7 ms·

Not to mention the many (ex) friends working for "defense" contractors. Ex because I really can't be friends with them any longer. Evil quotes deployed becaus

Not to mention the many (ex) friends working for "defense" contractors. Ex because I really can't be friends with them any longer. Evil quotes deployed because calling it defense is a farce considering what the systems they are developing are used for.

nextlevelwizard 9y ago
If persons employer determines your friendship status with them, then maybe they are better off not being associated with you.
- molf 9y ago
  It goes both ways. It is hard to be friends with someone that makes fundamentally different moral choices.
  - _pmf_ 9y ago
    > It is hard to be friends with someone that makes fundamentally different moral choices. It's also how we arrive at a common baseline for morality.
- robin_reala 9y ago
  That’s a misreading of OP’s point: it’s not the employer that they have a problem with, it’s the morality of their employment.
  - nextlevelwizard 9y ago
    Except that is literally what he said. As soon as they work for defense contractors they are no longer considered friends. Presumably no matter what they do, as long as they are associated they are guilty. Be it cleaning floors, writing software, testing hardware, or what have you.
    - geomark 9y ago
      It's not quite that abrupt. I used to work for a defense contractor. I started as a rather naive young engineer. I worked hard for many years on projects that were not weapons systems or even fielded systems, mostly R&D and advanced technology. It was very cool technology. But over the years I gradually became more and more aware of the kind of systems my employer was developing. And although I did not work directly on those systems I knew that some of the technology I was developing would eventually find its way into future versions of those systems. Colleagues would always say "We aren't building bombs so it's ok." But what we were building were key subsystems used for targeting. I eventually left for the non-defense world. So it isn't that friends suddenly became ex's overnight. It is after coming to the realization that over time they either had sold out their ethics in order to make good money working on cool technology regardless of what it is used for, or that they really bought the indoctrination that what they were doing was important patriotic work. As for the latter, I heard that stuff a lot, and I always thought it was a bad sign that the boss had to kept telling you that you are doing important work. You weren't privy to much beyond your own compartmented subsystem but over time you could eventually piece together the bigger story. As for the former, that's similar to the non-defense world where a lot of smart engineers are developing shady stuff, except that it isn't resuling in thousands of people in far away lands being killed week in and week out as a result.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- geomark 9y ago
  I suppose that is true. Then they won't have to be bothered by being asked to consider what the systems they are developing are used for. They won't have to rationalize that the many thousands of children who are killed as collateral damage when the systems they designed are used to attack terrorists in far away lands are a justifiable cost of maintaining the American way of life.
murderfs 9y ago
Well, given the effectiveness that most defense contractors seem to display, they might be doing a humanitarian service. If the government is going to spend that money regardless, it's probably better that it goes into planes that can't fly and boats that dissolve in water than actually effective projects.
- mbrock 9y ago
  Sabotage is a venerable tradition, but I basically don't think it's better for anyone to be murdered by a knife that's rusty.
Aeolun 9y ago
But what if I want to be prepared in case aliens invade the earth?
- TomK32 9y ago
  Raptor Jesus will save us...
apersona 9y ago
You can't deny that lots of innovations came from defense research. APARNET came from the DoD. I personally wouldn't want to work in defense, but I wouldn't disrepect people working in there either.
taway_1212 9y ago
I never understood the disdain for working in the arms sector. After all, weapons are just tools, it's the politicians who decide what to do with them. You should despise the king, not the gunsmith.
- 3131s 9y ago
  Just like the guy pulling the lever in the gas chamber.
  - taway_1212 9y ago
    There's a big difference though. A country without a solid defence sector is not really sovereign - it has to buy its weapons from other countries, which can cut the supply at any time, or just refuse to sell you current-gen tech altogether. There simply would be no USA without its defense sector - it is essential to its existence. Citizens of other countries (France, UK, Sweden etc.) understand that and you don't hear them dumping on their defense companies. It's pretty much only Americans who are so out of touch with the realities of the world that they think weapons are evil and rest of the world will just leave them be (even if they can't defend themselves).
    - robin_reala 9y ago
      Well, as a citizen of the UK who’s currently living in Sweden, I’ll provide the counterpoint that I refuse to work with any of our morally corrupt ‘defence’ industries and always bring it up as a red line with any company I interview at.
      - taway_1212 9y ago
        Which industry is not morally corupt then? I can see maybe single companies in given industries not behaving like total assholes, but on the whole I think all industries are rotten.
        robin_reala 9y ago

nextlevelwizard 9y ago

If persons employer determines your friendship status with them, then maybe they are better off not being associated with you.

