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Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices
- notatoad 9y agocontext: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41331152 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41331152 (the spanish police seem to be raiding anything that could potentially be related to catalonian independence)
- seorphates 9y agoMy felines are hurt by this and I want it back right meow. (yes, knows it's Catalina but doesn't care)
- kartan 9y agoThe internet is not isolated from the physical world. Some times "the cloud" seems like an ethereal place, but in the end there are servers somewhere with hardware that can break, that needs maintenance and that can be confiscated by the government. Technology doesn't solves political problems, it just makes governments more efficient.
- tryingagainbro 9y agoThis has very little to do with internet freedom etc; Catalonia has threatened to leave Spain via a referendum. There are very few things countries will not do to keep the country together. Think of "war on terror" on steroids.
- dogma1138 9y agoYes just like England carpetbombed Glasgo to stop the Scottish referendum. /s
- tryingagainbro 9y agoCan I mention a few counterexamples? I guess no need to because you know. Yeah in 2017 some things are no longer accepted in the heart of Europe but Yugoslavia, Ukraine etc are recent examples. IIRC, you have the right to leave in peace, use your language, autonomy and not be discriminated but declaring independence is quite a few steps above that.
- whatshisface 9y agoHowever, freedom of speech is an inalienable human right (and in need of most protection when it's political speech) - so regardless of whether you think that government's power derives from the people, they should be allowed to talk about the referendum.
- notspanishflu 9y agoEverybody can speak about the referendum in Spain. You can't say there isn't freedom of speech in Spain when even people convicted for terrorism speaks in public media everyday.
- justin66 9y agoYou do realize that the subject matter of the article this thread is about involves free speech, right? Spanish authorities asked the registry to block domain names that were being used to spread information about an upcoming referendum for independence. I can understand why the opposition would be pretty pissed off about that infringement on their free speech rights.
- notspanishflu 9y agoThat's illegal propaganda, not free-speech.
- justin66 9y agoIt might or might not be of interest, but there's a pretty profound difference between your attitude and the attitude of an American, and the approach of American constitutional law. Political speech, which is broadly defined, is the most highly protected sort of speech we have under our constitution. But maybe you were joking or something. Saying "Everybody can speak about the referendum in Spain" and then immediately contradicting yourself is ironic.
- kiliancs 9y ago
- iagooar 9y agoIt's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto suspending the Catalonian autonomy and basically abandoning any democratic dialog. Now, there is no going back. I wish the best of luck to my friends in Catalonia. Shall they be allowed to express their desire to leave or stay in Spain in peace. I wish no one to get hurt during these turbulent weeks.
- pfortuny 9y agoWell, well, well, well... You should read the constitution and compare it to what the catalonian establishment is doing. The rule of law applies also to politicians.
- fra 9y agoThe democracy is weak because of the constitution. It should be amended.
- RobertoG 9y agois it not the law based on the popular will, theoretically? Because it seems to me that these people are asking to vote.
- notspanishflu 9y agoThey asking to vote outside the Law, not only European, or Spanish Law, but the Catalan Law too.
- iagooar 9y agoOh, you are from Gijón. Using the constitution as some sort of shield / holy bible that can't ever possibly be changed IS what show the weakness of Spanish democracy. In the end, governments are there to serve their people. They don't make sense as entities on their own. They represent a group of people who chooses to be represented by their government. If the government attacks the people and refuses to hear to what people have to say, you need to resort to not following the dogma.
- plehoux 9y agoI'm amazed by how the Spanish government manages all of this. Haven't they study independence movements in Canada and the U.K.? The only reason Quebec is not a country is that the Canadian government kept a 'somewhat' cool head during the two referendums. Breaking Point is a damn good CBC documentary about the Quebec referendum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl7lOundk4Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl7lOundk4Y
- ghostDancer 9y agoIt's Spain, the politicians in the government are using it to cover that they have more than 800 members of their party being under investigation or even prosecuted from corruption. The governing party is being investigated for having using black money to pay for elections among other things like getting rich. They embrace themselves inside the Spanish flag and the unity of the country.
- dawkins 9y agoTo be fair the regional government is even more corrupt and do exactly the same thing. Even more and also play the victim card
- mabbo 9y agoWe had something like 200,000 people come to Montreal to "protest" in a unity march: "Please don't leave. Please stay in Canada". I didn't see that sort of thing during the Scottish referendum, and I sure don't see it in Catalan.
- 627467 9y agoThis is a good example of the breakdown of the westphalian concept of nation-state. The people have the right to divorce and the state has the right to maintain its unity against all. It's like Spain is trying to push Catalonians to violence.
