4 ms·

America has one of the absurdly strictest set of laws for sex offenses against minors, Economist had a great cover story about this some weeks ago. Problem is,

by Jun8 16y ago

America has one of the absurdly strictest set of laws for sex offenses against minors, Economist had a great cover story about this some weeks ago. Problem is, since politicians know proposals for stricter laws bring in votes and no sane politician would ever propose a relaxation in these laws, they get stricter every year. On the other hand, the US has one of the most sexualized tweens and teen-agers I have ever seen, go to the Mall or the local movie house on a Friday and you would be shocked at how girls dress (and how their parents let them dress like this). And if that doesn't shock you, watch the movie Thirteen.

jrockway 16y ago
America has one of the absurdly strictest set of laws for sex offenses against minors no sane politician would ever propose a relaxation in these laws So what did the other countries, that have less-strict laws, do? (I agree that Americans are very afraid of anything sexual, but I'm not sure how this happened. Not everyone is a Puritan.)
- btilly 16y ago
  Back in the 90s I ran across an interesting survey. In America more people were privately concerned about excessive violence on TV than excessive sex. But most thought that their neighbors were more concerned about sex than violence. And therefore found it easier to publicly express their concerns about sex than violence. As to your question, laws and solutions vary widely by country. And other countries have their own problems. (See, for instance, the Catholic abuse scandal in Ireland.) But in general other countries have laws which serve the same purpose as US laws, however with less draconian details. For instance England and Canada have copied US legislation for registered sex offenders. However they do not seem to have implemented the sort of geographic rules on where they can live that lead to the infamous tent city under a bridge in Miami.
  - Kliment 16y ago
    I suppose you mean violence in your second sentence, not sex.
    - btilly 16y ago
      Uh yeah. Thanks. Fixed.
- ugh 16y ago
  So what did the other countries, that have less-strict laws, do? It’s not a very nice answer but I think they have less direct democracies and delegate many of the nitty-gritty details of the law to experts. That’s also why there is no death penalty in Europe.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    "That’s also why there is no death penalty in Europe." Really? My theory was always this: Frontier cultures need death penalties because they don't have the resources to keep very many people imprisoned for very long. The same is true of nomadic cultures, which explains a lot of things in the Bible. (The Old Testament has a long list of crimes, all of which are punishable with stoning. Which is sensible for a nomadic culture wandering around a region that has a lot of rocks lying around.) Vast parts of the US were a frontier culture until maybe 100 years ago (less in Alaska, more in Massachusetts). Europe has been settled for centuries. Which one do you predict would give up the death penalty first?
    - ugh 16y ago
      Abolishment of the death penalty is very recent development (last executions: France 1977, UK 1964, Germany 1949 – arguably a special case) and public opinion is not fundamentally different between Europe and the US. There is a interesting (but expensive) book about this topic [1], from the blurb: Movements to abolish the death penalty cannot be understood without a grasp of the dynamics of public opinion on capital punishment, which is driven not by rational consideration but by what cognitive psychologists call 'social intuitions,' deeply rooted attitudes which are resistant to change. European death-penalty abolitionists quickly realized the futility of trying to change public opinion on a mass scale, and instead devised strategies to accomplish abolition despite lingering public support for the death penalty. Pointing to the importance of political structures that allowed European abolitionists to bypass public opinion, this study assesses the prospects of the 'European model' of abolition in global perspective. [1] http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0230231985?tag=gerjoy-21&camp=1406&creative=6394&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=0230231985&adid=1DRWYT2134GART9GRQ6G&#38 http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0230231985?tag=gerjoy-21&camp...;
jacquesm 16y ago
I think a good part of that is the fundamentalist Christian ('reborn') element in the United States which commands a fair portion of the vote.
- splat 16y ago
  I'm not so sure about that. I would assume that these laws mostly command support from those who consider themselves "Law and Order" types. They're often conservative, but I think it crosses ideological lines pretty well.
- mike-cardwell 16y ago
  I would like to blame the religious nuts, but I live in the UK which has considerably less of them than the US, and things are pretty bad here too. There's a constant stream of fear mongering about paedophiles and terrorists in all mass media.
- gscott 16y ago
  I would suggest these organizations are more liberal thinkers where the child is better off under Government supervision. The Bible is pretty clear that the parent should raise the child. The Bible is really against "Caesar" taking a big part of your life for example 'spare the rod, spoil the child'.
  - timknauf 16y ago
    While verses in Proverbs arguably align with the sentiment, the actual "spare the rod, spoil the child" construction is from a poem by Samuel Butler.
    - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
      >While verses in Proverbs arguably align with the sentiment, Your wording here suggests that the argument for the sentiment is a weak one. I don't think that is born out. All verses in Proverbs with "rod" in them in NIV. # Proverbs 10:13 Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of him who lacks judgment. # Proverbs 13:24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him. # Proverbs 14:3 A fool's talk brings a rod to his back, but the lips of the wise protect them. # Proverbs 22:8 He who sows wickedness reaps trouble, and the rod of his fury will be destroyed. # Proverbs 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him. # Proverbs 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. # Proverbs 23:14 Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death. # Proverbs 26:3 A whip for the horse, a halter for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools! # Proverbs 29:15 The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.