molf 9y ago
It goes both ways. It is hard to be friends with someone that makes fundamentally different moral choices.
- _pmf_ 9y ago
  > It is hard to be friends with someone that makes fundamentally different moral choices. It's also how we arrive at a common baseline for morality.
robin_reala 9y ago
That’s a misreading of OP’s point: it’s not the employer that they have a problem with, it’s the morality of their employment.
- nextlevelwizard 9y ago
  Except that is literally what he said. As soon as they work for defense contractors they are no longer considered friends. Presumably no matter what they do, as long as they are associated they are guilty. Be it cleaning floors, writing software, testing hardware, or what have you.
  - geomark 9y ago
    It's not quite that abrupt. I used to work for a defense contractor. I started as a rather naive young engineer. I worked hard for many years on projects that were not weapons systems or even fielded systems, mostly R&D and advanced technology. It was very cool technology. But over the years I gradually became more and more aware of the kind of systems my employer was developing. And although I did not work directly on those systems I knew that some of the technology I was developing would eventually find its way into future versions of those systems. Colleagues would always say "We aren't building bombs so it's ok." But what we were building were key subsystems used for targeting. I eventually left for the non-defense world. So it isn't that friends suddenly became ex's overnight. It is after coming to the realization that over time they either had sold out their ethics in order to make good money working on cool technology regardless of what it is used for, or that they really bought the indoctrination that what they were doing was important patriotic work. As for the latter, I heard that stuff a lot, and I always thought it was a bad sign that the boss had to kept telling you that you are doing important work. You weren't privy to much beyond your own compartmented subsystem but over time you could eventually piece together the bigger story. As for the former, that's similar to the non-defense world where a lot of smart engineers are developing shady stuff, except that it isn't resuling in thousands of people in far away lands being killed week in and week out as a result.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
geomark 9y ago
I suppose that is true. Then they won't have to be bothered by being asked to consider what the systems they are developing are used for. They won't have to rationalize that the many thousands of children who are killed as collateral damage when the systems they designed are used to attack terrorists in far away lands are a justifiable cost of maintaining the American way of life.

murderfs 9y ago

Well, given the effectiveness that most defense contractors seem to display, they might be doing a humanitarian service. If the government is going to spend that money regardless, it's probably better that it goes into planes that can't fly and boats that dissolve in water than actually effective projects.

mbrock 9y ago
Sabotage is a venerable tradition, but I basically don't think it's better for anyone to be murdered by a knife that's rusty.

Aeolun 9y ago

But what if I want to be prepared in case aliens invade the earth?

TomK32 9y ago
Raptor Jesus will save us...

apersona 9y ago

You can't deny that lots of innovations came from defense research. APARNET came from the DoD. I personally wouldn't want to work in defense, but I wouldn't disrepect people working in there either.

taway_1212 9y ago

I never understood the disdain for working in the arms sector. After all, weapons are just tools, it's the politicians who decide what to do with them. You should despise the king, not the gunsmith.

3131s 9y ago
Just like the guy pulling the lever in the gas chamber.
- taway_1212 9y ago
  There's a big difference though. A country without a solid defence sector is not really sovereign - it has to buy its weapons from other countries, which can cut the supply at any time, or just refuse to sell you current-gen tech altogether. There simply would be no USA without its defense sector - it is essential to its existence. Citizens of other countries (France, UK, Sweden etc.) understand that and you don't hear them dumping on their defense companies. It's pretty much only Americans who are so out of touch with the realities of the world that they think weapons are evil and rest of the world will just leave them be (even if they can't defend themselves).
  - robin_reala 9y ago
    Well, as a citizen of the UK who’s currently living in Sweden, I’ll provide the counterpoint that I refuse to work with any of our morally corrupt ‘defence’ industries and always bring it up as a red line with any company I interview at.
    - taway_1212 9y ago
      Which industry is not morally corupt then? I can see maybe single companies in given industries not behaving like total assholes, but on the whole I think all industries are rotten.
      - robin_reala 9y ago