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If one cannot figure out how to setup a development environment (with detailed guides), how can one be expected to actually make a meaningful contribution in a

If one cannot figure out how to setup a development environment (with detailed guides), how can one be expected to actually make a meaningful contribution in a much more difficult domain like compiler development? For this purpose alone I think the current approach is something that Google will not get rid of. Moreover, why on Earth would Google want to create an external dependency for code-hosting and development like GitHub, that may go down anytime, making them lose a lot of time and money, especially since their own system is much more reliable (at least for internal usage) and they have all resources they need to maintain it? Finally, it is somewhat really silly to think that a giant corp like Google will develop something truly free and opensource, without their own interests above anything else, which obviously will become an issue sooner or later with the truly freedom spirit.

_asummers 9y ago
The article addresses how Google is already using GitHub with Kubernetes. Looks like Dart does too from glancing through the GitHub. If you're worried about external services going down, you make an internal mirror. You don't force the whole workflow to go through your system.
- arkadiytehgraet 9y ago
  Or you just don't use an external service in the first place, minimizing your dependencies, which you arguably should be doing anyway? They are not forcing anyone to go through their system, it is completely your choice to either help the project or not.
lloeki 9y ago
> If one cannot figure out how to setup a development environment (with detailed guides), how can one be expected to actually make a meaningful contribution in a much more difficult domain like compiler development? Because those are two unrelated fields, and one is distinctly not productive. From the issue: > I ran through the contributing workshop at Gophercon 2017. I even had gone through half of it before. I still needed help from one of the guides. It was still arduous. I speak as someone who has written Go professionally 40 hours a week for over 4 years - the contribution workflow deters me from contributing to the Go project. Even after signing up. The fact that it's so different from my everyday workflow just makes the hill to climb too steep. And comments (from current contributors no less): > I've been writing Go for over five years and contributing in various forms, and I have to say I agree. go-contrib-init makes things better, but the barrier to contributing to Go is a lot higher and with a different workflow from almost any other project that uses Go. > As successful as the contributor workshop at Gophercon was, it is an embarrassment to the language that we had to do it at all. Why did we need an entire seminar to teach hundreds of developers who already contribute to many other open source projects how to contribute to Go? Also, not every contribution to Go involves mucking with the compiler. > why on Earth would Google want to create an external dependency for code-hosting and development like GitHub Didn't they move to Google Code to GitHub, which is the live repo, Gerrit being used for code review only? If so, the dependency is already there. If not, why is it on GitHub at all? > Finally, it is somewhat really silly to think that a giant corp like Google will develop something truly free and opensource, without their own interests above anything else, which obviously will become an issue sooner or later with the truly freedom spirit. I think somehow this is tackled by the issue author, and is a canary of sorts: > Let's show the OSS world that Go really is a community-run project
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  >Because those are two unrelated fields, and one is distinctly not productive. Each of your examples is something like "I've been writing go for x years". Using a programming langauge does not make you a compiler hacker. Countless people have been using Linux for years but wouldn't be able to make a meaningful contribution to the kernel. I'm firmly convinced that having to learn something as straightforward and well documented as golang's contributor flow is a pretty good litmus test for potential contributors. >Didn't they move to Google Code to GitHub, which is the live repo, Gerrit being used for code review only? If so, the dependency is already there. If not, why is it on GitHub at all? Git repositories are distributed. It doesn't really matter where the upstream is, that has little bearing on project governance.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >Each of your examples is something like "I've been writing go for x years". Using a programming langauge does not make you a compiler hacker. Becoming an expert on whatever custom commit process a project has does even less to make you a compiler hacker.
    - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
      Correct, but the inverse is typically true - not being willing to learn anything but GitHub is a pretty good indicator for not being able to hack on compilers.
      - marssaxman 9y ago
        I am able to hack on compilers and have spent much of my career doing so. I am also able to learn new development workflows involving idiosyncratic tools which must be installed and configured; I've done it over and over, at many different jobs. You know what? It's a lot of work, and it's all basically a waste of time. I'll do it if I'm paid to, but I'm not interested in spending my free time that way.
  - lloeki 9y ago
coldtea 9y ago
>If one cannot figure out how to setup a development environment (with detailed guides), how can one be expected to actually make a meaningful contribution in a much more difficult domain like compiler development? One can become an expert on compiler developer precisely because they have little tolerant for convoluted BS processes.

