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A 51% plutocracy is still a form of state governance that qualifies as fiat money and effectively can destroy the value of your coins if you resist. It is real

A 51% plutocracy is still a form of state governance that qualifies as fiat money and effectively can destroy the value of your coins if you resist. It is really no different than the government fining you for disobedience. There are philosophical theoretical arguments against this, not pragmatic ones.

AgentME 9y ago
A 51% attack means a lot of bad things can happen to bitcoin. Its value would probably crash if an individual got 51% of the power just because it is no longer truly decentralized, even if they don't abuse that power. Bitcoin was made with the idea that a 51% attack would be unlikely and unfeasible; as long as that holds, I'm not sure what value your comparison has. You might as well make a comparison to any other possible disaster. ("A solar flare is a form of state governance that will destroy the value of your coins...")
- jdietrich 9y ago
  The top four pools have ~55% of the total hashing power. They could orchestrate a 51% attack with a conference call. As we've seen with the BTH/SegWit2X fiasco, Bitcoin is anything but democratic or decentralised. A cartel is every bit as dangerous as a monopoly.
  - ric2b 9y ago
    And what exactly do you think a 51% attack can do? I'll tell you what: censor transactions and make double-spends. Not exactly end of Bitcoin danger, is it?
    - Dylan16807 9y ago
      If someone had unrestricted ability to double-spend, getting around any attempted countermeasures, they would be able to turn every exchange into a money printing machine. It's hard for me to see how it wouldn't be the end of Bitcoin.
- AFNobody 9y ago
  > A 51% attack means a lot of bad things can happen to bitcoin. Its value would probably crash if an individual got 51% of the power just because it is no longer truly decentralized, even if they don't abuse that power. That already has happened which is why people forked. You can live in denial of that fact if you wish but a minority "lost" the "vote" and forked Bitcoin. http://fortune.com/2017/08/07/bitcoin-cash-bch-hard-fork-blockchain-usd-coinbase/ http://fortune.com/2017/08/07/bitcoin-cash-bch-hard-fork-blo... The BTH/SegWit2X fiasco shows Bitcoin isn't "more" decentralized than an oligopoly, an oligarchy, or a plutocracy. > Bitcoin was made with the idea that a 51% attack would be unlikely and unfeasible; as long as that holds, I'm not sure what value your comparison has. You might as well make a comparison to any other possible disaster. ("A solar flare is a form of state governance that will destroy the value of your coins...") The fact pro-bitcoin people swear up and down that isn't the case doesn't change the fact that they are effectively the Bitcoin state and that 2-3 of them + a number of smaller people can effectively "vote" to pass "laws" that are enforced against your BTC regardless of your wishes. Simply because they don't outright steal your BTC doesn't change the fact you have to comply to retain the value of your BTC.
  - AgentME 9y ago
    What does bitcoin cash have to do with a 51% attack? Forks are a different type of thing than 51% attacks.
narrator 9y ago
Why would someone destroy all the value of their money and all the money power to mine just to troll? Sure a government might do that, but they could point a gun to every full node owners head and tell them to stop it just like China did. It would also be much cheaper.
- ben_w 9y ago
  Step 1: purchase, borrow, or steal enough hash power to reach 51% for a short while Step 2: use this power to force enough transactions to make yourself rich enough to keep 51% power indefinitely Step 3: profit
  - narrator 9y ago
    51% hash power lets you doublespend coins. It does not let you steal from wallets or change the block reward rules.
    - ben_w 9y ago
      Which is sufficient to allow you to do what I suggested. Spend coin once on paying for everything, and again on yourself to keep all the money to spend again later.
    - kazagistar 9y ago
      So you become like a government, able to print more currency at will?
baddox 9y ago
According to this definition, is there any possible form of widely-used money that isn’t fiat money?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- AFNobody 9y ago
  > According to this definition, is there any possible form of widely-used money that isn’t fiat money? There used to be 100+ years ago such as gold and silver coins where if you were able to remove them from Country A to Country B, then Country A could no longer enforce such financial penalties against you. This is what many of the cryptocoins _wanted_ to be. It needs to be a hard currency that leaves you immune to monetary policy and fines unless you are physically within the jurisdiction of the country.

