7 ms·

All the goodness gone from tea (1688)

85 points by aleyan 9y ago

m52go 9y ago
Sounds like the beginning of a good story. I really want to know what happens with this guy. Would be nice if Google didn't limit the visibility of a book published in the 17th century.
- csours 9y ago
  I was able to see it by scrolling up and down some. https://imgur.com/gallery/cMoV7 https://imgur.com/gallery/cMoV7
  - alekratz 9y ago
    Oh wow, this worked for me too. Scroll up a page, then scroll down. You can keep reading.
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    "Life, after all, is a dream of little more than fifty years, and, whatever one does for a living, it is not difficult to stay so brief a course." sublime
    - manmal 9y ago
      Would you mind describing what the last few words mean?
      - B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago
        "stay the course" is mostly nautical, means keep going straight, i.e. staying on the wanted direction despite small variations of wind or waves.
      - solidsnack9000 9y ago
        Because life is not too long, we should be able to keep on track the whole while -- it's not outside our power.
      - archagon 9y ago
        "Dude, can you just not be evil for like 50 years?"
  - B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago
    (Thanks, also works for me.) "Risuke became stark mad, revealing his private affairs to the whole province." Tough times.
- grumblepeet 9y ago
  Spoiler alert: He dies in the end. Actually I think he lived, given that his "ghost" kept turning up to collect debts etc. But the net effect was he damaged his reputation so badly that he was never again allowed to show his face in polite company.
  - felipelemos 9y ago
    why did you do that?
- maxerickson 9y ago
  The book was published in 1959. Even though it is derivative, translations are eligible for copyright as an original work. http://bookwormtranslations.com/copyright-law-and-translation-what-you-need-to-know/ http://bookwormtranslations.com/copyright-law-and-translatio...
  - efficax 9y ago
    Even still, copyright should expire after less than 60 years.
    - chicago_wade 9y ago
      Well, regardless of what you and I agree that it should be, the rule is Life + 70 years in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries%27_copyright_lengths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries%27_copyright...
- SeanLuke 9y ago
  > Would be nice if Google didn't limit the visibility of a book published in the 17th century. This book was published in 1959. It is copyrighted by Cambridge University Press and is a translation by G. W. Sargent, with introduction and commentary.
csours 9y ago
> But if we live by subhuman means we might as well never have had the good fortune to be born human.
- solidsnack9000 9y ago
  This is related to the Buddhist notion of the "opportunity of human form". (In the Fukazazengi, Dōgen renders this as 人身の機要, read "ninshin no kiyō".) To be born a god is too easy -- it's hard to turn to the dharma when life is so good. To be born a demon or an animal is too difficult -- it's hard to practice the way when life is so tough. As a human, we recognize fairly early that life does not always go our way; but we are not without some control and capacity for disciplined practice. It's this combination that allows us to (a) want to practice and (b) be able to practice.
alekratz 9y ago
I like how this book reads. A quick google search yields no copies for sale; does anyone know where I might purchase a copy?
- jacobmischka 9y ago
  I can't find any new items for sale, but a quick search revealed some used copies. It also seems to be available in a few libraries, but surprisingly I haven't been able to find a public domain download yet. https://smile.amazon.com/Japanese-Family-Storehouse-Ihara-Saikaku/dp/B0000CK9PQ https://smile.amazon.com/Japanese-Family-Storehouse-Ihara-Sa...
- gcb0 9y ago
  author books: http://webcat.georgian.edu/search?q=au%3AIhara%2C+Saikaku%2C http://webcat.georgian.edu/search?q=au%3AIhara%2C+Saikaku%2C but sadly, no mentiom of the translator for the linked one, which I think is the most important part of your professed enjoyment.
  - gwern 9y ago
    The front page + preface say that this translation was done by G.W. Sargent, as does the Bookfinder information, with no mention of any other translators, so I think Sargent translated everything in the book. As Saikaku's style is light and witty, I imagine most translations would read a good deal like Sargent's. Searching, I can't find any scans or versions online aside from this unsatisfactory Google Books version. This also appears to be 1 of only 2 translations ever (the other being "Nippon eitaigura. The way to wealth. Translated by Soji Mizuno" 1955, but which is much shorter and the used copies also more expensive), and a brief excerpted story in Keene's _Anthology of Japanese Literature_. --- I've always meant to read Saikaku and didn't realize that _Storehouse_ was so hard to get (probably his third most famous work after _Amorous Man_ and _Women Who Loved Love_), so I've bought one of them off Amazon ($28.99) and I'll scan & upload it online at some point.
- thesmallestcat 9y ago
  I suggest using the excellent BookFinder.com, not Google or Amazon, to search for books. https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=&title=Nippon+Eitai-gura&lang=en&isbn=&submitBtn=Search&new_used=*&destination=us&currency=USD&mode=basic&st=sr&ac=qr https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=&title=Nippon+Eita... Shows a handful of copies from $50-100.
Bodell 9y ago
Reminds me of a quote from Citizen Kane. "It's no trick to make a lot of money if all you want... is to make a lot of money"
dfps 9y ago
For people who like this book, I would recommend the books by the haiku poets Issa and Basho (the books include Haiku here). And the Genji.
basicplus2 9y ago
Gaku Gold Ichi-bu ban-kin ND (1599), JNDA 09-30, Struck in the Keicho era, year 4 (1599), https://coins.ha.com/itm/japan/japan-gaku-gold-ichi-bu-ban-kin-nd-1599-/a/3015-24197.s#auction-description https://coins.ha.com/itm/japan/japan-gaku-gold-ichi-bu-ban-k...
Camillo 9y ago
If he made his money by honest means, he still wouldn't have been able to take it to the afterlife. I make a honest living, but, having no wife or children, I know that all the money I save will ultimately be enjoyed by people who hate and despise me.
iandanforth 9y ago
TLDR moral - "[I]f we live by subhuman means we might as well never have had the good fortune to be born human."
e12e 9y ago
You might be able to find it at a library: http://www.worldcat.org/title/japanese-family-storehouse-or-the-millionaires-gospel-modernised-nippon-eitai-gura-or-daifuku-shin-choja-kyo-1688/oclc/27169755 http://www.worldcat.org/title/japanese-family-storehouse-or-...
polm23 9y ago
Looks like the original title is 茶の十徳も一度に皆, and it can be read (in modernized Japanese) here: http://saikakuihara.blogspot.jp/2016/10/blog-post_57.html http://saikakuihara.blogspot.jp/2016/10/blog-post_57.html