- adventured 9y ago> This is a good example of the breakdown of the westphalian concept of nation-state. Your premise is contradictory. You're claiming that Catalonia trying to form its own nation-state is a proof that the nation-state is breaking down. The exact opposite is the case: the nation-state is so desirable that Catalonia wants to form its own.
- 627467 9y agoI'm highlighting the failure of the Spanish nation-state to resolve this situation or least de-escalating it.
- Markoff 9y agowatch Barbra Streisand effect live prior this mess, most of the people were against leaving, after this I am not so sure...
- gfiorav 9y agoI know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but: You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corruption. Public workers have been pressured to accept participation in the referendum (which is ilegal to do). And just to finish: if you’re going to reference any prior “referendum” know that it’s not only ilegal like this one (thus no observers, nor accurate census) but also take into account participation (usually very low). In short: please be skeptical about whatever you hear from either side. There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence.
- tomjen3 9y agoWe should of course be sceptical, but at the same time it seems that Spain is active so heavy handed in this and related matters that they are almost trying to make this go violent.
- gfiorav 9y agoThis is the thing: the referendum is ilegal according to constitution (agreed on by Catalans in the 70s). We can debate if it should or should not be ilegal, but it’s a different thing. These actions are taken to avoid violating the constitutional order, not the vote directly. If the constitution is being infringed, you can’t make exceptions.
- nsnick 9y agoWe can also debate whether the response of the Spanish government is out of line. Nothing will bring about Catalan independence faster than heavy handed repression by the Spanish government.
- gfiorav 9y agoMy point is: How would you react if a regional government (which represent 30-40% of the people there) in your country stops obeying the constitution? Would you not stop the privacy infringement that is using census data ilegally? Would you not protect the 60-70% who didn’t vote the ruling party?
- monodeldiablo 9y agoWhen I was dating a Croatian girl, I asked her which country reminded her most of pre-war Yugoslavia. "Spain," she said, without skipping a beat. "It's eerily similar. All power and wealth flowing to the capital in the center of the country? Check. Generations-long repression of regional, cultural, and linguistic diversity? Check. Awkward tendency to rewrite history to avoid open discussion of WWII-era atrocities? Check. A staunch refusal by the central government to engage in meaningful dialogue with aggrieved regions and peoples? Check. Brutal repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations, inspiring ever-more-radical nationalism... All the ingredients are there." "Nah," I said. "Spain's a stable republic! There's no way it'll descend into a Yugoslavia-style death fest." She just arched her eyebrow. "War was unthinkable to us right up until the moment the JNA started shelling us. It's a miracle Spain's still one country, honestly." The more I learn -- about both Yugoslavia and Spain -- the more I fear she was right.
- tomjen3 9y agoThe country that looks most likely to split (in Europe) to me is Belgium, not Spain. But then predicting geopolitical changes is the same as predicting Black Swans: the Berlin wall will stand forever right until the moment it wont; The Soviet Union is just there until it is no more; nothing can stand the Nazi war machine; those scrappy colonists have no chance against the English empire.
- dazc 9y agoYugoslavia and Spain are two different scenarios entirely.
- sunshi23 9y agoWhat a waste of click bait opportunity!
- victornomad 9y agoisnt it the second time this has been posted today? :/
- descala 9y agoThis is an example of a seized web site http://ref1oct.cat/ http://ref1oct.cat/ it had information about the poll. The JS in the source is really sad, one of the options click baits you to an Spanish sports newspaper.
- nsnick 9y agoWow the coat of arms of the Spanish government still has a fasces on it? You learn something every day.
- elros 9y agoSpain has been an actual fascist state, so historically this is unrelated, but you may find it interesting to know that it's also present quite prominently at the US Congress[0] as well as in the US Senate's seal[1]. [0] http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_sociopol/icke110_01a.jpg http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_sociopol/icke110_... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_United_States_Senate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_United_States_Sena...
- notspanishflu 9y agoThe Coat of Arms of Spain doesn't have fasces. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Spain
- Oletros 9y agoThat is not the Spanish coat of arms, it is the Guardia Civil coat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Guard_(Spain) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Guard_(Spain)
- rcarmo 9y agoFortunately, https://http.cat https://http.cat is still up. Don’t know what I would do without it when I try to explain HTTP to business decision makers.
- tobltobs 9y agoUnder the assumption that for the next 10-20 years Catalonia wouldn't be allowed to join the EU, could someone of the pro separate group explain how a independent state of Catalonia is supposed to survive?
- oriol16 9y agoAsk UK. There are 10 countries as many outside in EU as inside. I am pro EU, but if this has to be in the way of a more important and noble interest, then we stay out.
