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> It was unclear how the authorities can monitor apps such as WhatsApp, which says its messages are supported by end-to-end encryption, meaning the company cann

> It was unclear how the authorities can monitor apps such as WhatsApp, which says its messages are supported by end-to-end encryption, meaning the company cannot read customers’ messages even if approached by law enforcement agencies. I'm both fascinated and perplexed too. Any ideas/theories? Does anyone know if you're governmentally required to install an SSL cert on your device, for example?

kihadi 9y ago
Unless they struck a deal with Whatsapp for people's private keys somehow, i think it's a huge bluff.
chatmasta 9y ago
Possibly some mobile telecoms route outgoing VOIP calls (regardless of originating application) via their own network? I haven't looked deeply into this, but I've noticed when I call someone on FB messenger, the call shows up in Phone.app with a long "social profile" address beginning with IBTU. Not sure if this address is internal to iOS or global. Also, is it even confirmed whatsapp encrypts voice calls in addition to texts?
honestlyreally 9y ago
Messages are e2e, was under the impression that calls aren't yet.
- ilyagr 9y ago
  According to https://blog.whatsapp.com/10000618/end-to-end-encryption https://blog.whatsapp.com/10000618/end-to-end-encryption, they are. Not sure who is wrong or lying. Or perhaps the"latest version" of WhatsApp will be prohibited.
  - honestlyreally 9y ago
    I stand corrected. Someone is obviously in the wrong here, have doubts whatsapp would ruin their business for a single country.
  - connorcpu 9y ago
    Perhaps the government only cares about who is calling who and for how long?
    - CogitoCogito 9y ago
      Aren't the whatsapp messages sent over the net? I.e. wouldn't it be the case that the government could only see the outgoing IP address? I guess if they were very well organized and working with the telecoms, they could then maybe see the outgoing IP and assuming that IP were on a telecom network they also controlled they could turn that into a person. This is all assuming that they could even figure out which encrypted outgoing packets correspond to calls (maybe this isn't too bad considering call streams would maybe have a fairly standard packet rate, etc.?). Either way seems pretty hard without direct help from whatsapp.
      - ihattendorf 9y ago
        It's Facebook that has access to this metadata. > While the metadata is encrypted during transit, phone numbers, timestamps, connection duration, connection frequency, as well as user location are being stored on the company’s servers [0] [0] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1701.06817.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1701.06817.pdf
e12e 9y ago
While WhatsApp (texts, anyway) are reportedly secure in terms of content - how about meta-data? Could they maybe trace texts, and see eg pairs of named Saudi nationals and recipients at Amnesty International - and could that be difficult without cooperation from WhatsApp (access to plaintext meta-data/routing information)? With suspicion, I suppose message content is only a handful of plied fingernails or threats against close family away?
tryingagainbro 9y ago
Just because they say that they can in a press release doesn't mean they really can. But what an average Saudi take a chance and risk jail or beheading b using Whatsapp to plan overthrowing the Saudi regime?
tinus_hn 9y ago
They will probably just record who you’re talking to. It is also possible to do a man-in-the-middle attack on WhatsApp but it is difficult.

kihadi 9y ago

Unless they struck a deal with Whatsapp for people's private keys somehow, i think it's a huge bluff.

chatmasta 9y ago

Possibly some mobile telecoms route outgoing VOIP calls (regardless of originating application) via their own network? I haven't looked deeply into this, but I've noticed when I call someone on FB messenger, the call shows up in Phone.app with a long "social profile" address beginning with IBTU. Not sure if this address is internal to iOS or global. Also, is it even confirmed whatsapp encrypts voice calls in addition to texts?

honestlyreally 9y ago

Messages are e2e, was under the impression that calls aren't yet.

ilyagr 9y ago
According to https://blog.whatsapp.com/10000618/end-to-end-encryption https://blog.whatsapp.com/10000618/end-to-end-encryption, they are. Not sure who is wrong or lying. Or perhaps the"latest version" of WhatsApp will be prohibited.
- honestlyreally 9y ago
  I stand corrected. Someone is obviously in the wrong here, have doubts whatsapp would ruin their business for a single country.
- connorcpu 9y ago
  Perhaps the government only cares about who is calling who and for how long?
  - CogitoCogito 9y ago
    Aren't the whatsapp messages sent over the net? I.e. wouldn't it be the case that the government could only see the outgoing IP address? I guess if they were very well organized and working with the telecoms, they could then maybe see the outgoing IP and assuming that IP were on a telecom network they also controlled they could turn that into a person. This is all assuming that they could even figure out which encrypted outgoing packets correspond to calls (maybe this isn't too bad considering call streams would maybe have a fairly standard packet rate, etc.?). Either way seems pretty hard without direct help from whatsapp.
    - ihattendorf 9y ago
      It's Facebook that has access to this metadata. > While the metadata is encrypted during transit, phone numbers, timestamps, connection duration, connection frequency, as well as user location are being stored on the company’s servers [0] [0] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1701.06817.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1701.06817.pdf

e12e 9y ago

While WhatsApp (texts, anyway) are reportedly secure in terms of content - how about meta-data? Could they maybe trace texts, and see eg pairs of named Saudi nationals and recipients at Amnesty International - and could that be difficult without cooperation from WhatsApp (access to plaintext meta-data/routing information)? With suspicion, I suppose message content is only a handful of plied fingernails or threats against close family away?

tryingagainbro 9y ago

Just because they say that they can in a press release doesn't mean they really can. But what an average Saudi take a chance and risk jail or beheading b using Whatsapp to plan overthrowing the Saudi regime?

tinus_hn 9y ago

They will probably just record who you’re talking to. It is also possible to do a man-in-the-middle attack on WhatsApp but it is difficult.