85 points by aleyan 9y ago

Sounds like the beginning of a good story. I really want to know what happens with this guy. Would be nice if Google didn't limit the visibility of a book published in the 17th century.

csours 9y ago
I was able to see it by scrolling up and down some. https://imgur.com/gallery/cMoV7 https://imgur.com/gallery/cMoV7
- alekratz 9y ago
  Oh wow, this worked for me too. Scroll up a page, then scroll down. You can keep reading.
- wavefunction 9y ago
  "Life, after all, is a dream of little more than fifty years, and, whatever one does for a living, it is not difficult to stay so brief a course." sublime
  - manmal 9y ago
    Would you mind describing what the last few words mean?
    - B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago
      "stay the course" is mostly nautical, means keep going straight, i.e. staying on the wanted direction despite small variations of wind or waves.
    - solidsnack9000 9y ago
      Because life is not too long, we should be able to keep on track the whole while -- it's not outside our power.
    - archagon 9y ago
      "Dude, can you just not be evil for like 50 years?"
- B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago
  (Thanks, also works for me.) "Risuke became stark mad, revealing his private affairs to the whole province." Tough times.
grumblepeet 9y ago
Spoiler alert: He dies in the end. Actually I think he lived, given that his "ghost" kept turning up to collect debts etc. But the net effect was he damaged his reputation so badly that he was never again allowed to show his face in polite company.
- felipelemos 9y ago
  why did you do that?
maxerickson 9y ago
The book was published in 1959. Even though it is derivative, translations are eligible for copyright as an original work. http://bookwormtranslations.com/copyright-law-and-translation-what-you-need-to-know/ http://bookwormtranslations.com/copyright-law-and-translatio...
- efficax 9y ago
  Even still, copyright should expire after less than 60 years.
  - chicago_wade 9y ago
    Well, regardless of what you and I agree that it should be, the rule is Life + 70 years in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries%27_copyright_lengths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries%27_copyright...
SeanLuke 9y ago
> Would be nice if Google didn't limit the visibility of a book published in the 17th century. This book was published in 1959. It is copyrighted by Cambridge University Press and is a translation by G. W. Sargent, with introduction and commentary.