- Oletros 9y agoThe problem here is not the secession, it is the right to vote. I'm Catalan, I'm against the independence, one reason is because I don't give a shit about being Spanish or Catalan, another is because the politicians here are exactly equally corrupts than the Spanish ones and economics ones. But what I want is the right to have a referendum and vote no. Funny thing is that if the entral government wanted to destroy the independist movement they could have modified the Constitution and allow that consult, the majority here is against the independence. What a majority wants here is the right to vote
- notspanishflu 9y agoSure. Just a coincidence that kind of speech 'we just want to vote', 'I'm going to say no but want to vote in this illegal referendum', I only hear it from secessionists.
- monodeldiablo 9y agoThere's no better way to change his vote to a definite "yes" than by refusing to allow him to voice his opinion. If Madrid listened half as well as it sneered, I suspect they'd have better relations with all their immediate neighbors.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
- Mc_Big_G 9y agoFunny to see all these Non-Spanish commenters that think they know what they're talking about. My wife is from Barcelona. I just spent 2 weeks there. Most Catalonians think the split, and the minority of people seeking it are fucking stupid. They are the Trumpsters of Spain. Truly strange to see most people here supporting the separatists. I don't necessarily agree with Spain's methods of dealing with this but many of you have got it wrong. Like, badly wrong.
- gfiorav 9y agoYeah, it’s the advantage of seeming the oppressed one... let’s hope that common sense prevails :)
- oriol16 9y agoPlease enlighten us the stupid.
- icebraining 9y agoIf not being Spanish prevents one from having informed opinions, what makes you right? Since we measuring Spanish penises, I'm half-Spanish myself and I find the characterization of "Trumpists" to be absurd. Yes, they are probably a minority, but so what? As for finding them fucking stupid, that's just politics, especially nowadays. Lots of people find Podemos to be fucking stupid, yet they still got 20%+ of the whole population vote. In any case, people here are arguing for the principle, not the people. The analogy is not with supporting Trump, it's with defending his right to run at all. Now, the cases are different, but the point stands: defending the right to a referendum is not the same as defending a certain result.
- IncRnd 9y agoA constitution defines a government, and it is a poorly written constitution that is instead used to limit people's determinism.
- justin66 9y agoFor the less familiar who want to get up to speed on some of the medium-term background, this actually isn't bad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence
- notspanishflu 9y agoIt's really funny listening to the President of the government of Catalonia talking about repression when his salary is 145.471 euros, and the President of the government of Spain salary is 78.185,04 euros. Yep, the public salary of many presidents of a part of Spain is bigger than the president of the whole. That's for give you a picture of the current craziness.
- bassman9000 9y agoYou won't get many responses because the PC thing is to side with Catalonia, but this is the whole story: a money grab scheme. It's been going on for ages. With B- debt rating, collapsing health care system, and massive public spending on things like the one you mention, they simply need money. Plan post-independence is to seize all public assets belonging to the Spanish state (funds, buildings, public companies, ...), while retaining their first customer (the rest of Spain), pay no tariffs (stay in EU), and no taxes to central state. Before anyone answer with "but the Spanish state too": yes, same shit, which doesn't invalidate anything I said. edit: wording
- notspanishflu 9y agoThe 'original sin' is the political over-representation of the nationalist parties because both PSOE and PP have needed their support for the Spanish government most of the time. In exchange of too much concessions, of course.
- bassman9000 9y agospot on. This is a national crisis, and everyone had their part on it
- Oletros 9y ago> The 'original sin' is the political over-representation of the nationalist parties Or you don't know about Spanish election system or you'r just lying. I think is the former. There is no over-representation of nationalist parties, there is a over-representation of both majority parties, PP and PSOE. Almost all the provinces have 3 diputates and the third pary doesn't have any representation.
- 6t6t6t6 9y agoAt this point, what is happening in Catalonia is not a fight for Independence; it is a fight for Democracy and against the authoritarianism of the central government. Catalan institutions have been raided, Catalan members of the government have been arrested, and their crime is to work towards allowing Catalans vote about their future.
- snvzz 9y agoWhat happened here: - judge told .cat TLD to take over some domains, setting them to display a spanish police landing page. - .cat complied. - Judge told .cat TLD to censor any domain that does support the referendum in any way. - .cat replied that they run a TLD, that it's not their job to act as a censorship agency, inspecting each domain and disabling those that host websites that talk about topics that a judge specified are forbidden. - .cat notified the ICANN of the situation they're in: https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/lineros-to-marby-17sep17-en.pdf https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/lineros... - police raided the TLD office, and arrested its CTO at his home. This is in some EU member country in western Europe.