AgentME 9y ago

A 51% attack means a lot of bad things can happen to bitcoin. Its value would probably crash if an individual got 51% of the power just because it is no longer truly decentralized, even if they don't abuse that power. Bitcoin was made with the idea that a 51% attack would be unlikely and unfeasible; as long as that holds, I'm not sure what value your comparison has. You might as well make a comparison to any other possible disaster. ("A solar flare is a form of state governance that will destroy the value of your coins...")

jdietrich 9y ago
The top four pools have ~55% of the total hashing power. They could orchestrate a 51% attack with a conference call. As we've seen with the BTH/SegWit2X fiasco, Bitcoin is anything but democratic or decentralised. A cartel is every bit as dangerous as a monopoly.
- ric2b 9y ago
  And what exactly do you think a 51% attack can do? I'll tell you what: censor transactions and make double-spends. Not exactly end of Bitcoin danger, is it?
  - Dylan16807 9y ago
    If someone had unrestricted ability to double-spend, getting around any attempted countermeasures, they would be able to turn every exchange into a money printing machine. It's hard for me to see how it wouldn't be the end of Bitcoin.
AFNobody 9y ago
> A 51% attack means a lot of bad things can happen to bitcoin. Its value would probably crash if an individual got 51% of the power just because it is no longer truly decentralized, even if they don't abuse that power. That already has happened which is why people forked. You can live in denial of that fact if you wish but a minority "lost" the "vote" and forked Bitcoin. http://fortune.com/2017/08/07/bitcoin-cash-bch-hard-fork-blockchain-usd-coinbase/ http://fortune.com/2017/08/07/bitcoin-cash-bch-hard-fork-blo... The BTH/SegWit2X fiasco shows Bitcoin isn't "more" decentralized than an oligopoly, an oligarchy, or a plutocracy. > Bitcoin was made with the idea that a 51% attack would be unlikely and unfeasible; as long as that holds, I'm not sure what value your comparison has. You might as well make a comparison to any other possible disaster. ("A solar flare is a form of state governance that will destroy the value of your coins...") The fact pro-bitcoin people swear up and down that isn't the case doesn't change the fact that they are effectively the Bitcoin state and that 2-3 of them + a number of smaller people can effectively "vote" to pass "laws" that are enforced against your BTC regardless of your wishes. Simply because they don't outright steal your BTC doesn't change the fact you have to comply to retain the value of your BTC.
- AgentME 9y ago
  What does bitcoin cash have to do with a 51% attack? Forks are a different type of thing than 51% attacks.

narrator 9y ago

Why would someone destroy all the value of their money and all the money power to mine just to troll? Sure a government might do that, but they could point a gun to every full node owners head and tell them to stop it just like China did. It would also be much cheaper.

ben_w 9y ago
Step 1: purchase, borrow, or steal enough hash power to reach 51% for a short while Step 2: use this power to force enough transactions to make yourself rich enough to keep 51% power indefinitely Step 3: profit
- narrator 9y ago
  51% hash power lets you doublespend coins. It does not let you steal from wallets or change the block reward rules.
  - ben_w 9y ago
    Which is sufficient to allow you to do what I suggested. Spend coin once on paying for everything, and again on yourself to keep all the money to spend again later.
  - kazagistar 9y ago
    So you become like a government, able to print more currency at will?

baddox 9y ago

According to this definition, is there any possible form of widely-used money that isn’t fiat money?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
AFNobody 9y ago
> According to this definition, is there any possible form of widely-used money that isn’t fiat money? There used to be 100+ years ago such as gold and silver coins where if you were able to remove them from Country A to Country B, then Country A could no longer enforce such financial penalties against you. This is what many of the cryptocoins _wanted_ to be. It needs to be a hard currency that leaves you immune to monetary policy and fines unless you are physically within the jurisdiction of the country.