by Jun8 16y ago

jrockway 16y ago

America has one of the absurdly strictest set of laws for sex offenses against minors no sane politician would ever propose a relaxation in these laws So what did the other countries, that have less-strict laws, do? (I agree that Americans are very afraid of anything sexual, but I'm not sure how this happened. Not everyone is a Puritan.)

btilly 16y ago
Back in the 90s I ran across an interesting survey. In America more people were privately concerned about excessive violence on TV than excessive sex. But most thought that their neighbors were more concerned about sex than violence. And therefore found it easier to publicly express their concerns about sex than violence. As to your question, laws and solutions vary widely by country. And other countries have their own problems. (See, for instance, the Catholic abuse scandal in Ireland.) But in general other countries have laws which serve the same purpose as US laws, however with less draconian details. For instance England and Canada have copied US legislation for registered sex offenders. However they do not seem to have implemented the sort of geographic rules on where they can live that lead to the infamous tent city under a bridge in Miami.
- Kliment 16y ago
  I suppose you mean violence in your second sentence, not sex.
  - btilly 16y ago
    Uh yeah. Thanks. Fixed.
ugh 16y ago
So what did the other countries, that have less-strict laws, do? It’s not a very nice answer but I think they have less direct democracies and delegate many of the nitty-gritty details of the law to experts. That’s also why there is no death penalty in Europe.
- philwelch 16y ago
  "That’s also why there is no death penalty in Europe." Really? My theory was always this: Frontier cultures need death penalties because they don't have the resources to keep very many people imprisoned for very long. The same is true of nomadic cultures, which explains a lot of things in the Bible. (The Old Testament has a long list of crimes, all of which are punishable with stoning. Which is sensible for a nomadic culture wandering around a region that has a lot of rocks lying around.) Vast parts of the US were a frontier culture until maybe 100 years ago (less in Alaska, more in Massachusetts). Europe has been settled for centuries. Which one do you predict would give up the death penalty first?
  - ugh 16y ago
    Abolishment of the death penalty is very recent development (last executions: France 1977, UK 1964, Germany 1949 – arguably a special case) and public opinion is not fundamentally different between Europe and the US. There is a interesting (but expensive) book about this topic [1], from the blurb: Movements to abolish the death penalty cannot be understood without a grasp of the dynamics of public opinion on capital punishment, which is driven not by rational consideration but by what cognitive psychologists call 'social intuitions,' deeply rooted attitudes which are resistant to change. European death-penalty abolitionists quickly realized the futility of trying to change public opinion on a mass scale, and instead devised strategies to accomplish abolition despite lingering public support for the death penalty. Pointing to the importance of political structures that allowed European abolitionists to bypass public opinion, this study assesses the prospects of the 'European model' of abolition in global perspective. [1] http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0230231985?tag=gerjoy-21&camp=1406&creative=6394&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=0230231985&adid=1DRWYT2134GART9GRQ6G&#38 http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0230231985?tag=gerjoy-21&camp...;

jacquesm 16y ago

I think a good part of that is the fundamentalist Christian ('reborn') element in the United States which commands a fair portion of the vote.

splat 16y ago
I'm not so sure about that. I would assume that these laws mostly command support from those who consider themselves "Law and Order" types. They're often conservative, but I think it crosses ideological lines pretty well.
mike-cardwell 16y ago
I would like to blame the religious nuts, but I live in the UK which has considerably less of them than the US, and things are pretty bad here too. There's a constant stream of fear mongering about paedophiles and terrorists in all mass media.
gscott 16y ago
I would suggest these organizations are more liberal thinkers where the child is better off under Government supervision. The Bible is pretty clear that the parent should raise the child. The Bible is really against "Caesar" taking a big part of your life for example 'spare the rod, spoil the child'.
- timknauf 16y ago
  While verses in Proverbs arguably align with the sentiment, the actual "spare the rod, spoil the child" construction is from a poem by Samuel Butler.
  - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
    >While verses in Proverbs arguably align with the sentiment, Your wording here suggests that the argument for the sentiment is a weak one. I don't think that is born out. All verses in Proverbs with "rod" in them in NIV. # Proverbs 10:13 Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of him who lacks judgment. # Proverbs 13:24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him. # Proverbs 14:3 A fool's talk brings a rod to his back, but the lips of the wise protect them. # Proverbs 22:8 He who sows wickedness reaps trouble, and the rod of his fury will be destroyed. # Proverbs 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him. # Proverbs 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. # Proverbs 23:14 Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death. # Proverbs 26:3 A whip for the horse, a halter for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools! # Proverbs 29:15 The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.