissidents are the group I'm concerned about. Police are very interested in extracting contact lists from activists' phones in order to build a model of their social networks and infiltrate/disrupt them. This is a pervasive problem. Yes, the answer is to get people to turn off FaceID if they're at risk, but educating large groups of at-risk people is hard, and it would be better if this feature were not turned on by default.
  - MBCook 9y ago
    Apple’s studies/metrics showed that basically no one (5-10%?) used passwords or pins before TouchID. You already have to educate them to use a password, is it that hard to say ‘and don’t use biometrics either’?
    - mbgerring 9y ago
      No, now you have an additional problem, because they might ignore the advice to use a password now that they think their device is secure by default
      - MBCook 9y ago
        Would they? The only data we have says that even though people should secure things they don’t. Is it really going to be that different for people who have a REALLY good reason? I kind of doubt it. And does it matter? If a government wants to repress they’ll do it. They’ll beat you or harass you or something like that. “Well we think you’re trying to overthrow us but FaceID is turned off on your phone. I guess we’ll give up today. You’re free to go, have a nice time. ”
orbifold 9y ago
There is a way to quickly disable face id, presumably you would do so in most situations when facing police.
- Fnoord 9y ago
  There's also a way to break in your house whilst you're gone or asleep. In the former case, if the device is in your house, would you've disabled FaceID? In the latter case, would you've disabled FaceID? Would you've disabled FaceID when you were going outside (with your device) and you'd be busted then? Answer in all these cases: Of course not. So a PIN alone would've been more secure. It'd have cost the government more effort to crack. A strong password or TOTP would've been a better solution. Pref. 2FA w/both. You could use FaceID as 2FA, but then people need to keep in mind that its a very weak chain in the 2FA. They still need a strong other factor ie. a strong password.
  - dkonofalski 9y ago
    That doesn't really make sense. If they take your phone while you're gone or asleep, FaceID is worthless to the attacker anyways because they'd either not be attentive or they wouldn't have your face at all. On top of that, FaceID disables itself and requires a passcode after 4 hours of no detection or 48 hours of continuous time that the phone hasn't been unlocked. Either way, you'd be covered. The only situation where this is actually an issue is where you're being compelled, on the spot, to unlock your phone and you haven't had the time to click the side buttons (which would be very rare since it would just require you to squeeze both sides and you'd have the chance to do that while performing the action of handing your phone over).
    - Fnoord 9y ago
      > On top of that, FaceID disables itself and requires a passcode after 4 hours of no detection or 48 hours of continuous time that the phone hasn't been unlocked. You know how and where Ross Anderson was busted? This is peanuts to beat. You bust the target whilst they're on a dinner having a drink, or right after they went asleep. The government knows your current position, and knows when you're asleep. Once this has become the status quo, rest assured cops with a police warrant wouldn't enter anymore at 6 AM right before you wake up but at 1 AM right after you went asleep (but before your FaceID would time out). > (which would be very rare since it would just require you to squeeze both sides and you'd have the chance to do that while performing the action of handing your phone over). Law enforcement will adapt very quickly to that if this becomes the status quo. They'll first and foremost bust your hands, so that you are unable to lock your phone. Then they hold the phone before you and voila, unlocked.

wmertens 9y ago

I keep hoping that FaceID will also get FacePassword, where you have to show one or more expressions in order. Then it becomes a password, and the police can't force you to change your expression.

dragonwriter 9y ago
To the extent the police can legally compel you to provide access to a device, the means by which that access is protected does not impede their legal capability to do it and impose consequences for non-compliance.
- mbgerring 9y ago
  That's the thing -- the police can't legally compel you to provide them access to your device, but if they can get it without you having to give them anything, by, say, pointing the phone at your face, it's fair game. I don't have time to look up the court precedents about this, but that's my understanding of the current state of the law.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    I misread the upthread comment as implying that FaceID “passwords” were more legally secure than regular passwords, not just more legally secure than plain FaceID. I agree that the description you provide is generally correct.
  - jsjohnst 9y ago
    > the police can't legally compel you to provide them access to your device Your understanding of the current state of the law is very wrong. There's a person in the US [0] who has been in jail for multiple years now without being tried / convicted due to refusing to provide access to their devices. There's another case with a warrant[1] allowing an officer to force someone to unlock their phone protected by TouchID. I have also heard multiple US states have enacted laws specifically addressing device unlock, but I don't have links to them at the moment. [0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/08/man-in-jail-2-years-for-refusing-to-decrypt-drives-will-he-ever-get-out/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/08/man-in-jail-2-ye... [1] http://files.cloudprivacy.net/la-iphone-fingerprint-warrant.pdf http://files.cloudprivacy.net/la-iphone-fingerprint-warrant....
    - mbgerring 9y ago
      I don't think "very wrong" is a fair assesment. Here's a summary of current law (as of 2016) concerning cell phone passwords: https://consumerist.com/2016/05/03/can-law-enforcement-force-you-to-unlock-your-phone-with-a-fingerprint/ https://consumerist.com/2016/05/03/can-law-enforcement-force...
      - jsjohnst 9y ago
        > the police can't legally compel you That is a very wrong statement. I don’t care if things changed a year or more ago, it doesn’t make it any less wrong now. I of course meant no offense to you, but legal statements which are wrong could easily mislead someone and the emphasis is necessary. Apologies if offense was taken!
whistlerbrk 9y ago
Or better yet. Permanent lock or deletion of data if you perform a sequence of facial features you can set. Blink blink smile nod blink
mtgx 9y ago
That's a pretty fantastic idea. I think even courts will find that the government can't compel you to change your face expression, as they tend to do that for anything the government can't physically force you to do anyway. For instance, they say the government forcing you to unlock with your fingerprint is legal, because the government's agents can use force to put your finger on the phone anyway. So it's legal. But the government can't force you to "remember" your password. So trying to do that is illegal.
- URSpider94 9y ago
  Oh no, they can compel you to enter your password. By which I mean, if you don’t enter it, they can hold you in contempt of court indefinitely (possibly even for longer than you would be held if you submitted to the search and were found guilty based on the evidence and received the maximum sentence).