csours 9y ago

> But if we live by subhuman means we might as well never have had the good fortune to be born human.

solidsnack9000 9y ago
This is related to the Buddhist notion of the "opportunity of human form". (In the Fukazazengi, Dōgen renders this as 人身の機要, read "ninshin no kiyō".) To be born a god is too easy -- it's hard to turn to the dharma when life is so good. To be born a demon or an animal is too difficult -- it's hard to practice the way when life is so tough. As a human, we recognize fairly early that life does not always go our way; but we are not without some control and capacity for disciplined practice. It's this combination that allows us to (a) want to practice and (b) be able to practice.

alekratz 9y ago

I like how this book reads. A quick google search yields no copies for sale; does anyone know where I might purchase a copy?

jacobmischka 9y ago
I can't find any new items for sale, but a quick search revealed some used copies. It also seems to be available in a few libraries, but surprisingly I haven't been able to find a public domain download yet. https://smile.amazon.com/Japanese-Family-Storehouse-Ihara-Saikaku/dp/B0000CK9PQ https://smile.amazon.com/Japanese-Family-Storehouse-Ihara-Sa...
gcb0 9y ago
author books: http://webcat.georgian.edu/search?q=au%3AIhara%2C+Saikaku%2C http://webcat.georgian.edu/search?q=au%3AIhara%2C+Saikaku%2C but sadly, no mentiom of the translator for the linked one, which I think is the most important part of your professed enjoyment.
- gwern 9y ago
  The front page + preface say that this translation was done by G.W. Sargent, as does the Bookfinder information, with no mention of any other translators, so I think Sargent translated everything in the book. As Saikaku's style is light and witty, I imagine most translations would read a good deal like Sargent's. Searching, I can't find any scans or versions online aside from this unsatisfactory Google Books version. This also appears to be 1 of only 2 translations ever (the other being "Nippon eitaigura. The way to wealth. Translated by Soji Mizuno" 1955, but which is much shorter and the used copies also more expensive), and a brief excerpted story in Keene's _Anthology of Japanese Literature_. --- I've always meant to read Saikaku and didn't realize that _Storehouse_ was so hard to get (probably his third most famous work after _Amorous Man_ and _Women Who Loved Love_), so I've bought one of them off Amazon ($28.99) and I'll scan & upload it online at some point.
thesmallestcat 9y ago
I suggest using the excellent BookFinder.com, not Google or Amazon, to search for books. https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=&title=Nippon+Eitai-gura&lang=en&isbn=&submitBtn=Search&new_used=*&destination=us&currency=USD&mode=basic&st=sr&ac=qr https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=&title=Nippon+Eita... Shows a handful of copies from $50-100.

Bodell 9y ago

Reminds me of a quote from Citizen Kane. "It's no trick to make a lot of money if all you want... is to make a lot of money"

dfps 9y ago

For people who like this book, I would recommend the books by the haiku poets Issa and Basho (the books include Haiku here). And the Genji.

basicplus2 9y ago

Gaku Gold Ichi-bu ban-kin ND (1599), JNDA 09-30, Struck in the Keicho era, year 4 (1599), https://coins.ha.com/itm/japan/japan-gaku-gold-ichi-bu-ban-kin-nd-1599-/a/3015-24197.s#auction-description https://coins.ha.com/itm/japan/japan-gaku-gold-ichi-bu-ban-k...

Camillo 9y ago

If he made his money by honest means, he still wouldn't have been able to take it to the afterlife. I make a honest living, but, having no wife or children, I know that all the money I save will ultimately be enjoyed by people who hate and despise me.

iandanforth 9y ago

TLDR moral - "[I]f we live by subhuman means we might as well never have had the good fortune to be born human."

e12e 9y ago

You might be able to find it at a library: http://www.worldcat.org/title/japanese-family-storehouse-or-the-millionaires-gospel-modernised-nippon-eitai-gura-or-daifuku-shin-choja-kyo-1688/oclc/27169755 http://www.worldcat.org/title/japanese-family-storehouse-or-...

polm23 9y ago

Looks like the original title is 茶の十徳も一度に皆, and it can be read (in modernized Japanese) here: http://saikakuihara.blogspot.jp/2016/10/blog-post_57.html http://saikakuihara.blogspot.jp/2016/10/blog-post_57.html