_asummers 9y ago

The article addresses how Google is already using GitHub with Kubernetes. Looks like Dart does too from glancing through the GitHub. If you're worried about external services going down, you make an internal mirror. You don't force the whole workflow to go through your system.

arkadiytehgraet 9y ago
Or you just don't use an external service in the first place, minimizing your dependencies, which you arguably should be doing anyway? They are not forcing anyone to go through their system, it is completely your choice to either help the project or not.

lloeki 9y ago

> If one cannot figure out how to setup a development environment (with detailed guides), how can one be expected to actually make a meaningful contribution in a much more difficult domain like compiler development? Because those are two unrelated fields, and one is distinctly not productive. From the issue: > I ran through the contributing workshop at Gophercon 2017. I even had gone through half of it before. I still needed help from one of the guides. It was still arduous. I speak as someone who has written Go professionally 40 hours a week for over 4 years - the contribution workflow deters me from contributing to the Go project. Even after signing up. The fact that it's so different from my everyday workflow just makes the hill to climb too steep. And comments (from current contributors no less): > I've been writing Go for over five years and contributing in various forms, and I have to say I agree. go-contrib-init makes things better, but the barrier to contributing to Go is a lot higher and with a different workflow from almost any other project that uses Go. > As successful as the contributor workshop at Gophercon was, it is an embarrassment to the language that we had to do it at all. Why did we need an entire seminar to teach hundreds of developers who already contribute to many other open source projects how to contribute to Go? Also, not every contribution to Go involves mucking with the compiler. > why on Earth would Google want to create an external dependency for code-hosting and development like GitHub Didn't they move to Google Code to GitHub, which is the live repo, Gerrit being used for code review only? If so, the dependency is already there. If not, why is it on GitHub at all? > Finally, it is somewhat really silly to think that a giant corp like Google will develop something truly free and opensource, without their own interests above anything else, which obviously will become an issue sooner or later with the truly freedom spirit. I think somehow this is tackled by the issue author, and is a canary of sorts: > Let's show the OSS world that Go really is a community-run project

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
>Because those are two unrelated fields, and one is distinctly not productive. Each of your examples is something like "I've been writing go for x years". Using a programming langauge does not make you a compiler hacker. Countless people have been using Linux for years but wouldn't be able to make a meaningful contribution to the kernel. I'm firmly convinced that having to learn something as straightforward and well documented as golang's contributor flow is a pretty good litmus test for potential contributors. >Didn't they move to Google Code to GitHub, which is the live repo, Gerrit being used for code review only? If so, the dependency is already there. If not, why is it on GitHub at all? Git repositories are distributed. It doesn't really matter where the upstream is, that has little bearing on project governance.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Each of your examples is something like "I've been writing go for x years". Using a programming langauge does not make you a compiler hacker. Becoming an expert on whatever custom commit process a project has does even less to make you a compiler hacker.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
    Correct, but the inverse is typically true - not being willing to learn anything but GitHub is a pretty good indicator for not being able to hack on compilers.
    - marssaxman 9y ago
      I am able to hack on compilers and have spent much of my career doing so. I am also able to learn new development workflows involving idiosyncratic tools which must be installed and configured; I've done it over and over, at many different jobs. You know what? It's a lot of work, and it's all basically a waste of time. I'll do it if I'm paid to, but I'm not interested in spending my free time that way.
- lloeki 9y ago

coldtea 9y ago

>If one cannot figure out how to setup a development environment (with detailed guides), how can one be expected to actually make a meaningful contribution in a much more difficult domain like compiler development? One can become an expert on compiler developer precisely because they have little tolerant for convoluted BS processes.