briandear 9y ago

Two questions: How often do you get arrested where that edge case is a legitimate concern? If being arrested were a legitimate concern, why would you keep data on your phone that would implicate you in a crime? If you were in a higher risk group (i.e. a drug dealer,) why not disable Face ID? Use a six digit pin and be done with it. I am not particularly worried about cops, I am worried about losing my phone and having some jackass using my data to fill his bank account.

mbgerring 9y ago
I and others I know have faced this problem often enough that it is a primary concern for me. Political dissidents are the group I'm concerned about. Police are very interested in extracting contact lists from activists' phones in order to build a model of their social networks and infiltrate/disrupt them. This is a pervasive problem. Yes, the answer is to get people to turn off FaceID if they're at risk, but educating large groups of at-risk people is hard, and it would be better if this feature were not turned on by default.
- MBCook 9y ago
  Apple’s studies/metrics showed that basically no one (5-10%?) used passwords or pins before TouchID. You already have to educate them to use a password, is it that hard to say ‘and don’t use biometrics either’?
  - mbgerring 9y ago
    No, now you have an additional problem, because they might ignore the advice to use a password now that they think their device is secure by default
    - MBCook 9y ago
      Would they? The only data we have says that even though people should secure things they don’t. Is it really going to be that different for people who have a REALLY good reason? I kind of doubt it. And does it matter? If a government wants to repress they’ll do it. They’ll beat you or harass you or something like that. “Well we think you’re trying to overthrow us but FaceID is turned off on your phone. I guess we’ll give up today. You’re free to go, have a nice time. ”

orbifold 9y ago

There is a way to quickly disable face id, presumably you would do so in most situations when facing police.

Fnoord 9y ago
There's also a way to break in your house whilst you're gone or asleep. In the former case, if the device is in your house, would you've disabled FaceID? In the latter case, would you've disabled FaceID? Would you've disabled FaceID when you were going outside (with your device) and you'd be busted then? Answer in all these cases: Of course not. So a PIN alone would've been more secure. It'd have cost the government more effort to crack. A strong password or TOTP would've been a better solution. Pref. 2FA w/both. You could use FaceID as 2FA, but then people need to keep in mind that its a very weak chain in the 2FA. They still need a strong other factor ie. a strong password.
- dkonofalski 9y ago
  That doesn't really make sense. If they take your phone while you're gone or asleep, FaceID is worthless to the attacker anyways because they'd either not be attentive or they wouldn't have your face at all. On top of that, FaceID disables itself and requires a passcode after 4 hours of no detection or 48 hours of continuous time that the phone hasn't been unlocked. Either way, you'd be covered. The only situation where this is actually an issue is where you're being compelled, on the spot, to unlock your phone and you haven't had the time to click the side buttons (which would be very rare since it would just require you to squeeze both sides and you'd have the chance to do that while performing the action of handing your phone over).
  - Fnoord 9y ago
    > On top of that, FaceID disables itself and requires a passcode after 4 hours of no detection or 48 hours of continuous time that the phone hasn't been unlocked. You know how and where Ross Anderson was busted? This is peanuts to beat. You bust the target whilst they're on a dinner having a drink, or right after they went asleep. The government knows your current position, and knows when you're asleep. Once this has become the status quo, rest assured cops with a police warrant wouldn't enter anymore at 6 AM right before you wake up but at 1 AM right after you went asleep (but before your FaceID would time out). > (which would be very rare since it would just require you to squeeze both sides and you'd have the chance to do that while performing the action of handing your phone over). Law enforcement will adapt very quickly to that if this becomes the status quo. They'll first and foremost bust your hands, so that you are unable to lock your phone. Then they hold the phone before you and voila, unlocked.